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Reviving Physiocracy

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Shin-Mutsu
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Reviving Physiocracy

Postby Shin-Mutsu » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:47 pm

Physiocracy as a formal theory saw its origins in the 18th century, and then meant those the belief "that agriculture was the source of all wealth and that agricultural products should be highly priced" (Oxford Dictionary). Sadly, the theory soon became discredited in the wake of industrialisation of Europe and North America, and today has become an obscure ideology. Yet, following the failure of our modern economy even before the Covid-19 pandemic, is it time to consider physiocracy again? The political scientist Park Hyeja once wrote about combining physiocratic principles with other ideas such as socialism, national self-sufficiency, centralisation, and welfare state. She claimed physiocracy can also lead to self-strengthening and improvement of self-defense capabilities. I find some of those claims interesting, even if I don't agree with them completely.

NSG, do you believe in placing more emphasis on physiocracy?
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:49 pm

Weirdly this is an idea that only ever got much traction in countries where farmers maintained a meaningful political lobby.
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Shin-Mutsu
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Postby Shin-Mutsu » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:50 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:Weirdly this is an idea that only ever got much traction in countries where farmers maintained a meaningful political lobby.


"Rather than seeing the implementation of physiocratic measures from the ancient past as a step backwards, it is necessary to understand the context in which such policies shall be realised"
大新陸奥帝国
Great Shin-Mutsu Empire
Corporatism, class segregation, and complete absence of social welfare, ruled by a nearly psychopathic coffee drinking Oomiya twin

May your great reign last
A thousand years
And then ten thousand more
Oomiya Sakura has an older sister, and her name is Ito Sayuri.
She's not interested in tea parties or playing nice.
For every bad reply, Her Imperial Majesty Eternal Empress of the Realm Ito (Oomiya) Sayuri will sacrifice 1,000 class-E3 citizens. Sacrificed so far: 12,000

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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:54 pm

I mean, it mostly sounds like an argument for autarky. At least as far as food production is concerned.

And hey, nothing bad has ever come from that, right?
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:56 pm

Shin-Mutsu wrote:Physiocracy as a formal theory saw its origins in the 18th century, and then meant those the belief "that agriculture was the source of all wealth and that agricultural products should be highly priced" (Oxford Dictionary). Sadly, the theory soon became discredited in the wake of industrialisation of Europe and North America, and today has become an obscure ideology. Yet, following the failure of our modern economy even before the Covid-19 pandemic, is it time to consider physiocracy again? The political scientist Park Hyeja once wrote about combining physiocratic principles with other ideas such as socialism, national self-sufficiency, centralisation, and welfare state. She claimed physiocracy can also lead to self-strengthening and improvement of self-defense capabilities. I find some of those claims interesting, even if I don't agree with them completely.

NSG, do you believe in placing more emphasis on physiocracy?


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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:23 pm

The Zapatistas do this to a degree, and I think the greater population should definitely place more value on agriculture as well. In the status quo the majority of agriculture is unsustainable and managed by the bourgeoisie like most industries as well, and that system can only last so long before the environmental damages of taking food for granted will catch up with humanity.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:23 pm

I don’t know if it’s practical but there’s an appeal.

The happy music playing in the sunny fields of hay and corn, the joyous farmers, the berries, the renewed connection with nature and animals

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:03 pm

Shin-Mutsu wrote:NSG, do you believe in placing more emphasis on physiocracy?

No.

The idea is obsolete and has been since the Industrial Revolution. Given the economic and technological situation at the time I can easily see why intellectuals of the 1700s would find an idea like this appealing, but we no longer live in a society where wealth lies on a foundation of landholding and agriculture.
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The Union of British North America
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Postby The Union of British North America » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:08 pm

I do like the idea of taxing land value, it is more economically efficient than other taxes, and part of the physiocratic creed. I would favor Georgism over a return of Physiocracy, though I do recognize it as a forerunner to Georgism. More addressing economic privilege and making markets more freer and competitive, and addressing negative externalities on the environment with LVT and Pigouvian taxation.
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East Gondwana
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Postby East Gondwana » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:52 am

Shin-Mutsu wrote:Physiocracy as a formal theory saw its origins in the 18th century, and then meant those the belief "that agriculture was the source of all wealth and that agricultural products should be highly priced" (Oxford Dictionary). Sadly, the theory soon became discredited in the wake of industrialisation of Europe and North America, and today has become an obscure ideology. Yet, following the failure of our modern economy even before the Covid-19 pandemic, is it time to consider physiocracy again? The political scientist Park Hyeja once wrote about combining physiocratic principles with other ideas such as socialism, national self-sufficiency, centralisation, and welfare state. She claimed physiocracy can also lead to self-strengthening and improvement of self-defense capabilities. I find some of those claims interesting, even if I don't agree with them completely.

NSG, do you believe in placing more emphasis on physiocracy?

Sounds a bit like a form of agrarianism?
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:19 am

Human history can be seen as an effort to reduce food costs and increase its production and availability. Yeah let's turn the clock back on that.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:23 am

Shin-Mutsu wrote:Physiocracy as a formal theory saw its origins in the 18th century, and then meant those the belief "that agriculture was the source of all wealth and that agricultural products should be highly priced" (Oxford Dictionary).

It's categorically wrong though, as agriculture is not the source of all wealth, so why should one support a theory that is wrong right off the bat?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:04 am

How the fuck would this survive a nation wide year plus lockdown better than an industrial society?

Hell how could it provide the living standards of an industrial society?

Frankly just sounds like putting a planter aristocracy in charge like in the old Confederacy.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:09 am

Is this the part where I talk about how mechanised modern farms are again? About how few people actually work in agriculture yet there are record production yields? And do I really have to explain then why ideologies that laser focus on a sector like that are not only obsolete but also incredibly foolish?
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:20 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I don’t know if it’s practical but there’s an appeal.

The happy music playing in the sunny fields of hay and corn, the joyous farmers, the berries, the renewed connection with nature and animals

Ain’t nothing natural about farming dude. Farmland is as natural as a city.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:23 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:The happy music playing in the sunny fields of hay and corn, the joyous farmers, the berries, the renewed connection with nature and animals

...when was the last time you were on a farm? This sounds like something from a Disney movie rather than real life.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:25 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:The happy music playing in the sunny fields of hay and corn, the joyous farmers, the berries, the renewed connection with nature and animals

...when was the last time you were on a farm? This sounds like something from a Disney movie rather than real life.

Tbf that’s what a lot of their views sound like.
21yo male. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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Shin-Mutsu
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Postby Shin-Mutsu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:34 am

Adamede wrote:How the fuck would this survive a nation wide year plus lockdown better than an industrial society?

Hell how could it provide the living standards of an industrial society?

Frankly just sounds like putting a planter aristocracy in charge like in the old Confederacy.


A focus on agriculture leads to self-sufficiency. Park Hyeja argued as much in New Era Physiocractic Socialism.
大新陸奥帝国
Great Shin-Mutsu Empire
Corporatism, class segregation, and complete absence of social welfare, ruled by a nearly psychopathic coffee drinking Oomiya twin

May your great reign last
A thousand years
And then ten thousand more
Oomiya Sakura has an older sister, and her name is Ito Sayuri.
She's not interested in tea parties or playing nice.
For every bad reply, Her Imperial Majesty Eternal Empress of the Realm Ito (Oomiya) Sayuri will sacrifice 1,000 class-E3 citizens. Sacrificed so far: 12,000

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:40 am

Shin-Mutsu wrote:
Adamede wrote:How the fuck would this survive a nation wide year plus lockdown better than an industrial society?

Hell how could it provide the living standards of an industrial society?

Frankly just sounds like putting a planter aristocracy in charge like in the old Confederacy.


A focus on agriculture leads to self-sufficiency. Park Hyeja argued as much in New Era Physiocractic Socialism.

1: Modern agriculture is not self sufficient
2: self sufficient/subsistence farming is incapable of supporting the current population.
3: It wouldn’t change shit about the Pandemic and it’s effects on society.
Last edited by Adamede on Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
21yo male. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:46 am

Shin-Mutsu wrote:Park Hyeja argued as much in New Era Physiocractic Socialism.

Cannot find any reference to that person online, and nor can I find that book/article/pamphlet or whatever it is.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:05 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Shin-Mutsu wrote:Physiocracy as a formal theory saw its origins in the 18th century, and then meant those the belief "that agriculture was the source of all wealth and that agricultural products should be highly priced" (Oxford Dictionary).

It's categorically wrong though, as agriculture is not the source of all wealth, so why should one support a theory that is wrong right off the bat?


Physiocracy isnt so simple as agriculture is the source of wealth and the more important part of the theory is that only Land-based Agricultural production actually generates SURPLUS WEALTH (you grow more than you sow). Later Artisanal manufacturing and mercantile activity is in fact CONSUMPTION of the Agricultural Surplus and any profit earned at later industries should be seen as analogous to RENT.

The Theory is hugely flawed and needs much work, however it is a ‘better’ theory than Mercantilism/Capitalism in as much as it is based on the Inherent Real Value of Productive Land and Surplus Produce rather than the fiat value of Goods at point of sale.

The theory was inspired by Roman and Confucian models which put Land Owning Agrarian workers at the top of the Social Hierarchy and merchant class at the bottom but I’m not going to pretend to know how a system based on Real Value of Land would work in a modern globalised society.

Nonetheless I do suspect that it would be better in terms of environmental outcomes simply by transferring value to production of agriculutral surplus rather than industrialisation and mercantilism. And really any system that reduces the inordinate influence of Bankers has to be given some credit:)
Unfortunately the Physiocrats were also great defenders of Private Land ownership and Natural Order of Society which was a bit too utopian and didnt really account for how Limited Land ownership would be managed in the face of continual population growth
Last edited by Cetacea on Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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East Gondwana
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Postby East Gondwana » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:31 am

Shin-Mutsu wrote:
Adamede wrote:How the fuck would this survive a nation wide year plus lockdown better than an industrial society?

Hell how could it provide the living standards of an industrial society?

Frankly just sounds like putting a planter aristocracy in charge like in the old Confederacy.


A focus on agriculture leads to self-sufficiency. Park Hyeja argued as much in New Era Physiocractic Socialism.

Only if the agricultural methods and policy are designed around the needs of the polity and its population (now and in the future).

You don't need to have a political focus on agriculture to achieve autarky, and if your polity has insufficient land, or lack of access to necessary technology/infrastructure, resources like water, then you either have to either give up on agricultural self sufficiency or drastically reduce your population (and we all know how lovely and wonderful depopulation policies have been throughout history /s).

Also, what exactly do physiocractic thinkers envisage for politics and society after agricultural self sufficiency is achieved? What is the political framework for technological and social development? How would a physiocratic society organise its political system?
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:57 am

Adam Smith to Karl Marx and everyone inbetween, all unite in dunking on the physiocrats.
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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:31 am

This thread needs a Pol Pot.
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My Political Fantasy
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Postby My Political Fantasy » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:49 am

Farming sucks and people who idolize it haven't worked on one (but it sucks even more if you don't have modern machinery).
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