What has Israel ever done for us?

[Stellar Colonies]

So, reasons that Israel has been beneficial/detrimental to the United States.

[Molither]

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:

I do and I also support the Empire of Japan. Deal with it.

The Empire of Japan beat and starved my great grandfather as a prisoner of war during WW II.


I don't know why anyone could support such an empire of evil.

[Picairn]

I don't believe Neko is Jewish. I thought he was Iranian actually.

I call Neko a Jewish Nazi because earlier he implied that I was an anti-Semite because I'm not a Jew and only Jews can criticize Israel without being labeled as anti-Semite. He also said criticizing Israel is an attack on Jews because Israel is a "democracy" and thus bound with the Jewish people's interests. A blatant lie since there are Jews that oppose the state of Israel entirely.

Basically a reverse Nazi.

[Fahran]

If Israel was primarily concerned with its national security and genuinely wanted to reward good-faith negotiations, it would have done so, but it never has. The Israelis say the Palestinians could have a state whenever they choose to negotiate, but the Palestinians have negotiated, and the Israelis have never kept their side of the bargain.

This is simplifying a really complex set of obstacles that have prevented the peace process from going forward. The Oslo Accords were broadly respected up until the Second Intifada, with only one serious new settlement project pursued - notably in East Jerusalem rather than the West Bank. As I laid out before, the problem is that Israel wants to begin negotiations with the de facto extant borders whereas the Palestinians want to begin negotiations with the 1967 borders. Israel and Palestine both want East Jerusalem and both want territories that the currently presently claims either de facto or de jure, and nobody has been willing to budge on those claims. And both sides have very understandable reasons for wanting what they want.

The Israelis say "oh, if Hamas didn't launch rockets, there would be no need to hurt the people of Gaza", okay, then why does Israel keep hurting the people of the West Bank?

A lot of the most harmful policies in the West Bank are rooted in deeper security concerns.

Because it's not about security but about expansion, and the talk of security is a red herring.

In the absence of peace, expansion to the Jordan creates a natural defensive boundary.

The Israelis could have peace if they would reward those who cooperate with them, but they do not do this.

It depends on what the reward looks like. They can't unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank and expect Fatah to then negotiate because it'd leave the issue of East Jerusalem unresolved. And I'm skeptical that anyone would give Israel the moral high ground for simply falling back to the 1967 borders without any assurances. The Israeli public certainly wouldn't stand for it.

There's no incentive for the Palestinians to cooperate because even those who cooperate are forced off their land and replaced with settlers. Peace is a two-way street, but the Israelis want peace from the Palestinians while they themselves continue to wage war.

The incentive, and it is a highly unethical one, is that they might salvage some semblance of a state.

[Fahran]

I’m not Jewish nor am I Iranian.

My bad. I got you mixed up with another poster.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:

I do and I also support the Empire of Japan. Deal with it.

The Empire of Japan beat and starved my great grandfather as a prisoner of war during WW II.


I don't know why anyone could support such an empire of evil.

If you are East Asian or Southeast Asian of any kind and can travel around the world without getting segregated or treated like absolute shit it is because of the Empire of Japan which through its defeat of Russian Empire and conquest of Southeast Asia convinced Europeans that East Asians are in fact humans instead of monkeys and hence have to be accommodated. This is not on topic though.

Most people really don’t think from a consequentialist point of view. Stuff such as British Empire and Empire of Japan served very important purposes. The bad aspects of their legacies doesn’t outlast the good aspects. The State of Israel serves very important purposes today.

[Fahran]

To add onto this, there are anti-Zionist Jews who very explicitly oppose Israel's existence.

A minority to be clear.

[Picairn]

If you are East Asian or Southeast Asian of any kind and can travel around the world without getting segregated or treated like absolute shit it is because of the Empire of Japan.

A blatant lie.

But I'll shut up because this is not the thread for it.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

If you are East Asian or Southeast Asian of any kind and can travel around the world without getting segregated or treated like absolute shit it is because of the Empire of Japan.

A blatant lie.

But I'll shut up because this is not the thread for it.

Moralists like you and Darwinists like me won’t ever agree. To me respect is necessarily downstream from power, that is, the ability to harm others. The possibility of some people voluntarily giving up nominal tribal dominance and treating others with respect without being pressured or threatened by some strong entity like Japan is zero.

This also affects my views of Israel. Only the threat of disproportionate violence could earn the Jewish right to continue to exist and that it has to be continuously guaranteed by such a threat.

[Stellar Colonies]

This is a legitimate inquiry. Virtually the whole body of our (American) foreign policy in the Middle East, i.e. towards over one billion Muslims, is based on the interests of Israel. We have even recently recognized Moroccan sovereignty over the Western Sahara, the same issue over which they were made to leave the African Union, in exchange for their recognition of Israel. All of the Iran nonsense over the past years would not have been a blip on our radar were it not for our ties and action on behalf of Israel. We would not need to be in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Syria, if it were not for the flaming resentment these Islamic extremists hold for us due to our incessant support for Israel.

Therefore why should an American politician, whose first interest in foreign policy was America, and not some other goal or allegiance, wish to remain so aligned to Israel as we are?

The topic ^

[Fahran]

Israel has received a great deal of support (over $200 billion) from the United States.

That's not what decided the outcome of the 1948 War or the Six-Day War though.

Meanwhile we embargo Iran and Syria, its main enemies.

Israel's main enemies in the past decade have been Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Iran supports two of those as proxies, but Iran has more immediate concerns as well. Neither Iran nor Syria would pose a serious threat to Israel, even in the absence of sanctions against them for violating international law and/or antagonizing the US. The notion that Israel could lose a serious conventional war passed after the Yom Kippur War and Anwar Sadat acknowledged Israel's existence, which is unsurprising given that Egypt was the leading Arab power at the time and had been consistently bested in conventional wars by Israel.

We invaded Iraq in part due to its opposition to Israel, we are currently involved in Syria for that same reason. Concern about authoritarianism, though righteous, does not actually exist in U.S. foreign policy, and concern about Russian involvement and Assad 'killing his own people' (though no reason has yet been provided why a combatant in a civil war would choose to do that) only emerged after the war had already begun.

Do you have evidence that we intervened in Iraq and Syria at the behest or for the benefit of Israel?

And yes, I agree - modern combat is not usually honorable. What I mean is that we should not involve ourselves, and instead let the Middle East resolve Middle Eastern issues.

And for point 3, he who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind.

I mean... I don't really think you stand behind that sentiment because Palestine definitely reaped the whirlwind in 1948. And it was a humanitarian and cultural disaster for the Arabs in the region.

[Picairn]

Moralists like you and Darwinists like me won’t ever agree. To me respect is necessarily downstream from power, that is, the ability to harm others.

Which is self-destructive and only leads to a violent end. No wonder the world keeps burning, because people feel the urge to dominate others and command respect through brute force.

This also affects my views of Israel. Only the threat of disproportionate violence could earn Jewish right to continue to exist.

Those who advocate for war only see destruction.

[Kowani]

Mask off everybody! Nekostan is a Jewish Nazi and an imperialist.

I don't believe Neko is Jewish. I thought he was Iranian actually.

I'm pretty sure he's mentioned before that he was some sort of East Asian

[United Chinese Communes]

I don't believe Neko is Jewish. I thought he was Iranian actually.

I'm pretty sure he's mentioned before that he was some sort of East Asian

I'm fairly certain he's Chinese, given that his stances appear to be influenced by fringe positions within Chinese internet politics.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Moralists like you and Darwinists like me won’t ever agree. To me respect is necessarily downstream from power, that is, the ability to harm others.

Which is self-destructive and only leads to a violent end. No wonder the world keeps burning, because people feel the urge to dominate others and command respect through brute force.

This also affects my views of Israel. Only the threat of disproportionate violence could earn Jewish right to continue to exist.

Those who advocate for war only see destruction.

You are an idealist. I’m a realist. Due to the existence of sociopathy morality is usually not sufficient to actually stop atrocities. Otherwise why do we even need the police? We just need moralizing and murder & rape will go away!

For example despite Nazi propaganda that Jewish people own the media Anti-Defamation League or the media did not manage to stop murders of Jews in Europe. However the Haganah, Irgun, Lehi and later IDF effectively prevented murder of Jews in mandatory Palestine. Similarly the mass murder of Slavs in Nazi-occupied East Europe only ended when Soviet troops literally went there and stopped them. No amount of moralizing worked. It was necessary to literally send troops in and kill or chase away murderers to stop mass murder.

[Fahran]

^

Except this isn't true at all.

The US doesn't have to account for Israel except in very particular situations when dealing with Muslim nations because we've effectively managed to cultivate both as allies irrespective of the other.

[Middle Barael]

I know this isn’t what your post was implying, but to those posters who are saying that Israel shouldn’t have a right to exist, they have as much a right as Palestine or any other country. Any group of considerable size has a right to self-determination, no matter what, if a majority wish for independence.

And as for the US supporting Israel, it’s likely because it’s not a dictatorship (though with Bibi it is getting closer and closer), not a monarchy, and generally pro-West.

And for perspective, I am an American Zionist Jew who believes that Palestinians have a right to a state in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem and who is also very much against Netanyahu and pretty progressive and left-wing.

I believe that nations have a right to self-determination. I believe that Israel is not an ordinary 'nation', though Jews do constitute an ethnicity, rather it is a colonial project and the principle of self-determination does not apply to it. Of course, this is up for debate.

You are right that many Jews did immigrate back to Israel, but there were also many that have lived there for years before Israel ever even existed as a modern state.

And if you (I mean you in general, not specifically East Blepia) support other movements to return to an ethnic homeland, like for the Armenian or Circassian diasporas, then I don’t see why Israel would be any different.

Anyways, as for why we support Israel, it’s for the same reason that the US generally supports India in their dispute with Pakistan. Israel certainly has human rights abuses (so does Palestine however), but out of the two at least it has a functioning democracy, and its major political parties are not international terrorist organizations like Hamas or the PLO (except for the old Lehi militia in the 40s and the Kach party of the 70s through the 90s, although neither had very much real power).

[Kowani]

I'm pretty sure he's mentioned before that he was some sort of East Asian

I'm fairly certain he's Chinese, given that his stances appear to be influenced by fringe positions within Chinese internet politics.

Based on some comments I'm half-remembering...i think he's from somewhere in southern china?
though i don't exactly know chinese internet politics-

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I'm pretty sure he's mentioned before that he was some sort of East Asian

I'm fairly certain he's Chinese, given that his stances appear to be influenced by fringe positions within Chinese internet politics.

I just identify as Northeast Asian with possibly some steppe ancestry. That’s a different topic though.

[Alcala-Cordel]

How can you support the BRITISH EMPIRE ?

I do and I also support the Empire of Japan. Deal with it.

oh no, not again...

I really don't get why you don't love China if you're so into subjugation.

[Fahran]

Snip.

Historically, the US actually tended to support Pakistan while the USSR supported India. That might be changing at present since China has replaced the USSR as the US's most serious geopolitical challenger.

And Yitzhak Shamir and several other members of the Lehi went on to become notable in Israeli politics. Others became peace activists, not surprising given that one gets tired of war and blood after awhile. A lot of Palestinian militants took the same route in the 1990s.

[Picairn]

You are an idealist. I’m a realist. Due to the existence of sociopathy morality is usually not sufficient to actually stop atrocities.

Realist, or Social Darwinist? I understand the concept of using force for self-defense, but not for warmongering and oppressing civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right.

For example despite Nazi propaganda that Jewish people own the media Anti-Defamation League or the media did not manage to stop murders of Jews in Europe. However the Haganah, Irgun, Lehi and later IDF effectively prevented murder of Jews in mandatory Palestine. Similarly the mass murder of Slavs in Nazi-occupied East Europe only ended when Soviet troops literally went there and stopped them. No amount of moralizing worked.

Actually, there was moralizing there. Soviet troops at first fought for their country's survival, then they sought to destroy the specter of Nazism that was plaguing Europe. The IDF stopped murders of Jews because they were concerned for their own country's survival. Fighting for a just cause is just.

What I don't support is you becoming the same devil you claim to fight against. Lehi allied with the Nazis and even got Israel to declare them as terrorists. The Soviet troops engaged in mass rapes and atrocities across Europe. That is evil.

You pretend that becoming evil is a part of fighting for a just cause, and take Social Darwinism as a moral guidance. I contend that it is wrong and evil to do so.

[Middle Barael]

Snip.

Historically, the US actually tended to support Pakistan while the USSR supported India. That might be changing at present since China has replaced the USSR as the US's most serious geopolitical challenger.

And Yitzhak Shamir and several other members of the Lehi went on to become notable in Israeli politics. Others became peace activists, not surprising given that one gets tired of war and blood after awhile. A lot of Palestinian militants took the same route in the 1990s.

Good point. I just meant that it’s not like most Israeli politicians were Lehi members (as opposed to the Gaza Strip where it’s essentially a Hamas theocratic dictatorship, and even in the West Bank many politicians are either in Hamas or former PLO members)

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

You are an idealist. I’m a realist. Due to the existence of sociopathy morality is usually not sufficient to actually stop atrocities.

Realist, or Social Darwinist? I understand the concept of using force for self-defense, but not for warmongering and oppressing civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right.

For example despite Nazi propaganda that Jewish people own the media Anti-Defamation League or the media did not manage to stop murders of Jews in Europe. However the Haganah, Irgun, Lehi and later IDF effectively prevented murder of Jews in mandatory Palestine. Similarly the mass murder of Slavs in Nazi-occupied East Europe only ended when Soviet troops literally went there and stopped them. No amount of moralizing worked.

Actually, there was moralizing there. Soviet troops at first fought for their country's survival, then they sought to destroy the specter of Nazism that was plaguing Europe. The IDF stopped murders of Jews because they were concerned for their own country's survival. Fighting for a just cause is just.

What I don't support is you becoming the same devil you claim to fight against. Lehi allied with the Nazis and even got Israel to declare them as terrorists. The Soviet troops engaged in mass rapes and atrocities across Europe. That is evil.

You pretend that becoming evil is a part of fighting for a just cause, and take Social Darwinism as a moral guidance. I contend that it is wrong and evil to do so.

Power does not require actually being evil. However it does require being able to be evil and get away with it or at least causing irreversible harm. What’s honorable is clearly having the ability to harm others without actually doing so. Assholes only respect people who are capable of being bigger assholes (which is different from people who are actually bigger assholes).

However since the only way to demonstrate that one is capable of being an asshole is actually occasionally acting like one, asshole behavior such as Empire of Japan suddenly striking against all European colonies in Southeast Asia does serve some important purpose for the Japanese. Those who are capable of occasionally being very dangerous enemies are also capable of usually being reliable and strong allies.

The only reason why asshats stopped murdering Jews for lolz is because due to Israel there are actually consequences of such murder. This is why IDF and its nukes have to exist. It of course doesn’t mean Israel actually needs to nuke Baghdad just to demonstrate that it shouldn’t be messed with. The IDF power display is already adequate.

[Kowani]

let's not relitigate this in yet another thread it doesn't belong in, shall we