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What has Israel ever done for us?

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:55 pm

Shu Chengdu wrote:
Kowani wrote:Thought experiment time, then. I’m not gonna address the question of whether we can feed the whole world or not, because that’s…really not interesting to me.

So first, let’s look at the number of orphans in the world. And that’s easy enough-140 million, or slightly under half the US population. But that’s a bit misleading, because, as UNICEF notes, not all of those kids have no parents (or alternative support networks). The number of children living with no parents is much smaller-its 15 million.
So then we look at housing. There are, as of this moment, about 17 million vacant housing units in America. Now obviously, not all of those are fit for children (or people in general), but that’s alright. This is the US. We can do literally anything on the domestic market as long as the real resources exist (which will cause a problem in a bit)
We wouldn’t have to start building a bunch of new housing units in North Dakota or wherever, it’s easier to start by fixing the ones we already have. And because most of those are in already existing cities and towns, you don’t have to build a whole new set of infrastructure for them-its just a matter of upgrading the already existing stuff before you move on.
The first significant roadblock, however, is people. Not on the orphans’ side, but on our own.
There are only 700,000 social workers in the US, and they are already occupied.. But we have a way of overcoming this-there is a massive jobless class right now, due to the ongoing pandemic (and many of those job losses are economically permanent). Hence, in the time it takes to start laying out the logistics of the program (rebuilding dilapidated houses, infrastructure projects, transportation networks, etc), you could repurpose the 10 million unemployed people (much less the even larger numbers of people who aren’t in the labour force at all) and push a lot of them into becoming a social worker for the incoming mass.
Food is the next area, and that’s interesting too. About 40% of all edible produce will never see a grocery store shelf, and 40% of all food will be wasted due to the inefficiencies of the profit motive. But with a massive government program to buy up that food, that ceases to be a problem (and it helps small farmers in the process, who aren’t exactly doing great right now). And if we really wanted to, we could orient the food production chain away from wasteful animal agriculture towards humanity, allowing for more nutritious diets and better food production in general. Like, we could feed 800 million people with all the grain we’re sending on livestock.

The political aspect is the largest obstacle-this would be a gargantuan project, spanning multiple administrations, and would require practically the entire attention of the US government at every level, and all of those would need levels of collaboration we haven’t seen since WWII.
You’d also have to get the private sector involved for therapy programs, construction, etc.
And to be clear, it’d never happen.
But it’s not mechanically impossible-just obscenely difficult.


I read the whole thing, but I’ll be honest I’m a little too slothy today to give an in-depth response. Here’s my best inputs;

•Well you did lay that out in a practical way thankfully. I was half-expecting (from personal classroom experience) you to simply say “Why not? Round ‘em all up and over a period of months brings them all here and stick them in houses.” (I’ve heard this concept before.)

I overthink things a lot. I like developing full plans that’ll never happen. I’m a nerd. :p

[/quote]
•I agree that you would never get the private sector to embark on such a huge undertaking simply based on philanthropy with no signal of profit to be had.[/quote] I mean, you could. Even if we don’t go the War Production Board route, we could always just use federal contracting.
•And, unless you mentioned this and I just read over it, you’d never get the overruling majority to go for it even with the money to be had. The GOP would roadblock it at every eight feet even if it could be practically accomplished. Many liberals even might flake on it. Even if it were a decades long project. I mean look at the way dreamers are treated.
Oh yeah no the largest obstacle is by far the politics.
• As for resources, IDK... I’m under the impression the US is already strained in many ways. Even with a long time period of investment into this it would be VERY taxing. From money
We’re a monetary sovereign, we don’t face “budget constraints”
to food.
I feel like I addressed that already.

You wouldn’t be able to have any state/federal funding in it I can guarantee. Circle back to my thing about the GOP roadblocking it constantly.

It’d be a noble based pursuit yes... but... IDK.

I was focused on the mechanics, not the political realities. The GOP is an obstacle to pretty much every large program that might be helpful anyway-
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:44 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:This gets into a broader question of American involvement in the Middle East, since the way you're framing this is that Israel aids America in its involvement in the Middle East; hence Israel is a worthy ally.

It goes well beyond our involvement in the Middle East and has to do with our ability to retain technological and military superiority over our geopolitical rivals. We also get some rather nice power projection and technology from Israel itself, plus, politically and culturally, they're a good deal more like us than most of their neighbors.

Greater Cesnica wrote:Some 75% of Americans want the troops home from Afghanistan in Iraq. The American involvement in the region has been an unmitigated catastrophe. American support for the Syrian rebels lead to an empowerment of Salafist ideology and actors in the region, on top of the effects of previous support.

So the thing about opinion polls is that they can often vary dramatically based on the political attitudes in vogue in a given year and, beyond these changes, they often do not address other considerations in an adequate way. The answer to "Do you support the war in Afghanistan?" in the aftermath of 9/11 would have been radically different from the answer to that same question two decades later. Likewise, the answer to the question "Would you support a withdrawal from Afghanistan if it meant the resumption of Taliban rule in the country?" might well prove to be a rub politicians who have to actually deal with the long-term impacts of rash policy decisions. And that's a serious problem. If people want us to withdraw from Afghanistan but then want us to go back when the Afghan government predictably falls to the Taliban, we're wasting resources by listening to public opinion - as we did when we withdrew from Iraq before establishing local structures that could resist a serious insurgency alone.

Beyond that, common citizens may well be outright wrong about strategic, operational, and tactical circumstances and developments. For instance, a slight plurality presently believes that we are losing the ongoing counter-insurgency and that we should do even more than we're presently doing. In strategic terms, we have effectively prevented the development of a strong state under ISIL and have largely confined Islamist terrorist organizations to their more conventional geopolitical role as insurgents on the ropes. In operational and tactical terms, we have dealt severe damage to their command structures, retaken numerous important cities, inflicted high numbers of casualties on the enemy, and helped to develop local irregular forces capable of meeting an unsupported ISIL on an even footing. In short, citizens are wrong about how the conflict with ISIL is playing out.

This isn't too surprising. Americans have this myth that we often "win the war and lose the peace", but, really, a lot of that has to do with expecting victory to resemble what happened in World War 2 where our enemies had to capitulate and accept long-term changes to their political culture and society being imposed on them. Historically, that is not what most victories look like, especially not between powers on a roughly equal footing. And especially not when you're not engaging in outright conquest.

Greater Cesnica wrote:It's not worth it.

War very seldom is, but, again, public opinion is a fickle thing and probably shouldn't be consulted when making long-term policy decisions unless we intend not to act at all unless we have reasonable assurances that it won't shift - either because we're giving people free money, because our direct interests as a political community are involved in a potentially damaging way, or because we have the propaganda apparatus to mold public opinion that we did during WWI and WWII.

Greater Cesnica wrote:If Israel's human rights abuses don't justify cutting off support, then look at it from the broader perspective of why such support is needed.

Our pool of allies will shrink pretty rapidly if we decide to break arrangements and understandings over human rights abuses. And China and Russia's will grow in response.

Greater Cesnica wrote:The costs of intervening and occupying and staying in the region outweigh the purported benefits. If the politicians actually gave a shit about the troops, they would pull them out and away from harm. You don't change these behaviours by continuing to aid the guilty parties through good and bad. One needs to take a firm stand, much like Biden seems to be doing with Saudi Arabia now (certainly not enough though, in that case).

Biden also bombed Syria last week so I'm a touch skeptical that he's going to become a peacenik. Again, I have no problem with withdrawing from the Middle East. We will need to address the strategic considerations that drew us there in the first place though. In particular, we're going to need to start tapping petroleum reserves in the Gulf to ensure energy security, investing heavily in energy alternatives to develop those for when we deplete petroleum reserves, and perhaps contemplating the abandonment of our foreign policy commitments to contain Russian and Chinese influence outside of the Americas, Europe, and South Korea/Japan altogether. We'll also need to figure out a new way to test weapons systems in actual combat if we want to remain capable of protecting Europe, South Korea, and Taiwan for the next fifty or so years. My personal suggestion? Allow them to reform their military forces and gradually transition to purely local forces with minimal American support. Do not intervene if China goes hot and annexes Taiwan or North Korea reunites with South Korea. Accept the reconstitution of spheres of influence and being on a more equal footing with other powers who, in many cases, aren't neoliberal.
Last edited by Fahran on Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:47 pm

Greater Miami Shores wrote:You think Republican and Democrat Politicians don't give a shit about our American Troops in Pro Israel wars? I can strongly agree with this, fair is fair: If the politicians actually gave a shit about the troops, they would pull them out and away from harm.

We don't fight "pro-Israel" wars.

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Postby Great Pacific Switzerland » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:03 pm

Fahran wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:You think Republican and Democrat Politicians don't give a shit about our American Troops in Pro Israel wars? I can strongly agree with this, fair is fair: If the politicians actually gave a shit about the troops, they would pull them out and away from harm.

We don't fight "pro-Israel" wars.

>Gulf-War
>Iraq War
>Intervention in Libya
>Syrian Civil War
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:22 pm

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:
Fahran wrote:We don't fight "pro-Israel" wars.

>Gulf-War
>Iraq War
>Intervention in Libya
>Syrian Civil War

First Gulf War was more pro-Saudi than pro-Israel, but the overall gist is correct.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:38 pm

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Gulf-War

We intervened to safeguard Saudi Arabia and, later on, to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not a credible threat to Israel in any respect.

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Iraq War

We invaded in response to Saddam Hussein's refusal to comply with prior treaties regulating WMDs and inspections and, in part, because of the mistaken assumption that he might have been aware of 9/11. Iraq was even less of a credible threat to Israel at that point and destabilizing Iraq actually strengthened more serious threats to Israel - such as Iran, Syria, and Shia insurgent groups and militias.

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Intervention in Libya

We did that for France and "human rights." Israel was completely irrelevant to the decision and Libya is potentially the least threatening Arab nation with respect to Israel with the sole exceptions of Morocco and Algeria.

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Syrian Civil War

Once again, muh "human rights." ISIL and the Southern Front are actually more likely to attack Israel than the Syrian Arab Army, and Israel can bomb Hezbollah without us getting involved. Syria is a bit more of a threat, but, still, blaming that intervention on Israel shows a complete disregard for American geopolitical interests.
Last edited by Fahran on Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:38 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:First Gulf War was more pro-Saudi than pro-Israel, but the overall gist is correct.

Not even a little bit.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:28 am

Fahran wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:First Gulf War was more pro-Saudi than pro-Israel, but the overall gist is correct.

Not even a little bit.


Care to explain?
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Postby Jarvikan » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:35 am

Astral Traveller wrote:
East Blepia wrote:This is a legitimate inquiry. Virtually the whole body of our (American) foreign policy in the Middle East, i.e. towards over one billion Muslims, is based on the interests of Israel. We have even recently recognized Moroccan sovereignty over the Western Sahara, the same issue over which they were made to leave the African Union, in exchange for their recognition of Israel. All of the Iran nonsense over the past years would not have been a blip on our radar were it not for our ties and action on behalf of Israel. We would not need to be in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Syria, if it were not for the flaming resentment these Islamic extremists hold for us due to our incessant support for Israel.

Therefore why should an American politician, whose first interest in foreign policy was America, and not some other goal or allegiance, wish to remain so aligned to Israel as we are?

One can also ask him/herself what the other allies, such as the Netherlands, have ever done for us.

Your response also proves my idea that we only say these things because Israel is jewish

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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:49 am

Jarvikan wrote:
Astral Traveller wrote:One can also ask him/herself what the other allies, such as the Netherlands, have ever done for us.

Your response also proves my idea that we only say these things because Israel is jewish

…I’m not sure how wanting to know what our allies give us in return has to do with Israel being Jewish
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 am

Jarvikan wrote:
Astral Traveller wrote:One can also ask him/herself what the other allies, such as the Netherlands, have ever done for us.

Your response also proves my idea that we only say these things because Israel is jewish

???????
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Postby Jarvikan » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:51 am

Kowani wrote:
Jarvikan wrote:Your response also proves my idea that we only say these things because Israel is jewish

…I’m not sure how wanting to know what our allies give us in return has to do with Israel being Jewish

I was referring to his quote of how we don’t say what has the Dutch ever done for us

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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:11 pm

Jarvikan wrote:
Kowani wrote:…I’m not sure how wanting to know what our allies give us in return has to do with Israel being Jewish

I was referring to his quote of how we don’t say what has the Dutch ever done for us

Because America doesn't especially help the Dutch. Because the Dutch aren't "America's greatest ally". Because the Netherlands doesn't have a shitty recent human rights record.
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Postby Fahran » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:28 pm

SD_Film Artists wrote:Care to explain?

The notion that we fought the Second Gulf War or the Afghan War for Israeli interests is really monumentally detached from reality to such an extent that even humoring it is silly. Ditto for the notion that we intervened in Libya because of the Jews or Israel, and I strongly suspect that people who claim the latter would claim the former because this is just stupidly Antisemitic. You have to actively go out of your way to ascribe these problems to the Jewish state instead of France or the UK or Saudi Arabia or the US being the world police. The one claim that even makes a modicum of sense is Syria since they were a credible threat to Israel before 1973 and Israel has even intervened in the Syrian Civil War. The other claims are pure idiocy as a whole. And the fact that they routinely feature in critiques of American foreign policy really detracts from more robust critiques of American foreign policy. Like, honey, no, stop making it harder for me to argue that we should let Syria be or let Russia nom Crimea because it's not our business.
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Fahran » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:31 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:Because America doesn't especially help the Dutch. Because the Dutch aren't "America's greatest ally". Because the Netherlands doesn't have a shitty recent human rights record.

What have the South Koreans ever done for us?

Notably, the Dutch aren't combating a long-running insurgency with the constant threat of war hanging over them, which is part of why we don't benefit from giving them weapons systems to test out. As I pointed out before, given how Europeans behaved the last time they had to deal with long-running insurgencies, they'd probably act very similarly to how Israel is acting now. If not even worse due to lack of preparedness and the problems that tend to be introduced into an operational plan. The Algerian War for Independence was a veritable blood bath as an example.
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm

Fahran wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:Because America doesn't especially help the Dutch. Because the Dutch aren't "America's greatest ally". Because the Netherlands doesn't have a shitty recent human rights record.

What have the South Koreans ever done for us?

About $27,662,447 more worth of lobbying than israel ;p
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Postby Fahran » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:40 pm

Kowani wrote:
Fahran wrote:What have the South Koreans ever done for us?

About $27,662,447 more worth of lobbying than israel ;p

That's why I brought them up. The South Koreans really have a disproportionate impact on foreign policy and we're not allowed to criticize them. This sketchy cabal has been dominating the American government for decades!

:p

Nevermind the perfidious Qataris and Japanese!

What have the Japanese ever done for us? Toyota?

Toyota! Okay, well, yes. But, aside from Toyota... Sushi!

Aside from Toyota and sushi, what have the Japanese ev- Counterweight to Chinese influence!

Fine, fine. Aside from Toyota, sushi, and being a counterweight to Chinese influence, what have the Japanese ever done for us?
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:48 pm

Fahran wrote:

That's why I brought them up. The South Koreans really have a disproportionate impact on foreign policy and we're not allowed to criticize them. This sketchy cabal has been dominating the American government for decades!

:p

Nevermind the perfidious Qataris and Japanese!

What have the Japanese ever done for us? Toyota?

Toyota! Okay, well, yes. But, aside from Toyota... Sushi!

Aside from Toyota and sushi, what have the Japanese ev- Counterweight to Chinese influence!

Fine, fine. Aside from Toyota, sushi, and being a counterweight to Chinese influence, what have the Japanese ever done for us?

Singlehandedly saving our now $152.1 Billion videogame industry?

and i feel like Japan has more cars than just Toyota...
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Postby Fahran » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:51 pm

Kowani wrote:Singlehandedly saving our now $152.1 Billion videogame industry?

So we have them to thank for gamers?

Kowani wrote:and i feel like Japan has more cars than just Toyota...

They do, but Toyota is the single largest automobile manufacturer in the world as far as I'm aware.

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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:01 pm

Fahran wrote:
Kowani wrote:Singlehandedly saving our now $152.1 Billion videogame industry?

So we have them to thank for gamers?

we all make mistakes
Kowani wrote:and i feel like Japan has more cars than just Toyota...

They do, but Toyota is the single largest automobile manufacturer in the world as far as I'm aware.

depends on your metric
by market cap, its Tesla.
by sales and revenue, toyota
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 pm

Fahran wrote:
Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Gulf-War

We intervened to safeguard Saudi Arabia and, later on, to liberate Kuwait. Iraq was not a credible threat to Israel in any respect.

Great Pacific Switzerland wrote:>Iraq War

We invaded in response to Saddam Hussein's refusal to comply with prior treaties regulating WMDs and inspections and, in part, because of the mistaken assumption that he might have been aware of 9/11. Iraq was even less of a credible threat to Israel at that point and destabilizing Iraq actually strengthened more serious threats to Israel - such as Iran, Syria, and Shia insurgent groups and militias.

While I agree with you that it wasn't about Israel, I don't think we should take the reasons given by the Bush admin at face value given that they were false and knowingly false.
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Postby Fahran » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:28 pm

Punished UMN wrote:While I agree with you that it wasn't about Israel, I don't think we should take the reasons given by the Bush admin at face value given that they were false and knowingly false.

I don't think the reasons the Bush administration gave emphasize their good judgement to be honest and, really, I'm inclined to believe that they over-weighed the odds with inadequate intelligence and being jumpy as only the managers of foreign policy can be. Because nothing else makes genuine sense when you dig even a little bit. We didn't need to invade Iraq for oil or for Israel or even for the military-industrial complex. Afghanistan more than took care of the last part. And, given your knowledge of the initial Gulf War, you won't fault me for my assessment.

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Postby Dowaesk » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 am

Fahran wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:You think Republican and Democrat Politicians don't give a shit about our American Troops in Pro Israel wars? I can strongly agree with this, fair is fair: If the politicians actually gave a shit about the troops, they would pull them out and away from harm.

We don't fight "pro-Israel" wars.


I don't exactly agree with that. Many of them are pro-Israel in some way.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:18 am

Dowaesk wrote:I don't exactly agree with that. Many of them are pro-Israel in some way.


You mean this stuff?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans

Lawrence Franklin, an analyst and Iran expert in the Feith office, has been charged with espionage, as part of a larger FBI investigation (see Lawrence Franklin espionage scandal). The scandal involves passing information regarding United States policy towards Iran to Israel via the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Feith's role is also being investigated.[13]

According to The Guardian, Feith's office had an unconventional relationship with Israel's intelligence services:

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.

"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.

The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship with Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.[14]

Allegations have also been made that Pentagon employees in the Feith office have been involved in plans for overthrowing the governments of Iran and Syria.[15]

When Former NSA Chief General Michael Hayden testified before the Senate Hearing on his nomination as Director of Central Intelligence in May 2006, he was questioned by Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) on the pressure exerted by the Office of Special Plans on the intelligence community over the question of Hussein's links to al-Qaeda. Hayden explained that he was not comfortable with the OSP's analysis:

I got three great kids, but if you tell me go out and find all the bad things they've done, Hayden, I can build you a pretty good dossier, and you'd think they were pretty bad people, because that was what I was looking for and that's what I'd build up. That would be very wrong. That would be inaccurate. That would be misleading.

He also acknowledged that after "repeated inquiries from the Feith office" he put a disclaimer on NSA intelligence assessments of Iraq/al-Qaeda contacts.[16]


Article by Seymour Hersh: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003 ... telligence
Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ithinfeith
Last edited by Nakena on Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Fahran
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Posts: 22562
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Fahran » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:51 pm

Nakena wrote:
Dowaesk wrote:Snip.
Snip.

No to the first post. And I don't this article demonstrates that US involvement in Iraq or Syria is attributable to Israeli interests in whole or even in substantial part to the second.

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