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American Politics IV: 1400 Reasons Why(A Stimulus Serial)

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:08 pm

The Marlborough wrote:Both parties participate in screwing over people's ability to vote. Democrats also like having elections on odd years.

I'll not defend that shit, but before you play bothsiderism, let's talk about which party is doing more to combat voter suppression, yes?

That would be the Democrats.
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Odreria
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Postby Odreria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:10 pm

Voter suppression will unfairly benefit the privileged until it is made universal

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The Marlborough
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:11 pm

Picairn wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:Both parties participate in screwing over people's ability to vote. Democrats also like having elections on odd years.

I'll not defend that shit, but before you play bothsiderism, let's talk about which party is doing more to combat voter suppression, yes?

That would be the Democrats.

They're combating a certain kind of it (though I would only consider picking one form of ID suppression, if all government photo ID's were good it wouldn't be suppression) because electorally it benefits them since it's something their supporters tend to back. That they still engage in it means they don't actually give a shit about it.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Umeria
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:14 pm

The Marlborough wrote:They're combating a certain kind of it (though I would only consider picking one form of ID suppression, if all government photo ID's were good it wouldn't be suppression) because electorally it benefits them since it's something their supporters tend to back. That they still engage in it means they don't actually give a shit about it.

Both parties doing it makes it more of a problem, not less.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:23 pm

Umeria wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:The senate parliamentarian said that a raise in minimum wage was not eligible for budget reconciliation.

That's an advisory opinion, they can literally just ignore it.

Cannot think of a name wrote:In addition, 49 Democratic Senators are into it, Manchin isn't.

So pressure him. Threaten to support a primary against him in 2022. Biden is much more popular than Manchin right now, and will only get more popular if he starts actually fighting for the things he promised.

The Marlborough wrote:You could probably take such arbitrariness to the courts in regards to discrimination if other forms of ID have the same information contained on driver's licenses.

It was taken to the courts, they ruled that the laws were targeted "with surgical precision."


Primary Manchin? He had a primary in 2018 and won it. Someone further to the left is not going to win statewide in West Virginia. The seat is not up until 2024.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:23 pm

Kowani wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Okay, but...you guys understand what actually happened, right?

The senate parliamentarian said that a raise in minimum wage was not eligible for budget reconciliation. In addition, 49 Democratic Senators are into it, Manchin isn't. They were willing to sacrifice that nominal 'bipartisanship' in order to include the $15/hr minimum wage. They don't have an avenue for it, so they're looking for other ways to make some sort of movement on minimum wage.

Not quite "they don't want to upset their corporate masters". I get the urge to criticize the Democrats for not pushing for considerable change...but, like...we could ground it in what's happening instead of just half assing a George Carlin routine every time you don't get everything you want. Because when your critique is this generic, this dismissive...honestly, that's giving them a pass because you're not really paying attention. If your critique to all of this is "their corporate masters" you're a write off. If everything gets the same canned response that doesn't even try to engage with what is actually happening their lack of interest in your wants is self fulfilling.

Plus it'd be cool if people on a political debate forum to at least rise above the YouTube comments section in terms of engagement with a story.

Non paywall version of the story.

that's a nice screed and all
but my article was about that tax plan being abandoned

Cool...and surely you can point to the part in that article that was "because our corporate masters" and not because they don't have the votes or couldn't create the language in time to get the stimulus passed...because people waiting for checks are gonna be super cool waiting a little longer while they continue to tweak and torque something that's gonna probably roadblock the bill anyway. Did your article also include that they were looking at doing the original plan through reconciliation anyway? Does that still sound like 'corporate masters'? Is that what your article said?

Or was it just the same kneejerk hacky fucking shit where you get to dismiss any challenge to it by implying the other person is 'naive.'

So...my point still stands. Maybe if you had engaged with the story it would have been clearer which part of it you were talking about.

I think this forum atrophied after four years of Trump. Got lazy when you had someone saying shit like "What if we injected bleach?" every fucking day.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:29 pm

San Lumen wrote:Primary Manchin? He had a primary in 2018 and won it. Someone further to the left is not going to win statewide in West Virginia. The seat is not up until 2024.

Incorrect, the 2020 nominee for the other seat was well to his left. And yes I meant 2024.
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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:32 pm

Umeria wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Primary Manchin? He had a primary in 2018 and won it. Someone further to the left is not going to win statewide in West Virginia. The seat is not up until 2024.

Incorrect, the 2020 nominee for the other seat was well to his left. And yes I meant 2024.


The 2020 Democratic nominee got 27% of the vote, proving SL's point.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:36 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Kowani wrote:that's a nice screed and all
but my article was about that tax plan being abandoned

Cool...and surely you can point to the part in that article that was "because our corporate masters" and not because they don't have the votes or couldn't create the language in time to get the stimulus passed...because people waiting for checks are gonna be super cool waiting a little longer while they continue to tweak and torque something that's gonna probably roadblock the bill anyway. Did your article also include that they were looking at doing the original plan through reconciliation anyway? Does that still sound like 'corporate masters'? Is that what your article said?

Or was it just the same kneejerk hacky fucking shit where you get to dismiss any challenge to it by implying the other person is 'naive.'

So...my point still stands. Maybe if you had engaged with the story it would have been clearer which part of it you were talking about.

I think this forum atrophied after four years of Trump. Got lazy when you had someone saying shit like "What if we injected bleach?" every fucking day.

quite literally none of this is relevant
for one thing, i never said anything about corporate masters, so you're attacking the wrong person

regardless
people can apply their own interpretations to events and happenings
the story doesn't have to say "donor pressure forced the dems to back off"
we are all aware of the mindset of the dems to start an idea that might be good, get dragged down in details, and then abandon the project partway through-and a substantial portion of that comes from the learned desire to not rock the boat
there's a substantial amount of vitriol in here that comes from literally nowhere
take a breather, mate
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Umeria
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Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:36 pm

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:
Umeria wrote:Incorrect, the 2020 nominee for the other seat was well to his left. And yes I meant 2024.

The 2020 Democratic nominee got 27% of the vote, proving SL's point.

No it doesn't, if Manchin gets primaried and the new nominee loses to a Republican, that's still Manchin losing his seat. So you can still use a primary as leverage.
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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:38 pm

The Marlborough wrote:
Picairn wrote:I'll not defend that shit, but before you play bothsiderism, let's talk about which party is doing more to combat voter suppression, yes?

That would be the Democrats.

They're combating a certain kind of it (though I would only consider picking one form of ID suppression, if all government photo ID's were good it wouldn't be suppression) because electorally it benefits them since it's something their supporters tend to back. That they still engage in it means they don't actually give a shit about it.


Allowing driver's licenses (if that's what you mean) absolutely is suppression. Those who don't have one, have to get another ID specifically to vote. Those people's vote is being suppressed, the only way that matters, which is relatively.

Here's where you say it's not much hassle to get ID. But still enough hassle that people with other ID shouldn't have to.

Nup. You put the same impost on ALL intending voters, or you don't do it at all.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:38 pm

Umeria wrote:
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:The 2020 Democratic nominee got 27% of the vote, proving SL's point.

No it doesn't, if Manchin gets primaried and the new nominee loses to a Republican, that's still Manchin losing his seat. So you can still use a primary as leverage.


So you'd rather lose the seat than have a majority? If you want to win in some states you have to nominate more moderate people.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 pm

Umeria wrote:
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:The 2020 Democratic nominee got 27% of the vote, proving SL's point.

No it doesn't, if Manchin gets primaried and the new nominee loses to a Republican, that's still Manchin losing his seat. So you can still use a primary as leverage.


There's no leverage in threatening something you actually don't want to do.

Bring us someone to the right of Manchin, who stands anywhere near as much chance of winning, and you'd have a plan. Manchin is better than another Republican, leave the man alone.
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Saiwania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Saiwania » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:44 pm

People know how back in World War II that women who were Japanese agents or sympathizers were called Tokyo Rose?

I've just devised a term that I suspect might catch on in the future. It is common knowledge now that China on occasion sends women overseas to act as saboteurs or honeypots which entrap men they seduce or trick into revealing intelligence/assets or whatever else that can harm the US and other opponents of China and its CCP regime for China's gain/benefit. Has already happened on a few occasions, if not being rampant.

The term for such people might be: Beijing Biyu.

Biyu is a feminine Chinese name which translates to "jasper" which is a precious stone over there and nicely aligns with Beijing because it starts with a B as well. A male equivalent might be Beijing Bolin. Bolin is a male Chinese name that translates to "gentle rain." Plus American media culture knows of a Bolin already in a cartoon, which is why chances might be higher for Bolin to be selected to refer to such an element if there is ever any concerted efforts to root out Chinese agents and influence.

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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:45 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Umeria wrote:No it doesn't, if Manchin gets primaried and the new nominee loses to a Republican, that's still Manchin losing his seat. So you can still use a primary as leverage.

So you'd rather lose the seat than have a majority? If you want to win in some states you have to nominate more moderate people.

Yes, I would rather fight evil and lose than become evil and win. And a $15 minimum wage is the moderate position, what's radical is not paying people enough to survive.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Manchin is better than another Republican, leave the man alone.

Uh no he isn't, as exemplified by the fact that he won't vote for the bare minimum reform?
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:48 pm

Umeria wrote:
San Lumen wrote:So you'd rather lose the seat than have a majority? If you want to win in some states you have to nominate more moderate people.

Yes, I would rather fight evil and lose than become evil and win. And a $15 minimum wage is the moderate position, what's radical is not paying people enough to survive.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Manchin is better than another Republican, leave the man alone.

Uh no he isn't, as exemplified by the fact that he won't vote for the bare minimum reform?


Someone further to left is not going to win in West Virginia. What part of that do you not understand? It would be throwing the seat away and possibly the majority.

That'd be like Republicans successfully primarying Baker or Scott in Massachusetts and Vermont with a Trump supporting Qanon cultist and expecting to win the general election for governor. They would be throwing away the election.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Umeria
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Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:51 pm

San Lumen wrote:Someone further to left is not going to win in West Virginia. What part of that do you not understand? It would be throwing the seat away and possibly the majority.

Letting Manchin keep the seat is throwing it away.
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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:52 pm

Umeria wrote:
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Manchin is better than another Republican, leave the man alone.

Uh no he isn't, as exemplified by the fact that he won't vote for the bare minimum reform?


Yes. Remember how much consideration Democrat bills got when McConnell led the Senate?

None of Biden's appointees would be confirmed by now. It would be absolute misery. If you think it doesn't matter who controls the Senate, then you have a very short memory!
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Picairn
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Picairn » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:53 pm

Umeria wrote:Yes, I would rather fight evil and lose than become evil and win. And a $15 minimum wage is the moderate position, what's radical is not paying people enough to survive.

Uh no he isn't, as exemplified by the fact that he won't vote for the bare minimum reform?

"Fight evil and lose than become evil and win". Dude, this is reality, not some kind of RPG game where you can just retry after losing. If the stimulus bill is withheld any longer, we might not be able to pass it before mid-March. The result would be disastrous for millions of Americans.

Manchin won in a state that voted Trump by 27 points. The fact that he can win and hold his seat there alone is a miracle.
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Greater Miami Shores
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Greater Miami Shores » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:56 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Xanthal wrote:Until plurality voting goes away, any third party that amasses a significant portion of the vote will either be rolled into one of the existing two major parties or replace it within a few election cycles.

Anything that keeps Republicans out of power is a good thing.

:) lol:
Anything that keeps Democrats out of power is a good thing

GMS - GMS - GMS :) lol.

GMS - GMS - GMS :) lol.

GMS - GMS - GMS :) lol.

:rofl: lol
I'm having a lol Attack.
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Umeria
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Founded: Mar 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Umeria » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:58 pm

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Yes. Remember how much consideration Democrat bills got when McConnell led the Senate?

I do. When the Republicans fell in line behind McConnell, he got his agenda passed.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:None of Biden's appointees would be confirmed by now. It would be absolute misery. If you think it doesn't matter who controls the Senate, then you have a very short memory!

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it only matters if they can get Manchin to vote with them.
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Tyunmen
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Founded: Jul 12, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Tyunmen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:00 pm

Picairn wrote:
Umeria wrote:Yes, I would rather fight evil and lose than become evil and win. And a $15 minimum wage is the moderate position, what's radical is not paying people enough to survive.

Uh no he isn't, as exemplified by the fact that he won't vote for the bare minimum reform?

"Fight evil and lose than become evil and win". Dude, this is reality, not some kind of RPG game where you can just retry after losing. If the stimulus bill is withheld any longer, we might not be able to pass it before mid-March. The result would be disastrous for millions of Americans.

Manchin won in a state that voted Trump by 27 points. The fact that he can win and hold his seat there alone is a miracle.

I mean eh, Manchin is the successor of the archconservative of the archconservative-democrats, E.I Robert Byrd. So I say its less of a Miracle and more of the legacy of that one guy.

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San Lumen
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New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:05 pm

Umeria wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Someone further to left is not going to win in West Virginia. What part of that do you not understand? It would be throwing the seat away and possibly the majority.

Letting Manchin keep the seat is throwing it away.


How? someone like Sanders or AOC or Omar is not going to win there or in states like it. Having a majority sometimes means you need more moderate people. Unless you want a permanent minority. If Manchin had lost in 2018 Biden would be getting nothing done right now. His Cabinet wouldn't be confirmed and he'd get no judges on the bench but none of that matters only we get pure progressives because surely that a winning ticket.

Someone progressive was nominated in West Virginia in 2020 and they only got 27 percent of the vote. Do you not see how ridiculous your being here?
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A-Series-Of-Tubes
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Founded: Dec 16, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby A-Series-Of-Tubes » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:13 pm

Umeria wrote:
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Yes. Remember how much consideration Democrat bills got when McConnell led the Senate?

I do. When the Republicans fell in line behind McConnell, he got his agenda passed.

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:None of Biden's appointees would be confirmed by now. It would be absolute misery. If you think it doesn't matter who controls the Senate, then you have a very short memory!

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it only matters if they can get Manchin to vote with them.


It matters for nominations too. That "no new Justices in an election year" would get a footnote: "... or any other year."

A compromise like $12 minimum wage (sooner) would be better than it staying at $7, and if you bear in mind that last time Democrats raised the minimum wage it was in three annual steps (beginning 2007), you could have $9 right away, $10.50 next year, and $12 in 2023. And that's even if Democrats lose the Senate at the next mid-term. All they need is the House to prevent it being repealed.

But I know. Never take the compromise because it uses up political capital. Also Bernie would cry.
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The Marlborough
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Marlborough » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:13 pm

A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:They're combating a certain kind of it (though I would only consider picking one form of ID suppression, if all government photo ID's were good it wouldn't be suppression) because electorally it benefits them since it's something their supporters tend to back. That they still engage in it means they don't actually give a shit about it.


Allowing driver's licenses (if that's what you mean) absolutely is suppression. Those who don't have one, have to get another ID specifically to vote. Those people's vote is being suppressed, the only way that matters, which is relatively.

Here's where you say it's not much hassle to get ID. But still enough hassle that people with other ID shouldn't have to.

Nup. You put the same impost on ALL intending voters, or you don't do it at all.

I said other government photo ID's should be allowed when it comes to voting.
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