The Problem With “Moderates”

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

I don't agree with most of what you said (or rather the viewpoint you're saying it from) but this

White supremacy, National Socialism, and Fascism have zero institutional support. There are no large organizations of relevance, no corporations or governments pushing these ideologies. Just because you grew up in a racist town and saw some transphobic things on twitter doesn’t mean you live in a “white power” state.

Is pointedly correct. Beyond correct, even. People who say "POC" (I hate this term so much) have no power in the USA clearly have not paid attention to social media, the news, or the government the past 10 or so years.

A share of the media market somewhat proportional to their human numbers, does not at all prove a share of all power. An 10 years isn't that significant, considering people's trajectory to power or prison begins in childhood.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

... if people ACTUALLY cared about things like this, like truly, genuinely cared, there would be far less identity politics and much more government overthrowing.

So if people cared about race or gender discrimination, they'd prove it by overthrowing the government?

We can infer that NOBODY cares enough about ANYTHING for your taste. Well except Donald Trump, who cared enough about his own social status to attempt an overthrow of the government.

In my opinion, political violence is proof of someone taking their own politics too seriously!

[Hjallvinter]

I don't agree with most of what you said (or rather the viewpoint you're saying it from) but this



Is pointedly correct. Beyond correct, even. People who say "POC" (I hate this term so much) have no power in the USA clearly have not paid attention to social media, the news, or the government the past 10 or so years.

A share of the media market somewhat proportional to their human numbers, does not at all prove a share of all power. An 10 years isn't that significant, considering people's trajectory to power or prison begins in childhood.

The media market is disproportional to their relative portion of the population. You would think we live in Africa by watching the television.

You haven't addressed the overt policies in government, academia, or business explicitly designed to favor nonwhites at the expense of European descended populations. That is not equality, it's special treatment rooted in hostile Antiwhitism. Special treatment cannot exist without someone getting treated worse, and the demands for supplications are only increasing.

[Ainland]

It's the moderates who are actually getting stuff done, winning elections, making real progress. Actually helping real peoples real lives. It is those who refuse to negotiate or compromise,
; who demand only their own way and won't accept a slower rate of progress, who would see low income people suffer more so that they can indulge in their own ideological purity.

There's some irony in then blaming moderates for actually winning elections and achieving some change, rather than none at all.

[Shu Chengdu]

I dunno, I tend to prefer liberal democracy to the kind of government that extremism and unchecked radicalism usually results in. A lot of moderate folks, not all of them but a decent portion of them, tend to agree that climate change and wealth inequality are big problems.

This.

I'm a liberal Democrat myself and to me moderates do have a place in our government and society. The only people who I have little use for are the center-center fence straddlers who swing like a pendulum.

[Astral Traveller]

I think OP makes a mistake by correlating action vs talking as radical vs moderate. The two are not correlated to each other. One does not have to beat up a CEO to improve the situation. Conscious actions, such as buying local and lowering your carbon footprint, are moderate. The risk of pushing a more radical agenda is that, at one point, it infringes the rights of people and ends up as authoritarianism.

Companies get rich in products because people buy said products. If you want to lower your carbon footprint and support local, smaller companies, then buy local.

[The Disorder]

Well, too bad!

I'm a moderate. And the reason why I'm a moderate is because I dislike authoritarianism. It is a threat to liberty.

I want goverment that grinds to a halt, I want obstructive politics, I want watered-down compromise, and I want the conceited and arrogant politicians (on both sides of the aisle) to never get their way. Centralized authority deserves to be marginalized, so for the good of everyone's liberty who will ever exist, I'll stick to the center. I will vote for whatever side is necessary, to best obstruct authoritarianism. All too often, nothing is exactly the right thing for government to do.

[Kowani]

Well, too bad!

I'm a moderate. And the reason why I'm a moderate is because I dislike authoritarianism. It is a threat to liberty.

I want goverment that grinds to a halt, I want obstructive politics, I want watered-down compromise, and I want the conceited and arrogant politicians (on both sides of the aisle) to never get their way. Centralized authority deserves to be marginalized, so for the good of everyone's liberty who will ever exist, I'll stick to the center. I will vote for whatever side is necessary, to best obstruct authoritarianism. All too often, nothing is exactly the right thing for government to do.

We literally live on the edge of global ecological collapse, poverty is on the rise, wealth inequality continues to skyrocket-how on earth is Government doing nothing a good outcome lmao

[The Disorder]

We literally live on the edge of global ecological collapse, poverty is on the rise, wealth inequality continues to skyrocket-how on earth is Government doing nothing a good outcome lmao

Human activity is indeed responsible for global warming & climate change - but respectfully, the actual linchpin of Earth's ecology is photosynthesis. Oxygen production (and by proxy, all life) lives and dies by the single factor of photosynthesis - and that process is in no danger whatsoever. Sensitive species may be in trouble, but plants LOVE carbon dioxide and high temperatures. Earth has gone through over a dozen mass extinctions before even the dinosaurs got their turn. Still, I will concede that rising sea levels & more violent weather systems are human problems, and we could be doing a better job sequestrating global warming.

Income inequality is a problem, yes - but let's not forget that objective standards of living for the lower class in the developed world have risen substantially. Plumbing and electric light were status symbols for the super-rich, and that wasn't long ago at all in human history. A hundred years ago, no upper-middle-class individuals had air conditioning. And the average high school student knows more about the universe today, than the smartest people on Earth did just 200 years ago. Progress is being made.

Besides, governments cannot wave a magic wand and fix these issues. Wanting less instead of more of a government's hand-fisted & routinely corrupt intervention is...a matter of simple pragmatism, really.

[Nilokeras]

Human activity is indeed responsible for global warming & climate change - but respectfully, the actual linchpin of Earth's ecology is photosynthesis. Oxygen production (and by proxy, all life) lives and dies by the single factor of photosynthesis - and that process is in no danger whatsoever. Sensitive species may be in trouble, but plants LOVE carbon dioxide and high temperatures. Earth has gone through over a dozen mass extinctions before even the dinosaurs got their turn.

The last time the Earth went through a rapid release of CO2 like this it caused runaway ocean acidification, depleting the buffering capacity of the ocean and leading to the collapse of pelagic calcareous organism populations - like the ones that do the majority of our photosynthesis, not 'plants'. I don't know about you but any geological period called 'The Great Dying' is not something I'm eager to experience.

Otherwise this whole thing is just the freezer burned one-two take of every denialist argument ever: 'it's not that bad'/'we shouldn't do anything'. Throwing it in the microwave and revealing its greyed out floppiness to all of us as though it's new is not particularly convincing.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Human activity is indeed responsible for global warming & climate change - but respectfully, the actual linchpin of Earth's ecology is photosynthesis. Oxygen production (and by proxy, all life) lives and dies by the single factor of photosynthesis - and that process is in no danger whatsoever. Sensitive species may be in trouble, but plants LOVE carbon dioxide and high temperatures. Earth has gone through over a dozen mass extinctions before even the dinosaurs got their turn.

The last time the Earth went through a rapid release of CO2 like this it caused runaway ocean acidification, depleting the buffering capacity of the ocean and leading to the collapse of pelagic calcareous organism populations - like the ones that do the majority of our photosynthesis, not 'plants'. I don't know about you but any geological period called 'The Great Dying' is not something I'm eager to experience.

Otherwise this whole thing is just the freezer burned one-two take of every denialist argument ever: 'it's not that bad'/'we shouldn't do anything'. Throwing it in the microwave and revealing its greyed out floppiness to all of us as though it's new is not particularly convincing.

Fresh frozen microwave-in-the-bag Grey Nuggets. Warning: do not removed delicious packaging, or accidental digestion may occur.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

A share of the media market somewhat proportional to their human numbers, does not at all prove a share of all power. An 10 years isn't that significant, considering people's trajectory to power or prison begins in childhood.

The media market is disproportional to their relative portion of the population. You would think we live in Africa by watching the television.

Maybe. I've never seen African television so I wouldn't know.

My point was that "a share of power" is a share of a great many important things besides how many roles a race gets on television.

You haven't addressed the overt policies in government, academia, or business explicitly designed to favor nonwhites at the expense of European descended populations. That is not equality, it's special treatment rooted in hostile Antiwhitism.

I understand it must be tough for you now the boot's on the other foot. But whites in the US have a long way to go before they're as oppressed as blacks.

Special treatment cannot exist without someone getting treated worse, and the demands for supplications are only increasing.

The trivial surface discrimination you're complaining about has a lot to do with the persecution complex of "outspoken" whites, getting sacked for being a bit racist/sexist and bloody awful at the same time. Trolling doesn't work so well when you don't have anonymity.

I think you mean "restitution" or "reparations" rather than "supplications". Though maybe you genuinely think minorities have the majority of power and can demand anything they want; then spare me whatever you're watching to get that idea.

[Kilobugya]

The main problem I have with "moderates" is that it's not actually a political position derived from core values, but just a fear of change. What's "moderate" now would often have been considered extreme a few decades ago, will be (probably on the other side) in a few decades, or would be in a different place. And at the end, by supporting the status quo, it ends up favoring those who take advantage from whatever the current situation is.

We should be careful about too drastic changes, because change can be disruptive and generate suffering, frustration, hostility and even death while it's going on. But that's about the "'how should we do it ?" question, not about the "should we do it at all ?" question.

We should get rid of fossil fuels. We should get rid of ridiculous amount of inequality we have now. We should get rid of ridiculous power the ultra-rich and financial insituations have over people's working conditions and the economy as a whole. We should protect people discriminated, harassed, abused due to their skin color, religion, gender, place of birth, sexual orientation, body size, disability. We should stop waging wars and supporting corrupt and oppressive regimes all around the world. We should ensure everyone as a safe, useful job that pays a living wage. I don't care if those are "moderate" or "radical" ideas. We should open the patents on drugs and vaccines to save the world from a pandemics. We should do all of those and many more for reasons linked to the proposal itself and its consequences on people and the planet, not because it's judged "moderate" or not in a specific time and place.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

The last time the Earth went through a rapid release of CO2 like this it caused runaway ocean acidification, depleting the buffering capacity of the ocean and leading to the collapse of pelagic calcareous organism populations - like the ones that do the majority of our photosynthesis, not 'plants'. I don't know about you but any geological period called 'The Great Dying' is not something I'm eager to experience.

Otherwise this whole thing is just the freezer burned one-two take of every denialist argument ever: 'it's not that bad'/'we shouldn't do anything'. Throwing it in the microwave and revealing its greyed out floppiness to all of us as though it's new is not particularly convincing.

Fresh frozen microwave-in-the-bag Grey Nuggets. Warning: do not removed delicious packaging, or accidental digestion may occur.

Can use CO2 to make diamonds, so everyone can get a few tons of diamonds

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Fresh frozen microwave-in-the-bag Grey Nuggets. Warning: do not removed delicious packaging, or accidental digestion may occur.

Can use CO2 to make diamonds, so everyone can get a few tons of diamonds

No way. They'd shovel them into a stove and burn them!

[Lanoraie II]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP. Identity politics is low hanging fruit intentionally dangled in front of you by "them" to distract, divide, and ultimately profit off of your distracted minds. They will literally tell you to not use a straw while producing millions of them a day anyway, alongside literally billions of other pieces of plastic. It makes me fucking sick.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

It's the moderates who are actually getting stuff done, winning elections, making real progress. Actually helping real peoples real lives. It is those who refuse to negotiate or compromise,
; who demand only their own way and won't accept a slower rate of progress, who would see low income people suffer more so that they can indulge in their own ideological purity.

There's some irony in then blaming moderates for actually winning elections and achieving some change, rather than none at all.

Meanwhile the moderates went back on their promise to raise the minimum wage. The moderates can make change but usually don't cause Wallstreet has their hands up their asses.

[Kilobugya]

I want goverment that grinds to a halt, I want obstructive politics, I want watered-down compromise, and I want the conceited and arrogant politicians (on both sides of the aisle) to never get their way. Centralized authority deserves to be marginalized, so for the good of everyone's liberty who will ever exist, I'll stick to the center. I will vote for whatever side is necessary, to best obstruct authoritarianism. All too often, nothing is exactly the right thing for government to do.

Except the central government isn't the only, or even the main, threat. And while the government grinds to an halt, it's the vultures of finance who can exploit workers at starvation wage, fire people for unionizing and being gay, it's the corporations who can bring us to the verge of environmental collapse, it's a virus that can kill millions, it's the police officers who can kill unharmed black citizen with near-total impunity, it's the children who can poison themselves with lead from unsafe waterpipes, it's the paramilitary paid by corporations who can murder hundred of unionists or environmentalists per year in Colombia, it's... I could continue for ages.

[Senkaku]

Well, too bad!

I'm a moderate. And the reason why I'm a moderate is because I dislike authoritarianism. It is a threat to liberty.

I want goverment that grinds to a halt, I want obstructive politics, I want watered-down compromise, and I want the conceited and arrogant politicians (on both sides of the aisle) to never get their way. Centralized authority deserves to be marginalized, so for the good of everyone's liberty who will ever exist, I'll stick to the center. I will vote for whatever side is necessary, to best obstruct authoritarianism. All too often, nothing is exactly the right thing for government to do.

having a functional state is authoritarianism and the more you have a functional state the more authoritarianism it is

[Kilobugya]

It's the moderates who are actually getting stuff done, winning elections, making real progress.

That's just historically wrong. The moderates don't have a very good record at winning elections, and usually don't do anything unless pushed by the "radical". The "moderate" just end up going on with the status quo, favoring those currently at the top of pyramid, and by giving up on their promises (like Biden giving up on $15 minimal wage, to take a recent example) they encourage voter apathy and resignation.

Actually helping real peoples real lives.

Those usually come from the "radicals". The New Deal in the US was "radical". The Front Populaire in France was "radical". The NHS in UK was "radical". And so on.

It is those who refuse to negotiate or compromise,

Not being a moderate doesn't mean refusing to negotiate or compromise. It means having very high ideals and goals, so once you start to negotiate and compromise, you don't completely lose sight of the goal and end up doing so little that the compromise becomes more of a betrayal.

[Kubra]

Well, too bad!

I'm a moderate. And the reason why I'm a moderate is because I dislike authoritarianism. It is a threat to liberty.

I want goverment that grinds to a halt, I want obstructive politics, I want watered-down compromise, and I want the conceited and arrogant politicians (on both sides of the aisle) to never get their way. Centralized authority deserves to be marginalized, so for the good of everyone's liberty who will ever exist, I'll stick to the center. I will vote for whatever side is necessary, to best obstruct authoritarianism. All too often, nothing is exactly the right thing for government to do.

I fill out my tax returns incorrectly, just to waste their time. That shows em.

[National Capitalist United States]

It's the moderates who are actually getting stuff done, winning elections, making real progress. Actually helping real peoples real lives. It is those who refuse to negotiate or compromise,
; who demand only their own way and won't accept a slower rate of progress, who would see low income people suffer more so that they can indulge in their own ideological purity.

There's some irony in then blaming moderates for actually winning elections and achieving some change, rather than none at all.

Meanwhile the moderates went back on their promise to raise the minimum wage. The moderates can make change but usually don't cause Wallstreet has their hands up their asses.

I mean, to be fair the US is way more capitalist than any other country, so it makes sense that your economic "moderates" are actually right-wing instead of actually centrist

[Sundiata]

Because Paul Ryan, while Catholic, is a neoliberal.

that's
not relevant
not everyone who shares ideologies is interchangeable

Sure, but by the way you described my thinking is, "everything Paul Ryan ever said about the economy." I'm not saying that you said that in those words but the implication is there. And I really want to make clear that while I do subscribe to CST, I'm not at all saying that it's incompatible with capitalism.

[Bear Stearns]

Because Paul Ryan, while Catholic, is a neoliberal.

that's
not relevant
not everyone who shares ideologies is interchangeable

In the grand scheme of things, they sort of are. Both Paul Ryan and Joe Biden (who he ran against) are committed to maintaining the same global order and generally agree on the purpose of the US government (to serve Blackstone).

[Odreria]

that's
not relevant
not everyone who shares ideologies is interchangeable

In the grand scheme of things, they sort of are. Both Paul Ryan and Joe Biden (who he ran against) are committed to maintaining the same global order and generally agree on the purpose of the US government (to serve Blackstone).

The differences are “how fast should we liquidate society” and “should abortion be allowed”