NationStates

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:06 pm**

Galloism wrote:
Zurkir wrote:
Still, thank you for the funny mental image of mailmen pulling off onto backroads and cramming a night’s worth of forged ballots into the boxes.

You can thank Don Q.

As in Quanon?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:06 pm**

Zurkir wrote:
Galloism wrote:Master Necromancer Mayor Daley is both an aberration overall and voter ID wouldn’t have stopped him, as the fraud was taking place by postal workers, not people showing up and pretending to be dead people.

(So that’s who it was.)

Still, just one example. Although speaking without sources isn’t the best - I’m pretty sure I’ve heard accounts of bringing in repeat and unregistered voters... I didn’t say anything about corpses.

There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:08 pm**

Zurkir wrote:
Galloism wrote:You can thank Don Q.

As in Quanon?

Close tbh

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:10 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Zurkir wrote:
(So that’s who it was.)

Still, just one example. Although speaking without sources isn’t the best - I’m pretty sure I’ve heard accounts of bringing in repeat and unregistered voters... I didn’t say anything about corpses.

There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged!

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:10 pm**

Galloism wrote:
Zurkir wrote:
As in Quanon?

Close tbh

Well now I feel dumb.

However I like the name. I first read Don Quixote in eighth grade, good story.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:14 pm**

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged!

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged! lol

You mean there aren't any US elections with vote fraud? wow my bad.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:14 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Zurkir wrote:
(So that’s who it was.)

Still, just one example. Although speaking without sources isn’t the best - I’m pretty sure I’ve heard accounts of bringing in repeat and unregistered voters... I didn’t say anything about corpses.

There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

Correct, but from what we can tell the amount of voter fraud that is effected by voter ID is miniscule.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 pm**

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged!

PROVE IT.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:15 pm**

Zurkir wrote:(For Kowani.)

Well I mean the United States does have a history of voting fraud in the past. I believe there was a mayor in Chicago (I can’t remember his name.) that was winning elections by ballot stuffing and dragging in repeat voters and unregistered voters. Not a case I’m making for the 2020 election just a generalization. A base point for voter ID it to prevent the votes of eligible voters from being stolen or diluted by a fraudulent or bogus vote cast by an ineligible or imaginary voter.

People in this country need a photo ID for everyday activities from filling a prescription to cashing checks to applying for marriage license and so on. Hans Anatol von Spakovsky who was a member of the FEC spoke along this very basic point.

Regardless of wether or not voting fraud is common or not, to me the reason for having it is valid enough. The reasons to oppose it, not so much. Cynical as this sounds, an overcrowded DMV (that is there year after year when elections are spread years apart) isn’t a good enough reason for axing voter ID simply because the process of getting voter ID is tedious and demanding even. Lots of things are tedious and inconvenient.

it's not just "uncommon"
it flat out doesn't happen. They've looked for it for decades, under immense political pressure, and in no election in the modern era has anyone found any.
At least, not the kind that would be prevented by voter ID.
the Chicago case was unique, because it took place in 1983, predating modern election security measures by decades. And even looking into the details, it wouldn't have been entirely prevented by voter ID either (though some of it would).

EDIT: it appears gallo has mentioned another chicago election that was marred by corruption, i believe his is the correct one

that is the intention, yes.
allow me to give an example. let us say that you, a representative from one party, want to win the election
you know that one neighborhood is more likely to vote for the other party. So what you do is you drastically shut close the ballot boxes in neighborhoods that don't vote for you-and you give them access times at odd hours, so that less people can fit it with their schedule.
These two tricks tend to work great on poor and/or rural areas, in particular.

This - regarding the time-trolling - I concede to your point.
As for limits to ballot box placements and when they can be accessed that I support.

Now regarding the shiving of Brad Raffensperger... *groan* I wasn’t questioning your validity it was more like “...Seriously?” He refused to overturn the Georgia elections so he has to go then?

welcome to the modern GOP, where everything is a purity test

As for the “money and gifts” but the only conceivable defense for that I can come up with is attempted vote buying. Of course I can’t see someone changing their vote over a jelly doughnut or a pizza...

you're correct, they wouldn't
the actual intention is much more cynical: it just so happens that non-white voters in georgia (who overwhelmingly vote democratic) have much less polling places, and much longer lines
now why would people living in a hot state waiting an hour to vote need water in line?
seems like a mystery to me

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:16 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
I KNEW Family Feud was rigged!

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged! lol You mean there aren't any US elections with vote fraud? wow my bad.

Fucking Oscars.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:23 pm**

Zurkir wrote:
Galloism wrote:Master Necromancer Mayor Daley is both an aberration overall and voter ID wouldn’t have stopped him, as the fraud was taking place by postal workers, not people showing up and pretending to be dead people.

(So that’s who it was.)

Still, just one example. Although speaking without sources isn’t the best - I’m pretty sure I’ve heard accounts of bringing in repeat and unregistered voters... I didn’t say anything about corpses.

Everyone has "heard accounts," lies retailed by Republicans interested only in suppressing the vote. Take a look at some facts:

1296 instances of vote fraud out of hundreds of millions of votes since 1992; source: Heritage Foundation (right-wing); includes Republican vote fraud in 2018 NC congressional race

Business Insider: 2,068 potential cases of voter and election fraud and 491 potential cases of mail ballot fraud between 2000 and 2012, out of hundreds of millions of cast ballots. 31 credible cases of voter impersonation between 2000 and 2014, a time period during which over one billion votes were cast. 193 criminal convictions, civil penalties, diversions, or other official findings for fraudulent use of mail ballots between 2000 and 2020, a time period during which approximately 250 million mail ballots were cast, putting the rate of mail ballots resulting in criminal convictions at 0.0006% and the rate of mail ballots resulting in any kind of official action at 0.00007%. Being struck by lightning is more likely.

Most if not all of the "heard accounts" lies pushed by various shysters on behalf of the previous president were not even presented to the courts. Reason: zero evidence. Over 60 courts, state and Federal, with Republican and Democratic judges, including the Supremes twice, threw out every lawsuit brought alleging "fraud." The previous administration's vaunted "fraud commission" had to shut down for lack of evidence.

Joe Biden won a free, fair and fraudless election, period, end of discussion. Get used to it, Republicans. Soon none of your suppression, gerrymandering, or gaslighting will be enough, and all your coup plotters will be in jail.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:24 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:There are many types of elections in the US with different kinds and amounts of vote fraud.

Correct, but from what we can tell the amount of voter fraud that is effected by voter ID is miniscule.

We and I would strongly disagree, so you are saying we don't need voter IDs, just trust anyone who says I am a citizen and I can vote on this election? Citizens or not they can say I can vote on this election, that election and many elections?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:
I KNEW Family Feud was rigged!

I KNEW Family Feud was rigged! lol You mean there aren't any US elections with vote fraud? wow my bad.

The most recent US election in which vote fraud was proven was in 2018 for North Carolina's 9th Congressional district. Unfortunately for your narrative it was perpetrated by the Republican Party.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:32 pm**

Kowani wrote:
Zurkir wrote:(For Kowani.)

Well I mean the United States does have a history of voting fraud in the past. I believe there was a mayor in Chicago (I can’t remember his name.) that was winning elections by ballot stuffing and dragging in repeat voters and unregistered voters. Not a case I’m making for the 2020 election just a generalization. A base point for voter ID it to prevent the votes of eligible voters from being stolen or diluted by a fraudulent or bogus vote cast by an ineligible or imaginary voter.

People in this country need a photo ID for everyday activities from filling a prescription to cashing checks to applying for marriage license and so on. Hans Anatol von Spakovsky who was a member of the FEC spoke along this very basic point.

Regardless of wether or not voting fraud is common or not, to me the reason for having it is valid enough. The reasons to oppose it, not so much. Cynical as this sounds, an overcrowded DMV (that is there year after year when elections are spread years apart) isn’t a good enough reason for axing voter ID simply because the process of getting voter ID is tedious and demanding even. Lots of things are tedious and inconvenient.

it's not just "uncommon"
it flat out doesn't happen. They've looked for it for decades, under immense political pressure, and in no election in the modern era has anyone found any.
At least, not the kind that would be prevented by voter ID.
the Chicago case was unique, because it took place in 1983, predating modern election security measures by decades. And even looking into the details, it wouldn't have been entirely prevented by voter ID either (though some of it would).

EDIT: it appears gallo has mentioned another chicago election that was marred by corruption, i believe his is the correct one

that is the intention, yes.
allow me to give an example. let us say that you, a representative from one party, want to win the election
you know that one neighborhood is more likely to vote for the other party. So what you do is you drastically shut close the ballot boxes in neighborhoods that don't vote for you-and you give them access times at odd hours, so that less people can fit it with their schedule.
These two tricks tend to work great on poor and/or rural areas, in particular.

This - regarding the time-trolling - I concede to your point.
As for limits to ballot box placements and when they can be accessed that I support.

Now regarding the shiving of Brad Raffensperger... *groan* I wasn’t questioning your validity it was more like “...Seriously?” He refused to overturn the Georgia elections so he has to go then?
welcome to the modern GOP, where everything is a purity test

As for the “money and gifts” but the only conceivable defense for that I can come up with is attempted vote buying. Of course I can’t see someone changing their vote over a jelly doughnut or a pizza...

you're correct, they wouldn't
the actual intention is much more cynical: it just so happens that non-white voters in georgia (who overwhelmingly vote democratic) have much less polling places, and much longer lines
now why would people living in a hot state waiting an hour to vote need water in line?
seems like a mystery to me

Well again, I still stand by the voter ID. Without voter ID I believe there would indeed be voter fraud. To me, if there is no recorded voter fraud if anything look at it as (as far as the fraud prevention goes) the system works. Hence leave it as.

Now back to the hand-outs. I do follow the “no money” clause. The food and water inclusion?... honestly that just sounds petty. When I read that it was the first word to come to mind. Petty.
Just to clarify is that restricted to voter personnel (workers I mean) from handing things out or is one not even allowed to bring a drink to someone who’s in line when they text you or?...

I mean that is ridiculous I’m just curious as to how nit-picky it is.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:35 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
When a news source routinely reports conspiracies; that should be a warning flag for you. When a news source gets rather lax with it’s internal fact checking; that should be a warning flag for you.

Your problem is your information is all right wing. People who evaluate tend to have many sources.

Seriously; if an evil leftest source says this nonsense and your sources are talking about conspiracies the deep state and they are looking to make you socialists? Time to jettison them as a major source.

-edit=

I did forget one comment. When you last reported your list of sources. None were leftist. They were all red news outlets of varying degrees.

I ask you and all of you again, decided by whom those who just happen to agree with you by coincidence not by intent of course, or those disagree with you by whatever reasons?

Well considering you believe everything the ex-president says; I can understand why you don’t see a problem with conspiracies and loose fact checking.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:36 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Correct, but from what we can tell the amount of voter fraud that is effected by voter ID is miniscule.

We and I would strongly disagree, so you are saying we don't need voter IDs, just trust anyone who says I am a citizen and I can vote on this election? Citizens or not they can say I can vote on this election, that election and many elections?

I mean Trump won 2016 without them and every case found of Voter fraud were surprisingly votes made for Trump.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:37 pm**

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:I KNEW Family Feud was rigged! lol You mean there aren't any US elections with vote fraud? wow my bad.

The most recent US election in which vote fraud was proven was in 2018 for North Carolina's 9th Congressional district. Unfortunately for your narrative it was perpetrated by the Republican Party.[/quot
So there has never been any Democrat vote fraud elections? Chicago's Democrat Mayor Daley's elections is just one example, as Galloism said, as I said I used to live in Chicago. I have posted the video links of Democrats President Obama, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, protesting the electoral college votes for Republican Presidents Trump and George W Bush, while claiming Republican vote fraud, stating practically the same or exact language at times, that Republicans used to claim Democrat vote fraud against Republican President Trump, but my posts and links with their comments have been ignored and dismissed by the Democrats and Democrat supporters? I wonder why?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:37 pm**

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Zurkir wrote:
(So that’s who it was.)

Still, just one example. Although speaking without sources isn’t the best - I’m pretty sure I’ve heard accounts of bringing in repeat and unregistered voters... I didn’t say anything about corpses.

Everyone has "heard accounts," lies retailed by Republicans interested only in suppressing the vote. Take a look at some facts:

1296 instances of vote fraud out of hundreds of millions of votes since 1992; source: Heritage Foundation (right-wing); includes Republican vote fraud in 2018 NC congressional race

Business Insider: 2,068 potential cases of voter and election fraud and 491 potential cases of mail ballot fraud between 2000 and 2012, out of hundreds of millions of cast ballots. 31 credible cases of voter impersonation between 2000 and 2014, a time period during which over one billion votes were cast. 193 criminal convictions, civil penalties, diversions, or other official findings for fraudulent use of mail ballots between 2000 and 2020, a time period during which approximately 250 million mail ballots were cast, putting the rate of mail ballots resulting in criminal convictions at 0.0006% and the rate of mail ballots resulting in any kind of official action at 0.00007%. Being struck by lightning is more likely.

Most if not all of the "heard accounts" lies pushed by various shysters on behalf of the previous president were not even presented to the courts. Reason: zero evidence. Over 60 courts, state and Federal, with Republican and Democratic judges, including the Supremes twice, threw out every lawsuit brought alleging "fraud." The previous administration's vaunted "fraud commission" had to shut down for lack of evidence.

Joe Biden won a free, fair and fraudless election, period, end of discussion. Get used to it, Republicans. Soon none of your suppression, gerrymandering, or gaslighting will be enough, and all your coup plotters will be in jail.

I’m not even talking about Biden or the previous election? That’s a bit of a straw man. As for the mockery of my simple phrase “heard of accounts” about a Chicago mayor who was elected via fraud (which Galloism actually confirmed) in defense that voter fraud itself does exist even if not to the macro levels that many claim well... calm down.

EDIT: Please understand and observe an argument/debate/exchange before you start throwing firecrackers. Thank you.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:38 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:

The most recent US election in which vote fraud was proven was in 2018 for North Carolina's 9th Congressional district. Unfortunately for your narrative it was perpetrated by the Republican Party.[/quot
So there has never been any Democrat vote fraud elections? Chicago's Democrat Mayor Daley's elections is just one example, as Galloism said, as I said I used to live in Chicago. I have posted the video links of Democrats President Obama, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, protesting the electoral college votes for Republican Presidents Trump and George W Bush, while claiming Republican vote fraud, stating practically the same or exact language at times, that Republicans used to claim Democrat vote fraud against Republican President Trump, but my posts and links with their comments have been ignored and dismissed by the Democrats and Democrat supporters? I wonder why?

Perhaps because they are irrelevant to the argument being made?

Or maybe because those accusations didn't lead to a riot?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:42 pm**

The Black Forrest wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:I ask you and all of you again, decided by whom those who just happen to agree with you by coincidence not by intent of course, or those disagree with you by whatever reasons?

Well considering you believe everything the ex-president says; I can understand why you don’t see a problem with conspiracies and loose fact checking.

You and you guys say I never post an anti Trump Post, but you guys never Post a Pro Trump Post, so we are even. Do you and you guys ever believe anything Republican President Trump said and says?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:45 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Correct, but from what we can tell the amount of voter fraud that is effected by voter ID is miniscule.

We and I would strongly disagree, so you are saying we don't need voter IDs, just trust anyone who says I am a citizen and I can vote on this election? Citizens or not they can say I can vote on this election, that election and many elections?

After 80ish failed lawsuits over the matter; voter id will not solve the problem as there was little if any voter fraud. Take away the republican voter fraud; even less actual fraud.

I will make it simple for you. When there is enough voter fraud to threaten the outcome of an election; by all means we should secure it.

The fact the ex-president lost is NOT an indication of voter fraud.

He lost. Accept it and move on.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:48 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Well considering you believe everything the ex-president says; I can understand why you don’t see a problem with conspiracies and loose fact checking.

You and you guys say I never post an anti Trump Post, but you guys never Post a Pro Trump Post, so we are even. Do you and you guys ever believe anything Republican President Trump said and says?

That actually doesn’t address their point. It’s not about pro or anti so much as you have literally said you will deliberately accept any words that come out of Trump’s mouth. We have every reason to reject your attempts to claim much of anything.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:50 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Well considering you believe everything the ex-president says; I can understand why you don’t see a problem with conspiracies and loose fact checking.

You and you guys say I never post an anti Trump Post, but you guys never Post a Pro Trump Post, so we are even. Do you and you guys ever believe anything Republican President Trump said and says?

Are there things that donald-trump has probably done good-things in our eyes? Probably yes, however the bad outweighs the good, so we talk more about the bad-things then the good-things because there is so little to like about him.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:52 pm**

Greater Miami Shores wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:

The most recent US election in which vote fraud was proven was in 2018 for North Carolina's 9th Congressional district. Unfortunately for your narrative it was perpetrated by the Republican Party.[/quot
So there has never been any Democrat vote fraud elections? Chicago's Democrat Mayor Daley's elections is just one example, as Galloism said, as I said I used to live in Chicago. I have posted the video links of Democrats President Obama, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, protesting the electoral college votes for Republican Presidents Trump and George W Bush, while claiming Republican vote fraud, stating practically the same or exact language at times, that Republicans used to claim Democrat vote fraud against Republican President Trump, but my posts and links with their comments have been ignored and dismissed by the Democrats and Democrat supporters? I wonder why?

The real question is has there been enough voter fraud to change the outcome of the election?

Nobody is arguing there isn’t any voter fraud. You have been told this several times.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:53 pm**

The Black Forrest wrote:
Greater Miami Shores wrote:We and I would strongly disagree, so you are saying we don't need voter IDs, just trust anyone who says I am a citizen and I can vote on this election? Citizens or not they can say I can vote on this election, that election and many elections?

After 80ish failed lawsuits over the matter; voter id will not solve the problem as there was little if any voter fraud. Take away the republican voter fraud; even less actual fraud.

I will make it simple for you. When there is enough voter fraud to threaten the outcome of an election; by all means we should secure it.

The fact the ex-president lost is NOT an indication of voter fraud.

He lost. Accept it and move on.

I think I see you did not address my post and points. There was little if any voter fraud - thank you for at least recognizing their was at least certain vote fraud by the Democrats against Republican President Trump.

NationStates

American Politics IV: 1400 Reasons Why(A Stimulus Serial)