The Problem With “Moderates”

[Xmara]

Walking into this thread like

(Image)

Beautiful

[United Chinese Communes]

We can change the world without being radical or divisive, we can do it by bringing people together.

Why do you assume that radicalism and division go hand-in-hand? Why do you assume that radicalism and uniting people are mutually exclusive?

They aren't. We need to stop this nonsensical belief that we must be willing to compromise with our enemies no matter what the issue is. Some issues are not worthy of compromise. Healthcare, police reform, climate change, wage labor, etc. are not issues where there should be "compromise".

"Radical" is not a slur, it is not derogatory, and it should not be a means by which those who want to oppose progress can silence their opposition. Radicals get shit done; moderates don't.

It seems to me that centrism and moderation-for-moderation's-sake is nothing more than an application of the golden mean fallacy to politics, always believing that the middle ground between two positions is the optimal solution. This has been continuously proven to be patently false.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

In your book, what's the problem with capitalism?

Nothing necessarily. I'm not a socialist, I'm a social democrat and a capitalist, but to say it's completely innocent is to whitewash its history. Capitalism led to slavery and famines in India and Africa and unchecked capitalism can lead to nothing short of corporatocratic totalitarianism.

I mean... that's not even remotely true. India and Africa had problems with famine and slavery long before capitalism was introduced to those regions.

[United Chinese Communes]

Nothing necessarily. I'm not a socialist, I'm a social democrat and a capitalist, but to say it's completely innocent is to whitewash its history. Capitalism led to slavery and famines in India and Africa and unchecked capitalism can lead to nothing short of corporatocratic totalitarianism.

I mean... that's not even remotely true. India and Africa had problems with famine and slavery long before capitalism was introduced to those regions.

True enough, but capitalist exploitation by imperial powers severely exacerbated these issues to previously unseen heights.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I mean... that's not even remotely true. India and Africa had problems with famine and slavery long before capitalism was introduced to those regions.

True enough, but capitalist exploitation by imperial powers severely exacerbated these issues to previously unseen heights.

Which is more the fault of imperialism directly and capitalism indirectly but I digress.

[Punished UMN]

We can change the world without being radical or divisive, we can do it by bringing people together.

Why do you assume that radicalism and division go hand-in-hand? Why do you assume that radicalism and uniting people are mutually exclusive?

They aren't. We need to stop this nonsensical belief that we must be willing to compromise with our enemies no matter what the issue is. Some issues are not worthy of compromise. Healthcare, police reform, climate change, wage labor, etc. are not issues where there should be "compromise".

"Radical" is not a slur, it is not derogatory, and it should not be a means by which those who want to oppose progress can silence their opposition. Radicals get shit done; moderates don't.

You ask why he assumes that radicalism and uniting people are mutually exclusive and then divide the world into friends and enemies in the next sentence.

[Atheris]

Nothing necessarily. I'm not a socialist, I'm a social democrat and a capitalist, but to say it's completely innocent is to whitewash its history. Capitalism led to slavery and famines in India and Africa and unchecked capitalism can lead to nothing short of corporatocratic totalitarianism.

I mean... that's not even remotely true. India and Africa had problems with famine and slavery long before capitalism was introduced to those regions.

Let me rephrase: it exacerbated them, although that's moreso the fault of imperialism. A better example would be unfair labor standards and tenement creation during the Industrial Revolution that led to pandemics of diseases like cholera as well as child labor and mass poverty in many areas of industrialized societies pre-regulation.

[Kowani]

Okay, finally got my computer. Here we go.

Environmental degradation and wealth inequality in my opinion are the most pressing issues facing the human race. Not just a particular group or anything but all of humanity.

Now you have people who don’t believe in climate change and you have those who deny or are comfortable with wealth inequality. I realize that those people are in power all over the world but the public, the body of citizens especially in the West do not agree with this.

Ehh, no. Climate change in the US (the largest emitter) is heavily politicized, with one half of the voter pool believing that it doesn't exist-or if it does, it's just natural physical cycles. The amount of Republican voters who believe specifically in large effets of anthropogenic climate change is...14%. And just acknowledging there's a problem isn't enough-what you want to do about it matters. Unfortunately, the most popular solution is...planting trees. Spoiler: (that's not enough), and despite the fact that there is theoretical bipartisan support for other solutions, they tend to run into Republican Party orthodoxy on other fronts.

They want change and understand the fact that we have destroyed this planet. They understand the wealthy work against us every day.
Numerous polling and just general populist attitudes everywhere prove that the people want changes on the two issues I mentioned at the start.

I'm sure you could cite some of these polls

So why given the vast support for confronting these issues does nothing ever change? If the people are becoming more progressive why is the world getting worse?

Does the general forum of Nationstates have an answer to this? Any opinions?

this is very complex

My opinion is quite simple.

first red flag

I view the Joe Biden’s, the Macron’s, and the Trudeau’s of the world and their voters responsible for failing to act on the most important issue.

part of a much larger problem, but yes

Mushy moderates who drape their imperialism and capitalism with a rainbow flag. Look at AOC and the squad for example. How is being part of the party that is comfortable droning brown people in the Middle East considered progressive?

1: because AOC and the squad are anti-war-and have moved the party to the left on that issue
2: because we live in a country that forces a two-party system. There are progressives who involve themselves in electoral politics without being part of the democratic party. They're called the Green Party. They hold no seats in Congress, no seats in any state legislatures, no governorships, no territorial legislatures, no territorial governorships, and not a single presidency-ever. Their highest ranked position right now is a mayor of a city of 22,000 people.

The neoliberal capitalist elite realize that social conservatism and religion is dying out. Especially among Generation Z. They are aware we are becoming more “woke” on race and LGBT issues, as we should be.

this is true

And that’s the trap. I’ve come to realize that most people despite agreeing with me on wealth inequality and the environment they don’t think those are the most pressing issues. No, the spectre of racism and mean words on twitter is the main focus apparently.

This is a vast oversimplification. First, the facts.
People agree with you on climate change. In fact, it's the most pressing electoral issue in the US by voter opinion-but that's largely a result of Democratic belief. Only 8% of Republicans think it's an issue at all. In terms of wealth inequality, it barely reaches a majority (58%)-and that's again, the Democrats pushing it-Republicans only hit 12%. Race Relations don't actually rank that high on people's list of priorities-66% total, and only a third of Democrats.
Your analysis of the country's priorities are fundamentally flawed.

We can fix our environment through technology and as a last resort developing our space program to get off this doomed rock.

with our timeframe, no

We can punish and lock away those who hoard the wealth. We can change economic and political systems.

at least in the US, both of those things are absurdly racialized-you can't fix wealth inequality here without fixing racial inequality-there's just a large subset of voters who will reject any attempt at the former (much less the elite attempts to kill off the latter)

What we can’t do is social engineer racism away. Prejudice will always be part of human nature. Given the sun will envelop our planet in five billion years I don’t think we have time to evolve on that.

do you think racism stops at prejudice

I could be wrong but that’s not what is killing us.

it certainly isn't helping

You can ban people you can suppress them even kill and imprison them. Tribalism is part of human nature.

this does not support your point the way you think it does

White supremacy, National Socialism, and Fascism have zero institutional support. There are no large organizations of relevance, no corporations or governments pushing these ideologies. Just because you grew up in a racist town and saw some transphobic things on twitter doesn’t mean you live in a “white power” state.

white supremacy yes (though not overtly, which is the ticket to understanding it), the other two, no

But many Americans will say what about us! The problems facing the most disadvantaged come from white people?

not all, but a substantial amount

I don’t agree with that at all. It’s rich people regardless of colour regardless of background screwing us to make a buck. Destroying the planet just to see their personal fortune rise. Some of those people might be racist but they are doing what they are doing not in the name of ethnic nationalism or white power, it’s about green power.

Money is what drives our elite not racial supremacy. It’s easy to beat up your local Nazi and think your fighting the state.

But your not! Your better off doing that to a CEO of a multinational corporation because that person not your local racist is the one who is the source of our ills.

It might feel good to live your fake Allied powers anti fa fantasy but in the end you accomplish nothing.

Democracy now exists to give woke corporations the keys to power.

Just because you happen to support trans rights and BLM that doesn’t mean you are suddenly a progressive. Your just either picking the safest issues or using them to advance an agenda that is driving us to extinction.

you know
there's the really sharp line drawing between the elite and the average person in how society develops that is really not accurate at all

[New Visayan Islands]

People, I am locking this thread pending a trawl. We appreciate your patience.

Biden will not actively deny climate change and endorse conspiracy theories. Biden will not deny the danger of COVID-19. Biden will not support white power groups. Biden will not try to overturn our democracy and stage a coup. Just a couple off the top of my head.

Biden will do nothing to stop climate change

Biden not pandering to Abrahamic lunatics openly is not a surprise

What white power groups?

What coup?

And Biden’s plan is masks. I agree with that but it’s not ground breaking

My nation doesn't represent my actual views dumbass

Oh your flaming now! Wonderful!

Attacking Christians, Muslims, and Jews by questioning their mental state on account of their beliefs? We do not do that here. (Lest it be forgotten, Jews are by definition Abrahamists.) Accounting for your response in the report thread at Moderation and your history of mixing flamebait with other offenses, I am issuing you *** one week off for flamebait and trolling. *** Take the time off to read, review, and reflect on the Rules.

Yes it was an event manufactured by the American elite to give corporations especially oil and gas along with weapons manufacturers more power.

Nah, your crack and tinfoil hat were manufactured. 9/11 was not

“National Capitalist United States”

My nation doesn't represent my actual views dumbass

*** Flaming + Flamebait = One day off ***

As stupid as trusting woke neo liberals to save us?

Do tell do tell

That is…not what I said
Neoliberals are, in fact, trash
It just happens that your screed doesn’t understand in the slightest American politics or coalition in the slightest, much less the heavily racialized way inequality exists in the public conscience
I’ll try t explain in more when I get to a computer

That's a *** warning for trolling *** right there. You can attack the neoliberal beliefs without attacking the persons who hold them.

This thread shall now be unlocked.

Thanks!
NVI

[Diarcesia]

Moderates are seen as the problem until a revolution screws up big time such that the time of the moderates are seen as a golden age.

[Fedel]

The problem with moderates is they don't help my tribe to ascend to power or help to suppress potential challenges to my tribe! It makes me so mad! Grrrrr.

[Odreria]

Moderates are seen as the problem until a revolution screws up big time such that the time of the moderates are seen as a golden age.

Is that why Russians are so nostalgic for Stalin?

[Fedel]

Moderates are seen as the problem until a revolution screws up big time such that the time of the moderates are seen as a golden age.

Is that why Russians are so nostalgic for Stalin?

No. That would be ignorance and brainwashing.

[The Lone Alliance]

That's an extreme thing to say.

It's a extreme but do you believe the current status quo is sustainable?

That we can simply keep doing everything exactly as we're doing right now and things will just somehow work out?

Because it doesn't look like it's going to happen and it's growing increasing unlikely that people are simply going to accept moderate incrementalism towards fixing everything. No one has the patience for it, and it's highly likely at this point we don't have time to do it.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Is that why Russians are so nostalgic for Stalin?

No. That would be ignorance and brainwashing.

It really doesn't matter who they're nostalgic for. Our natural rose colored glasses will always have us saying: "Things were better under..."

[Picairn]

History does not favor radicals more than moderates.

> View moderates as the enemy
> Revolt and kill the moderates
> Generate extreme hostility and reaction from the radicalized leftover ex-moderates
> Internal coup, charismatic dictator takes power
> Dictator starts purging political opponents en masse
> Worse situation than the previous status-quo

I'll take "The Folly of Radicals" for $400, Alex.

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Moderates in a democratic government are harmful. Nowadays its just Neoliberals, Progressivsts, SocDems, Neoconservatives and Centrists. All these moderates are the same people with barely any difference causing harm to a nation by not doing anything about political issues, not saying anything in the UN, not helping the environment with climate change or doing stupid shit with the law. Only way to fix this damned earth is for a Junta to happen or Isolationism

[Nilokeras]

History does not favor radicals more than moderates.

> View moderates as the enemy
> Revolt and kill the moderates
> Generate extreme hostility and reaction from the radicalized leftover ex-moderates
> Internal coup, charismatic dictator takes power
> Dictator starts purging political opponents en masse
> Worse situation than the previous status-quo

I'll take "The Folly of Radicals" for $400, Alex.

I'll take 'bizarre miscasting of history' for $600 instead, Alex

[New haven america]

History does not favor radicals more than moderates.

> View moderates as the enemy
> Revolt and kill the moderates
> Generate extreme hostility and reaction from the radicalized leftover ex-moderates
> Internal coup, charismatic dictator takes power
> Dictator starts purging political opponents en masse
> Worse situation than the previous status-quo

I'll take "The Folly of Radicals" for $400, Alex.

I'll take 'bizarre miscasting of history' for $600 instead, Alex

Nah, that's a pretty standard trend throughout modern history.

[Diarcesia]

History does not favor radicals more than moderates.

> View moderates as the enemy
> Revolt and kill the moderates
> Generate extreme hostility and reaction from the radicalized leftover ex-moderates
> Internal coup, charismatic dictator takes power
> Dictator starts purging political opponents en masse
> Worse situation than the previous status-quo

I'll take "The Folly of Radicals" for $400, Alex.

I'll take 'bizarre miscasting of history' for $600 instead, Alex

Oh, reminds me of one of the greatest hits... "Stalin did not implement true communism!"

[Nilokeras]

I'll take 'bizarre miscasting of history' for $600 instead, Alex

Nah, that's a pretty standard trend throughout modern history.

like when

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Nah, that's a pretty standard trend throughout modern history.

like when

Hmm yes, let's see. Start date 1799 France, Present date 2021 Burma

[New haven america]

Extremists are those who say what they want to happen while moderates are the ones who actually implement realistic and plausible changes in line with what the extremists want.

And then the extremists get pissed at the moderates taking too long or not doing things "correctly", cause internal conflict that gives rise to a leader who unites the 2 sides, and then that leader ends up being a dictator reversing work done by both groups and generally making life miserable for everyone.

[Nilokeras]

Start date 1799 France

starting at the end? weird flex but okay

[New haven america]

Nah, that's a pretty standard trend throughout modern history.

like when

France, Russia, China, etc...