NationStates

Roegerland wrote:

Outer Bratorke wrote:What we need to do is keep putting pressure of Turkey, so that young Turks will start looking into it for themselves. Hopefully then a reckoning will come.

Perhaps unavoidable but not the best wording there. In any case I totally agree.

There has to be a final solution to the increase in Nazism in the west.

Insaanistan wrote:
If we want Turkey to be more open to admitting it was a genocide, we should acknowledge the complexity of what happened and its surrounding context, acknowledged Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire (too bad for you, political “Islamists”), and and educate ourselves and each other on the full Ottoman history, the one of the beacon of hope in Europe, a defender of the Eastern World, a center of knowledge and tolerance, and one of the largest empires in history; far different from the “sick man of Europe” who committed a genocide it is more often portrayed as in the West.

We do not, in fact, have to shill other people's racist/nationalist/religious supremacism - which a large part of your post is, btw - in order to get them to maybe adress their universally recognized atrocities.

Baltenstein wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:
If we want Turkey to be more open to admitting it was a genocide, we should acknowledge the complexity of what happened and its surrounding context, acknowledged Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire (too bad for you, political “Islamists”), and and educate ourselves and each other on the full Ottoman history, the one of the beacon of hope in Europe, a defender of the Eastern World, a center of knowledge and tolerance, and one of the largest empires in history; far different from the “sick man of Europe” who committed a genocide it is more often portrayed as in the West.

We do not, in fact, have to shill other people's racist/nationalist/religious supremacism - which a large part of your post is, btw - in order to get them to maybe adress their universally recognized atrocities.

I didn’t say we have to believe Turks are the best in the world.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:

Roegerland wrote:
Perhaps unavoidable but not the best wording there. In any case I totally agree.

There has to be a final solution to the increase in Nazism in the west.

Oh dear...

Sundiata wrote:I think that the government Turkey should formally apologize if they already haven't.

That won’t really change anything. What people really disagree on are not facts but morality. Many Turks simply don’t think there is anything morally wrong about slaughtering Armenians. Hence “Ottoman Empire massacred Armenians” is not seen as a crime but merely an event comparable to “The capital of Turkey moved to Ankara” and maybe even as a joyous event that should have been finished in Yerevan. We have to change the morality first (such as converting them to liberalism or Christianity) before the act actually having any intended effect.

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:

Greater Cesnica wrote:That would require Erdogan leaving office for that to even be a possibility.

Erdogan is a person who can accept the so-called Armenian genocide lie for his own interests. I think questioning is important for true enlightenment, so it shouldn't be said to exist or not. Unfortunately, in the Middle East, the so-called Armenian genocide is being used for politics, nobody takes responsibility. Armenia and Turkey work plan must be created by impartial historians. Unfortunately, this is not possible with political Islamists. If I tell the political Islamists this, I will be considered an Armenian nationalist. Just like Armenian Racists portray me as a Turkish racist

Wow the Turkish nationalist doesn’t believe in the Armenian genocide what a surprise.

Adamede wrote:

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Erdogan is a person who can accept the so-called Armenian genocide lie for his own interests. I think questioning is important for true enlightenment, so it shouldn't be said to exist or not. Unfortunately, in the Middle East, the so-called Armenian genocide is being used for politics, nobody takes responsibility. Armenia and Turkey work plan must be created by impartial historians. Unfortunately, this is not possible with political Islamists. If I tell the political Islamists this, I will be considered an Armenian nationalist. Just like Armenian Racists portray me as a Turkish racist

Wow the Turkish nationalist doesn’t believe in the Armenian genocide what a surprise.

He might actually be right that he is one of the more moderate ones though. Harsher ones likely don’t speak English and their real stance could as well be “we need to annex Yerevan and kill all Armenians, finishing the job Talaat Pasha started”. Mere recognition of the existence of Armenian Genocide is not enough. It is also necessary for Turks to genuinely believe that genocides are inherently evil. That will likely require forced liberalization of Turkey similar to liberalization of West Germany.

Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:Benny Morris and Dror Ze'evi wrote a book titled The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey’s Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924, which frames the Armenian Genocide as part of a broader thirty-year campaign by the Ottoman Empire to destroy its Christian populations. I haven't read it (yet). Has someone here, perhaps?

I know someone who read it that summed it up as "An argument that the Ottoman government, knowing it couldn't prevent hatred towards Christian communities, should have ethnically cleansed them instead of sanctioning genocide". Not sure if that is true or accurate in terms of the contents of the book.

The Marlborough wrote:

Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:Benny Morris and Dror Ze'evi wrote a book titled The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey’s Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924, which frames the Armenian Genocide as part of a broader thirty-year campaign by the Ottoman Empire to destroy its Christian populations. I haven't read it (yet). Has someone here, perhaps?

I know someone who read it that summed it up as "An argument that the Ottoman government, knowing it couldn't prevent hatred towards Christian communities, should have ethnically cleansed them instead of sanctioning genocide". Not sure if that is true or accurate in terms of the contents of the book.

Lol wut? That would be an unethical take.

God of our fathers, known of old,
Lord of our far-flung battle line,
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:

The Marlborough wrote:I know someone who read it that summed it up as "An argument that the Ottoman government, knowing it couldn't prevent hatred towards Christian communities, should have ethnically cleansed them instead of sanctioning genocide". Not sure if that is true or accurate in terms of the contents of the book.

Lol wut? That would be an unethical take.

Well I know Benny Morris has said in the past that ethnic cleansing is preferable and less morally wrong compared to genocide if one is forced to make a decision between the two.

The Marlborough wrote:

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Lol wut? That would be an unethical take.

Well I know Benny Morris has said in the past that ethnic cleansing is preferable and less morally wrong compared to genocide if one is forced to make a decision between the two.

He isn’t wrong though. The correct solution instead would have been abolition of the Ottoman Empire. That is, UK and France should have been more principled and stood their ground in places such as Cilicia. Since the West didn’t even stop the Bolsheviks I guess it is too much to ask for.

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:

The Marlborough wrote:Well I know Benny Morris has said in the past that ethnic cleansing is preferable and less morally wrong compared to genocide if one is forced to make a decision between the two.

He isn’t wrong though. The correct solution instead would have been abolition of the Ottoman Empire. That is, UK and France should have been more principled and stood their ground in places such as Cilicia.

No they wouldn't, the abandoned numerous Armenian and other Christian communities. The French didn't bother to save Armenians when retreating. Also the abolition of the Ottoman Empire and the preceding fear that Christians would lead to its fall, are partially what led to the genocides.

The Marlborough wrote:

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
He isn’t wrong though. The correct solution instead would have been abolition of the Ottoman Empire. That is, UK and France should have been more principled and stood their ground in places such as Cilicia.

No they wouldn't, the abandoned numerous Armenian and other Christian communities. The French didn't bother to save Armenians when retreating. Also the abolition of the Ottoman Empire and the preceding fear that Christians would lead to its fall, are partially what led to the genocides.

Well, the ethnostate of Turkey would inevitably be even less tolerant of Christian communities compared to Ottoman Empire. This is why Serbs and Bulgarians were right to declare independence early when the internal balance of power in Ottoman Empire was not that against Christian communities though their fortunes were precisely one of the causes of misfortunes of Armenians who didn’t declare independence early enough.

Crabaiaia wrote:This is the thread for discussion and rememberance of the events of tension that happened between Armenian civilians and Ottoman troops in 1915. As well as discussions on alternate history on what could've happened if the genocide never happened.

The Armenian Genocide ABSOLUTELY happened. There is evidence of such with interviews of survivors and actual graphic photography of the events. Using the Khojaly Massacre of 1992 to justify denying the genocide is like denying the Holocaust because of what Israel did in the 1st and 2nd Infitadas, your countries are not as great as you think they are. Now shove that in your head otherwise you will be in my list of hated users

It always intrigues me that people want to emphasize the ‘Armenian Genocide of 1915’ without acknowledging that it occurred within the ongong series of conflicts in Anatolia. Moreover people seem fine with ignoring that Five million European Muslims were driven from their lands and resettled as refugees in Turkey and another five and a half million who died as a result of Christian ethnic nationalism supported by the European Great Powers. This includes the outcomes of the Greek Uprising through to the Circassian Genocide of 1864, the Balkan Expulsions of 1912 and the Russian invasion of Ottoman Lands in 1915.

Almost a quarter of Turkeys population descends from these Muhacirs and the result was that there was a huge mistrust and fear of Christian Nationalism by the Ottoman people and of Armenians in particular due to the ongoing collaboration of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation’s legions with Russian military forces, including the declared goal of provoking the Ottoman authorities into direct conflict in order to force intervention from the Europe Powers.
I’ll not deny that a genocide happened, but it should be recognised that it occured within the broader context of ongoing Warfare and a series of atrocities and genocides on all sides including Turkey, the Armenians and Europe in general

Cetacea wrote:

Crabaiaia wrote:This is the thread for discussion and rememberance of the events of tension that happened between Armenian civilians and Ottoman troops in 1915. As well as discussions on alternate history on what could've happened if the genocide never happened.

The Armenian Genocide ABSOLUTELY happened. There is evidence of such with interviews of survivors and actual graphic photography of the events. Using the Khojaly Massacre of 1992 to justify denying the genocide is like denying the Holocaust because of what Israel did in the 1st and 2nd Infitadas, your countries are not as great as you think they are. Now shove that in your head otherwise you will be in my list of hated users

It always intrigues me that people want to emphasize the ‘Armenian Genocide of 1915’ without acknowledging that it occurred within the ongong series of conflicts in Anatolia. Moreover people seem fine with ignoring that Five million European Muslims were driven from their lands and resettled as refugees in Turkey and another five and a half million who died as a result of Christian ethnic nationalism supported by the European Great Powers. This includes the outcomes of the Greek Uprising through to the Circassian Genocide of 1864, the Balkan Expulsions of 1912 and the Russian invasion of Ottoman Lands in 1915.

Almost a quarter of Turkeys population descends from these Muhacirs and the result was that there was a huge mistrust and fear of Christian Nationalism by the Ottoman people and of Armenians in particular due to the ongoing collaboration of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation’s legions with Russian military forces, including the declared goal of provoking the Ottoman authorities into direct conflict in order to force intervention from the Europe Powers.
I’ll not deny that a genocide happened, but it should be recognised that it occured within the broader context of ongoing Warfare and a series of atrocities and genocides on all sides including Turkey, the Armenians and Europe in general

You are of course also right. This is why I said that Armenians were unlucky since their misfortune is partly a consequence of Serb and Bulgarian fortunes (which includes cleansing the muhacirs). If Greeks and Armenians got their way there would have been no Turks in Izmir and Istanbul today which is also a serious problem.

Just like between Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks or between Germans, Poles, Ukrainians and Russians nobody was innocent.

What we can do right now is to freeze the current borders and ban all further instances of ethnic cleansing. All sides will have to denounce their own ethnic cleansers. Just like in former Yugoslavia despite not having been implemented perfectly at least Karadzic, Gotovina etc got indicted. Sadly Gotovina was not convicted though.

Roegerland wrote:

Outer Bratorke wrote:What we need to do is keep putting pressure of Turkey, so that young Turks will start looking into it for themselves. Hopefully then a reckoning will come.

Perhaps unavoidable but not the best wording there. In any case I totally agree.

I realized that the moment I pressed post. *Sigh*

Outer Bratorke wrote:

Roegerland wrote:
Perhaps unavoidable but not the best wording there. In any case I totally agree.

I realized that the moment I pressed post. *Sigh*

Ah. I see. You mean young Turkish people, not Young Turks supporters.

Another thing to take into account: many Armenians were killed in the Genocide by pro-Russian Armenian gangs who were attempting to revolt and saw those who didn’t comply as traitors. Additionally, many Turkish soldiers, officers, even a governor, who had been tried and convicted in the Ottoman Empire for their actions against the Armenians were punished in 1916, even some were executed.

I know Turks who acknowledges the Armenian genocide, but doubles down and said it was a good thing and there is nothing to be ashamed of, disgusting

Halivaara wrote:I know Turks who acknowledges the Armenian genocide, but doubles down and said it was a good thing and there is nothing to be ashamed of, disgusting

Yuup. This is why the dispute is not really about facts. Instead it is about morals.

Halivaara wrote:I know Turks who acknowledges the Armenian genocide, but doubles down and said it was a good thing and there is nothing to be ashamed of, disgusting

Most forms of genocide denial firmly believe that

A.) the genocide never happened
and
B.) it should be done again

Baltenstein wrote:

Halivaara wrote:I know Turks who acknowledges the Armenian genocide, but doubles down and said it was a good thing and there is nothing to be ashamed of, disgusting

Most forms of genocide denial firmly believe that

A.) the genocide never happened
and
B.) it should be done again

That’s very irrational lol since A and B contradict each other.

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:

Baltenstein wrote:
Most forms of genocide denial firmly believe that

A.) the genocide never happened
and
B.) it should be done again

That’s very irrational lol since A and B contradict each other.

And do you see genocide denialists troubled by this?

Baltenstein wrote:

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
That’s very irrational lol since A and B contradict each other.

And do you see genocide denialists troubled by this?

I think they are lying, knowing that their actual stance (yay it happened and let’s do it again!) is even more repulsive. Hence they had to go with denial.