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French government denounces American Woke Left

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:40 pm
by Ostroeuropa
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/worl ... d=re-share

In doing so they join a number of other European governments in the "War on woke", including the UK and many eastern European countries.

Notable is that a sizable number of French Academics have joined in the condemnation.

(Anyone ready for a new wave of francophilia in the west if their academia begins adopting a different approach to these issues?).

Obviously I approve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/worl ... ities.html
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/french-le ... -to-france
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-say.html

I suspect that the usual arguments will be well trodden here, but specifically I've made this thread to discuss the geopolitical implications of a schism in the west over these kind of things between Europe and America and whether people think Europe will begin to resist these movements more vigorously on their own soil.

I think a growing consensus among European governments that the woke left is a threat to society and needs to be dealt with will lead to more confidence about crack downs on them and removal of their influence in institutions and so on as they will no longer be acting as a single nation and open to Americans trying to isolate them. We may see more regulation on American media from Europe or more European alternatives springing up.

It may also strain the relationship between the continents but i expect the alignment of capital interests will mean we continue to work together.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:45 pm
by Major-Tom
Fringe theories stemming in America are considered fringe elsewhere, not really newsworthy. I still anticipate people to take this as France's attack on the American left as a whole because people are terrible at reading within the margins.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:46 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Major-Tom wrote:Fringe theories stemming in America are considered fringe elsewhere, not really newsworthy. I still anticipate people to take this as France's attack on the American left as a whole because people are terrible at reading within the margins.


These theories are fringe in terms of popular support, but are overwhelmingly overrepresented in institutions of influence and in the media.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:52 pm
by Major-Tom
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:Fringe theories stemming in America are considered fringe elsewhere, not really newsworthy. I still anticipate people to take this as France's attack on the American left as a whole because people are terrible at reading within the margins.


These theories are fringe in terms of popular support, but are overwhelmingly overrepresented in institutions of influence and in the media.


Speaking as an American, it's more of a grey area. Not overwhelmingly overrepresented nor statistically insignificant. Either way, I perceive it as more annoying than threatening. If some English professors want to talk about some bizarre theories in the lit classroom, it's more of an annoyance to students than a threat to their way of life. If some people at Mother Jones want to make some ludicrous arguments about the evils of "mansplaining" or some shit, it's going to piss people off more than it does threaten our cohesiveness as a nation.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:55 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Major-Tom wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
These theories are fringe in terms of popular support, but are overwhelmingly overrepresented in institutions of influence and in the media.


Speaking as an American, it's more of a grey area. Not overwhelmingly overrepresented nor statistically insignificant. Either way, I perceive it as more annoying than threatening. If some English professors want to talk about some bizarre theories in the lit classroom, it's more of an annoyance to students than a threat to their way of life. If some people at Mother Jones want to make some ludicrous arguments about the evils of "mansplaining" or some shit, it's going to piss people off more than it does threaten our cohesiveness as a nation.


I disagree. We've seen a lot of laws being passed as a result of it as well as an overall breakdown in race relations and so on. Perhaps America is not as badly affected as the nations being spammed with this content by America.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:57 pm
by Echo Chamber Thought Police
this thread is gonna end well im sure

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:58 pm
by Major-Tom
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
Speaking as an American, it's more of a grey area. Not overwhelmingly overrepresented nor statistically insignificant. Either way, I perceive it as more annoying than threatening. If some English professors want to talk about some bizarre theories in the lit classroom, it's more of an annoyance to students than a threat to their way of life. If some people at Mother Jones want to make some ludicrous arguments about the evils of "mansplaining" or some shit, it's going to piss people off more than it does threaten our cohesiveness as a nation.


I disagree. We've seen a lot of laws being passed as a result of it as well as an overall breakdown in race relations and so on. Perhaps America is not as badly affected as the nations being spammed with this content by America.


What laws in the US, at the federal level, have been "woke?" I mean, we've made strides in criminal justice reform, in sentencing laws, in protections for Transgender individuals, all of which some consider "woke" but really are just necessary social shifts and policies for an equitable nation.

I've seen no legislation regarding some of the more bizarre, absurd "wokeisms" if we want to call it that. Sure, maybe some University Policies here and there have incorporated some of those dumber elements, or some local ordinances. But they're just that. Dumb. The focus on the broader cultural war I've seen from self-described "Anti-SJW" types and "Woke Left" types is what's really moronic.

At the end of the day, it's a distraction from the real issues that plague my country.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:00 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Major-Tom wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I disagree. We've seen a lot of laws being passed as a result of it as well as an overall breakdown in race relations and so on. Perhaps America is not as badly affected as the nations being spammed with this content by America.


What laws in the US, at the federal level, have been "woke?" I mean, we've made strides in criminal justice reform, in sentencing laws, in protections for Transgender individuals, all of which some consider "woke" but really are just necessary social shifts and policies for an equitable nation.

I've seen no legislation regarding some of the more bizarre, absurd "wokeisms" if we want to call it that.


VAWA is one example, but to be sure, the legislative paralysis gripping the US has prevented woke ideology from being as big a problem for them legislatively in the same way as it has in other countries, though still as detrimental to social cohesion and national identity and so on.

Sure, maybe some University Policies here and there have incorporated some of those dumber elements, or some local ordinances. But they're just that. Dumb. The focus on the broader cultural war I've seen from self-described "Anti-SJW" types and "Woke Left" types is what's really moronic.

At the end of the day, it's a distraction from the real issues that plague my country.


The university policies that, for example, undermine the due process rights of men?

I personally think it's a "real issue" if universities are being racist and sexist towards particular demographics and driving a worsening lack of their attendance in those institutions. It's bad for social mobility.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:00 pm
by The Marlborough
Good on France. That isn't to say there aren't issues with racism in other Western countries but they are not comparable to the American situation and do not require the same approach to dealing with them since the histories are different, the cultures are different, and the way it is manifested in each country is different in terms of scope and intensity. Exporting these issues (and not just racism but even things like gun politics) outside of its borders has been a growing problem.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:02 pm
by Major-Tom
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
What laws in the US, at the federal level, have been "woke?" I mean, we've made strides in criminal justice reform, in sentencing laws, in protections for Transgender individuals, all of which some consider "woke" but really are just necessary social shifts and policies for an equitable nation.

I've seen no legislation regarding some of the more bizarre, absurd "wokeisms" if we want to call it that.


VAWA is one example, but to be sure, the legislative paralysis gripping the US has prevented woke ideology from being as big a problem for them legislatively in the same way as it has in other countries, though still as detrimental to social cohesion and national identity and so on.


The Violence Against Women Act? I don't know if that's woke as much as it is legislation that has been revised to protect women from, well, domestic violence. I know a common gripe with it is that the language doesn't explicitly cover men who suffer from domestic violence as well, but that's something that can be revised, not an example of an inherent problem with otherwise noble legislation.

I feel, at the end of the day, a lot of your talking points really boil down to a woman vs man sort of dichotomy, and I don't know if that's the foremost way to look at complex issues.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:04 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Major-Tom wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
VAWA is one example, but to be sure, the legislative paralysis gripping the US has prevented woke ideology from being as big a problem for them legislatively in the same way as it has in other countries, though still as detrimental to social cohesion and national identity and so on.


The Violence Against Women Act? I don't know if that's woke as much as it is legislation that has been revised to protect women from, well, domestic violence. I know a common gripe with it is that the language doesn't explicitly cover men who suffer from domestic violence as well, but that's something that can be revised, not an example of an inherent problem with otherwise noble legislation.


It's a problem arising from the social theories the movement espouses. I disagree the legislation is noble given these problems (And they're not just semantic, but relate to resource distribution).

There's also the problem of woke institutional policies adopted as you noted in your edit, not merely legislation at a federal level.

I feel, at the end of the day, a lot of your talking points really boil down to a woman vs man sort of dichotomy, and I don't know if that's the foremost way to look at complex issues.


I'm *objecting to and opposing this dichotomy*.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:06 pm
by Major-Tom
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
The Violence Against Women Act? I don't know if that's woke as much as it is legislation that has been revised to protect women from, well, domestic violence. I know a common gripe with it is that the language doesn't explicitly cover men who suffer from domestic violence as well, but that's something that can be revised, not an example of an inherent problem with otherwise noble legislation.


It's a problem arising from the social theories the movement espouses. I disagree the legislation is noble given these problems (And they're not just semantic, but relate to resource distribution).

There's also the problem of woke institutional policies adopted as you noted in your edit, not merely legislation at a federal level.

I feel, at the end of the day, a lot of your talking points really boil down to a woman vs man sort of dichotomy, and I don't know if that's the foremost way to look at complex issues.


I'm *objecting to and opposing this dichotomy*.


Well, if the whole premise of the legislation is to protect women from domestic violence and similar situations, then I think it's easy to argue that the intention is noble even if there are flaws (which can be fixed) with the implementation.

But I'll move on, because this is getting so esoteric that it hardly relates to the main topic at hand.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:09 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Major-Tom wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's a problem arising from the social theories the movement espouses. I disagree the legislation is noble given these problems (And they're not just semantic, but relate to resource distribution).

There's also the problem of woke institutional policies adopted as you noted in your edit, not merely legislation at a federal level.



I'm *objecting to and opposing this dichotomy*.


Well, if the whole premise of the legislation is to protect women from domestic violence and similar situations, then I think it's easy to argue that the intention is noble even if there are flaws (which can be fixed) with the implementation.

But I'll move on, because this is getting so esoteric that it hardly relates to the main topic at hand.


That's a gynocentric conclusion. Just because something is good for women does not mean it is good for society. Intent is not relevant if your good intentions are filtered through awful ideology that produces negative outcomes.

Eh, a little sidetracked sure, but this is a good example of how these ideologies threaten social cohesion and pit demographics against eachother and why France and other European countries are turning against it.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:13 pm
by Nilokeras
I think the fact that this entire kerfuffle stems from the decision of an opera director to not use the traditional blackface in one of their works says everything you need to know about the 'anti woke'ists.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:14 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Nilokeras wrote:I think the fact that this entire kerfuffle stems from the decision of an opera director to not use the traditional blackface in one of their works says everything you need to know about the 'anti woke'ists.


You're acting like this is the only incident rather than another step in a long line of them and a gradual escalation over time, including into areas the woke left previously adamantly denied they would ever go and characterized people as paranoid and exaggerating when they brought them up as inevitable consequences of the ideas they were espousing.

"All this over Danzig?"

It's more likely that it was a long time brewing given how it was a wide range of people coming out to denounce the woke left in a coordinated fashion and this is simply the latest incident.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:15 pm
by Galloism
Major-Tom wrote:Well, if the whole premise of the legislation is to protect women from domestic violence and similar situations, then I think it's easy to argue that the intention is noble even if there are flaws (which can be fixed) with the implementation.

But I'll move on, because this is getting so esoteric that it hardly relates to the main topic at hand.

You know, if Congress passed a stimulus where all white people get a $1400 check due to the impact covid has had on our white population, I wouldn't say "the intention is noble even if there are flaws".

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:21 pm
by Nilokeras
Ostroeuropa wrote:You're acting like this is the only incident rather than another step in a long line of them and a gradual escalation over time, including into areas the woke left previously adamantly denied they would ever go and characterized people as paranoid and exaggerating when they brought them up as inevitable consequences of the ideas they were espousing.


And this step over the line is... not doing blackface?

Ostroeuropa wrote:"All this over Danzig?"


Ah yes, thinking blackface is maybe not something we should do is definitely equivalent to Nazism.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Nilokeras wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:You're acting like this is the only incident rather than another step in a long line of them and a gradual escalation over time, including into areas the woke left previously adamantly denied they would ever go and characterized people as paranoid and exaggerating when they brought them up as inevitable consequences of the ideas they were espousing.


And this step over the line is... not doing blackface?

Ostroeuropa wrote:"All this over Danzig?"


Ah yes, thinking blackface is maybe not something we should do is definitely equivalent to Nazism.


The step over the line would be the self-flagellating nonsense of pandering to people who think blackface in a non-derogatory fashion in a traditional format is racism.

+

It doesn't have to be equivalent to Nazism and I think you're deliberately avoiding the point.

I'm pointing out to you that if you keep ripping up deals that say you wont do things when people point out they're worried "If we give you X, you're going to take Y later on", then eventually, people have had enough and will react to the totality of your demands, not merely the latest one, but also the ones they're worried you're going to do in future, and you denying "I'm not going to do that in future" no longer means anything to them.

The woke left has almost no legitimacy left outside of its ardent adherents because of how they have behaved over the past few decades.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:27 pm
by Arisyan
*sighs*. Dear god. What, is even your problem with the "woke left", which isn't even really true because wokeists are an entire political spectrum on their own. But I digress. There are far, far more problems going on in the world then SJWs complaining about man spreading.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:29 pm
by Ostroeuropa
Arisyan wrote:*sighs*. Dear god. What, is even your problem with the "woke left", which isn't even really true because wokeists are an entire political spectrum on their own. But I digress. There are far, far more problems going on in the world then SJWs complaining about man spreading.


I dislike their theories on sexism, racism, nationalism, and so on. I think they're oppressive and threatening to our cultures and societies.
Plenty of people care about these issues and how they prioritize issues is ultimately subjective, there's no right answer.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:31 pm
by Borderlands of Rojava
My only thing is what is and isn't woke? That's a question I ask both the woke crowd and anti woke crowd because the borderline is hazy.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:36 pm
by Nilokeras
Ostroeuropa wrote:The step over the line would be the self-flagellating nonsense of pandering to people who think blackface in a non-derogatory fashion in a traditional format is racism.


'Traditional' blackface, where characters who wear them are famously villains or the butts of jokes isn't derogatory towards POC?

Ostroeuropa wrote:I'm pointing out to you that if you keep ripping up deals that say you wont do things when people point out they're worried "If we give you X, you're going to take Y later on", then eventually, people have had enough and will react to the totality of your demands, not merely the latest one, but also the ones they're worried you're going to do in future, and you denying "I'm not going to do that in future" no longer means anything to them.


People have been pointing out that blackface is racist for well over a hundred years now. This isn't some new thing.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:38 pm
by Albrenia
Is it bad that I don't care? I doubt the 'woke' people do either. Or the anti-woke people for that matter, beyond enjoying someone agreeing with them.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:40 pm
by Echo Chamber Thought Police
ostro, you need to get out of 2016

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:42 pm
by Celritannia
Why is this even considered as an issue?