What has Israel ever done for us?

[Kowani]

Given the original premise and the OP's weird belief that Israel has caused all of America's recent wars, I'm not certain this thread was ever going to be good.

The OP is fine its just more of a shitstorm is happen

i mean
the OP was going to get us here eventually
it never set us up for productive discussion in the first place
we've had a slew of these outrage-bait threads recently
its just pattern recognition

[Molither]

The Empire of Japan beat and starved my great grandfather as a prisoner of war during WW II.


I don't know why anyone could support such an empire of evil.

If you are East Asian or Southeast Asian of any kind and can travel around the world without getting segregated or treated like absolute shit it is because of the Empire of Japan which through its defeat of Russian Empire and conquest of Southeast Asia convinced Europeans that East Asians are in fact humans instead of monkeys and hence have to be accommodated. This is not on topic though.

Most people really don’t think from a consequentialist point of view. Stuff such as British Empire and Empire of Japan served very important purposes. The bad aspects of their legacies doesn’t outlast the good aspects. The State of Israel serves very important purposes today.

There's a difference between the Empire of Japan when it defeated Russia and when it turned fascist and killed millions in WW II.

The latter is just as bad as Nazi Germany.

[Molither]

Furthermore, the Rising Sun Naval Flag is seen as offensive as the Swastika in Korea and China

[Sundiata]

Without a one-state solution there will never be peace.

[Fahran]

The OP is fine its just more of a shitstorm is happen

The OP wasn't really set-up in good faith. From the look of the thread, the OP had a preconceived answer prepped and didn't actually care too much for how people answered the rhetorical question posed by the title. That very seldom leads to productive conversations. Given I just bumped into the implied argument "Jews are foreigners everywhere" and the stated argument "Jews don't deserve a homeland", I'm honestly a bit surprised that the conversation is comparatively civil at the moment.

[Kowani]

Without a one-state solution there will never be peace.

millions of corpses are remarkably non-violent

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

The OP is fine its just more of a shitstorm is happen

The OP wasn't really set-up in good faith. From the look of the thread, the OP had a preconceived answer prepped and didn't actually care too much for how people answered the rhetorical question posed by the title. That very seldom leads to productive conversations. Given I just bumped into the implied argument "Jews are foreigners everywhere" and the stated argument "Jews don't deserve a homeland", I'm honestly a bit surprised that the conversation is comparatively civil at the moment.

Op ain't not wrong

[Fahran]

Op ain't not wrong

The OP is wrong about a good many things.

[Sundiata]

Without a one-state solution there will never be peace.

millions of corpses are remarkably non-violent

That might happen by the end of this conflict.

[Kowani]

millions of corpses are remarkably non-violent

That might happen by the end of this conflict.

how on earth do people keep missing my points
do i need like
a giant neon sign?

[Punished UMN]

If Israel was primarily concerned with its national security and genuinely wanted to reward good-faith negotiations, it would have done so, but it never has. The Israelis say the Palestinians could have a state whenever they choose to negotiate, but the Palestinians have negotiated, and the Israelis have never kept their side of the bargain.

This is simplifying a really complex set of obstacles that have prevented the peace process from going forward. The Oslo Accords were broadly respected up until the Second Intifada, with only one serious new settlement project pursued - notably in East Jerusalem rather than the West Bank. As I laid out before, the problem is that Israel wants to begin negotiations with the de facto extant borders whereas the Palestinians want to begin negotiations with the 1967 borders. Israel and Palestine both want East Jerusalem and both want territories that the currently presently claims either de facto or de jure, and nobody has been willing to budge on those claims. And both sides have very understandable reasons for wanting what they want.

The Israelis say "oh, if Hamas didn't launch rockets, there would be no need to hurt the people of Gaza", okay, then why does Israel keep hurting the people of the West Bank?

A lot of the most harmful policies in the West Bank are rooted in deeper security concerns.

Because it's not about security but about expansion, and the talk of security is a red herring.

In the absence of peace, expansion to the Jordan creates a natural defensive boundary.

The Israelis could have peace if they would reward those who cooperate with them, but they do not do this.

It depends on what the reward looks like. They can't unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank and expect Fatah to then negotiate because it'd leave the issue of East Jerusalem unresolved. And I'm skeptical that anyone would give Israel the moral high ground for simply falling back to the 1967 borders without any assurances. The Israeli public certainly wouldn't stand for it.

There's no incentive for the Palestinians to cooperate because even those who cooperate are forced off their land and replaced with settlers. Peace is a two-way street, but the Israelis want peace from the Palestinians while they themselves continue to wage war.

The incentive, and it is a highly unethical one, is that they might salvage some semblance of a state.

This is disingenuous for a couple of reasons:

1) For negotiations to be serious, the Israelis would have to acknowledge the sovereignty of the Palestinians, doing so would acknowledge that the Palestinians have sovereignty and therefore that the Israeli position on the borders is illegal. If the Israelis don't acknowledge the sovereignty of the Palestinians, the PA has zero legal right to make binding decisions on behalf of the Palestinians as a nation. The Israeli desire to both not acknowledge the Palestinian Authority as a sovereign entity, and to negotiate with them, is an irreconcilable difference. Palestinian sovereignty can't be used as a bargaining chip for good-faith negotiations.

2) Invading foreign countries is indeed a guarantee of security, that doesn't make it legal or right. This is a double-standard which you're willing to give in the Israelis' favor but not that of any other country.

[Punished UMN]

I guess practicing apartheid and actively carrying out ethnic cleansing is fine as long as the right people are doing it.

The entire world will be better off when Israel is abolished

Do you believe we should abolish every state that engages in apartheid or ethnic cleansing?

"Other states commit crimes against humanity so there's nothing wrong with this one doing it" is a pretty low moral bar.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

This is simplifying a really complex set of obstacles that have prevented the peace process from going forward. The Oslo Accords were broadly respected up until the Second Intifada, with only one serious new settlement project pursued - notably in East Jerusalem rather than the West Bank. As I laid out before, the problem is that Israel wants to begin negotiations with the de facto extant borders whereas the Palestinians want to begin negotiations with the 1967 borders. Israel and Palestine both want East Jerusalem and both want territories that the currently presently claims either de facto or de jure, and nobody has been willing to budge on those claims. And both sides have very understandable reasons for wanting what they want.


A lot of the most harmful policies in the West Bank are rooted in deeper security concerns.


In the absence of peace, expansion to the Jordan creates a natural defensive boundary.


It depends on what the reward looks like. They can't unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank and expect Fatah to then negotiate because it'd leave the issue of East Jerusalem unresolved. And I'm skeptical that anyone would give Israel the moral high ground for simply falling back to the 1967 borders without any assurances. The Israeli public certainly wouldn't stand for it.


The incentive, and it is a highly unethical one, is that they might salvage some semblance of a state.

This is disingenuous for a couple of reasons:

1) For negotiations to be serious, the Israelis would have to acknowledge the sovereignty of the Palestinians, doing so would acknowledge that the Palestinians have sovereignty and therefore that the Israeli position on the borders is illegal. If the Israelis don't acknowledge the sovereignty of the Palestinians, the PA has zero legal right to make binding decisions on behalf of the Palestinians as a nation. The Israeli desire to both not acknowledge the Palestinian Authority as a sovereign entity, and to negotiate with them, is an irreconcilable difference. Palestinian sovereignty can't be used as a bargaining chip for good-faith negotiations.

2) Invading foreign countries is indeed a guarantee of security, that doesn't make it legal or right. This is a double-standard which you're willing to give in the Israelis' favor but not that of any other country.

From a utilitarian POV it is actually justified to give it to Israel but not its enemies.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Do you believe we should abolish every state that engages in apartheid or ethnic cleansing?

"Other states commit crimes against humanity so there's nothing wrong with this one doing it" is a pretty low moral bar.

If you want to moralize a world start from confronting the biggest villains. Invade Saudi Arabia to liberate its women. Invade China to free its subjects. This is how the total amount of evil can decrease. On the other hand if you stick to low-hanging fruits the world will actually become more evil in the long run as evil-doers form organized crime.

[Picairn]

If you want to moralize a world start from confronting the biggest villains. Invade Saudi Arabia to liberate its women. Invade China to free its subjects. This is how the total amount of evil can decrease. On the other hand if you stick to low-hanging fruits the world will actually become more evil in the long run as evil-doers form organized crime.

So a carte blanche for Israel?

Last I heard, the US is planning to stop its involvement in the Yemen war and continuing to be a bulwark against China. Meanwhile it takes no action, and even vigorously supports Israel while Palestinian children die.

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Do you believe we should abolish every state that engages in apartheid or ethnic cleansing?

"Other states commit crimes against humanity so there's nothing wrong with this one doing it" is a pretty low moral bar.

This

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

If you want to moralize a world start from confronting the biggest villains. Invade Saudi Arabia to liberate its women. Invade China to free its subjects. This is how the total amount of evil can decrease. On the other hand if you stick to low-hanging fruits the world will actually become more evil in the long run as evil-doers form organized crime.

So a carte blanche for Israel?

Last I heard, the US is planning to stop its involvement in the Yemen war and continuing to be a bulwark against China. Meanwhile it takes no action, and even vigorously supports Israel while Palestinian children die.

That’s right since Israeli territorial goals are very limited compared to even Croatian nationalists, let alone Nazis. A Nazi variant of Israel would have demanded the end of Arabs and annexation of places from West Sahara to Iran. We aren’t even seeing Nile-to-Euphrates territorial demand now.

Palestinians need to be welcomed into the New World or Australia en masse. There are many Arabs in US, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil etc living good lives, some even become presidents and Vice Presidents.

[Guatemalan Corsica]

Isreal, Isreal, they, they didn't, I mean they did, uhhhhhhhhh.....

[Picairn]

That’s right since Israeli goals are very limited compared to even Croatian nationalists, let alone Nazis. A Nazi variant of Israel would have demanded the end of Arabs and annexation of places from West Sahara to Iran.

Okay buddy, justifying letting Palestinian children die because Israel could get worse, what a fantastic argument.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

That’s right since Israeli goals are very limited compared to even Croatian nationalists, let alone Nazis. A Nazi variant of Israel would have demanded the end of Arabs and annexation of places from West Sahara to Iran.

Okay buddy, justifying letting Palestinian children die because Israel could get worse, what a fantastic argument.

I provided an acceptable solution: let everyone willing to emigrate come to the New World. I’m sure they will enjoy Canada. The rest need to get Israeli passports.

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Okay buddy, justifying letting Palestinian children die because Israel could get worse, what a fantastic argument.

I provided an acceptable solution: let everyone willing to emigrate come to the New World. I’m sure they will enjoy Canada. The rest need to get Israeli passports.

Sounds a lot like Palestinians would be forced to refuge out for Israel to annex Gaza and West Bank. Sounds a lot like justifying Israeli imperialism on territory that is not theirs

[Punished UMN]

Also, does anyone remember the time Israel helped Apartheid South Africa obtain nuclear weapons?

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I provided an acceptable solution: let everyone willing to emigrate come to the New World. I’m sure they will enjoy Canada. The rest need to get Israeli passports.

Sounds a lot like Palestinians would be forced to refuge out for Israel to annex Gaza and West Bank

You aren’t a refugee when you get a US or Canadian citizenship.

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Also, does anyone remember the time Israel helped Apartheid South Africa obtain nuclear weapons?

Of course

[Great Pacific Switzerland]

Sounds a lot like Palestinians would be forced to refuge out for Israel to annex Gaza and West Bank

You aren’t a refugee when you get a US or Canadian citizenship.

Okay so if I speak Jap am I instantly a Jap? No, your logic doesn't make sense. Plus not everyone is gonna accept mass immigrants of Palnsetians due to Israelis kicked out the Palestinians from their nation, neo-colonianism here