French government denounces American Woke Left

[UniversalCommons]

When genetic testing becomes much more powerful a determiner of what people are capable of, there will be a move away from ethnic classifications to tested classifications if the technology becomes cheap enough. Combine this with testing for ancestral DNA and things will change considerably. People will be discriminated on because of genetic health, genetic propensity for mental illness, and other reasons eventually. Also people will begin to be identified by their ancestral DNA, not just race.

This idea of majority is dying. What is happening is there is racial pluralism. No one will be in control. Racists who love to label themselves a specific ethnic identity will not be able to have a majority. It already is happening. There will be limits on any one group trying to be in control. This upsets lots of people. Identity politics will change. It is hard to know exactly how in the United States for example.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/r ... y-are.html

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

When genetic testing becomes much more powerful a determiner of what people are capable of, there will be a move away from ethnic classifications to tested classifications if the technology becomes cheap enough. Combine this with testing for ancestral DNA and things will change considerably. People will be discriminated on because of genetic health, genetic propensity for mental illness, and other reasons eventually. Also people will begin to be identified by their ancestral DNA, not just race.

Ah sure. I might have steppe ancestry haha since my Y chromosome haplogroup is N. Does that mean at least paternally I belong to the Turanic race? Finnish & Hungarian & Turkish pride world wide?

[Fahran]

When genetic testing becomes much more powerful a determiner of what people are capable of, there will be a move away from ethnic classifications to tested classifications if the technology becomes cheap enough.

I mean ethnicity is a cultural thing, not a superiority thing. I have no idea why it would simply cease to matter because of genetic testing. I don't associate with my fellow Jews because I think we're better than all y'all. I do it because we have a share culture and religion, and thus can better relate to one another's experiences.

Combine this with testing for ancestral DNA and things will change considerably. People will be discriminated on because of genetic health, genetic propensity for mental illness, and other reasons eventually. Also people will begin to be identified by their ancestral DNA, not just race.

Unless you go around wearing a badge that has your genetic ancestors written on it, and depending on how far back we got that might well prove inconsequential, I'm skeptical it'll matter all that much. Race is based on physical appearance as a rule, not anything else.

[The Lone Alliance]

Strangely though one way that American society was improving racially and that was partly because people stopped seeing race as the ultimate decider of what a person was, or we did

When?

When people stopped falling back on their fainting couches because of interracial dating, marriage, and children. If people were still just as racist today as they were back then, then the conditions for such things shouldn't be able to happen.

Racism itself is not over though, it wasn't ended with the civil rights movement, it wasn't ended with Obama being elected, and it wasn't ended because a bunch of corporations said BLM.

Hell it's highly unlikely that racism will ever be completely destroyed, though I feel that Identity politics has had a negative side effect of projecting power towards racists again.

[Fahran]

Ah sure. I might have steppe ancestry haha since my Y chromosome haplogroup is N. Does that mean at least paternally I belong to the Turanic race?

Trick question. Everybody is actually a Turk. :^)

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ah sure. I might have steppe ancestry haha since my Y chromosome haplogroup is N. Does that mean at least paternally I belong to the Turanic race?

Trick question. Everybody is actually a Turk. :^)

Haha. Well I may actually have a legitimate claim of being a Turkic or Uralic person (at least paternally lol). I do personally prefer Turanic as it unites everything from Finland and Hungary to Korea haha.

Humanity consists of Turks and the Turkic nation consist of (all) humans. These two sets are equal. This is the solution to all racial and ethnic problems of the world: there are White Turks. There are Black Turks. There are Yellow Turks. There are Brown Turks. However there are no non-Turks unless you are talking about (Turkish) cats, (Turkish) dogs etc. The world is Turkey and Turkey is the world.

#TheEnd
#RelocateUNHeadquarterToIstanbulNow

[Fedel]

I don't think "white" is a term that should be used in place of "oppressors" as it's naturally going to create division between people with features that the vast majority of humankind perceives as "white" ( most of whom who are not directly responsible for oppression ) and everybody else.

That's fine. Simply the group that wields the most power.

Yup and most people in the world rightfully consider Middle Easterners and many Indians white because no matter what WNs think of them they indeed objectively are. That hasn’t made whiter North Indians richer than darker South Indians though.

Power is divided. Please reread my edited post and tell me which power do you care about. I guess it is not demographic. Economic power is tricky since in many societies it is held by a middleman minority who are vulnerable to appropriation and mass murder but generally manage to come back no matter how many massacres happened. Military power usually correlates with political power but that can also be false.

So for example in late Ottoman Empire who were the oppressors? Kurdish militants? Armenian businessmen? Turkish officials? Albanian & Circassian Pashas? See? The Caucasoid-African power dynamic is relatively simple. Most of the world and increasingly even America itself (e.g. are Indian developers less privileged or more privileged than white ones? They both have respective structural advantages) is not like that.

I'm glad you can agree identifying them on that basis isn't especially useful and can be quite unhelpful in a variety of ways.

I care about power not being concentrated into the hands who push their tribe at the expense of others. If you're talking about the particular type of power, that depends on what type is the most influential in that particular society. I would say in a society like the United States, communication and thought shaping institutions are of a particular concern to me.

I just wouldn't call minorities that are now achieving relative levels of influence and power with a group most would consider "white" as white themselves. It reinforces a divisive narrative and dynamic. Separating people on the basis of characteristics they have no control over is not healthy nor overly helpful.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Yup and most people in the world rightfully consider Middle Easterners and many Indians white because no matter what WNs think of them they indeed objectively are. That hasn’t made whiter North Indians richer than darker South Indians though.

Power is divided. Please reread my edited post and tell me which power do you care about. I guess it is not demographic. Economic power is tricky since in many societies it is held by a middleman minority who are vulnerable to appropriation and mass murder but generally manage to come back no matter how many massacres happened. Military power usually correlates with political power but that can also be false.

So for example in late Ottoman Empire who were the oppressors? Kurdish militants? Armenian businessmen? Turkish officials? Albanian & Circassian Pashas? See? The Caucasoid-African power dynamic is relatively simple. Most of the world and increasingly even America itself (e.g. are Indian developers less privileged or more privileged than white ones? They both have respective structural advantages) is not like that.

I'm glad you can agree identifying them on that basis isn't especially useful and can be quite unhelpful in a variety of ways.

I care about power not being concentrated into the hands who push their tribe at the expense of others. If you're talking about the particular type of power, that depends on what type is the most influential in that particular society. I would say in a society like the United States, communication and thought shaping institutions are of a particular concern to me.

I just wouldn't call minorities that are now achieving relative levels of influence and power with a group most would consider "white" as white themselves. It reinforces a divisive narrative and dynamic. Separating people on the basis of characteristics they have no control over is not healthy nor overly helpful.

In most societies power is not concentrated. Different groups push their hands at the expense of others and usually there is some form of balance of power as opposed to a winner-takes-all scenario. Again what you described is pretty much a unique problem in West European settler colonies.

[Fedel]

I'm glad you can agree identifying them on that basis isn't especially useful and can be quite unhelpful in a variety of ways.

I care about power not being concentrated into the hands who push their tribe at the expense of others. If you're talking about the particular type of power, that depends on what type is the most influential in that particular society. I would say in a society like the United States, communication and thought shaping institutions are of a particular concern to me.

I just wouldn't call minorities that are now achieving relative levels of influence and power with a group most would consider "white" as white themselves. It reinforces a divisive narrative and dynamic. Separating people on the basis of characteristics they have no control over is not healthy nor overly helpful.

In most societies power is not concentrated. Different groups push their hands at the expense of others and usually there is some form of balance of power as opposed to a winner-takes-all scenario. Again what you described is pretty much a unique problem in West European settler colonies.

That's fine.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

In most societies power is not concentrated. Different groups push their hands at the expense of others and usually there is some form of balance of power as opposed to a winner-takes-all scenario. Again what you described is pretty much a unique problem in West European settler colonies.

That's fine.

This is why it needs a unique solution.

I would actually argue that the level of tribalism is not excessively high in such societies compared to the much more brutal societies in East Europe and Turkey where they regularly resort to measures even more brutal than even the KKK such as full ethnic cleansings. Instead the main problem in these societies is that the power difference is way too large. East Europe and Middle East could tolerate a lot more racism because the power difference is much smaller and hence racism rarely causes one ethnic group to be largely or even entirely wiped out. It’s really just Serbs win for a few years and Croats or Bulgarians for another a few years. Same for Turks vs Greeks, Armenians vs Azeris. Economically the difference is also not huge.

So I guess the real solution is full mixing. People should be divided according to views and culture but not race. If people can be similar to each other but look very different then there is a lot of mixing to do until the problem is fixed.

Things are particularly interesting in the South since the white-black distinction in anything other than skin color is not even clear. They eat the same food, have the same surnames, speak the same dialect that is distinct from American English elsewhere and serve in the same military. I do wonder whether Jim Crow was really because there is really almost no distinction other than appearance as opposed to anything else.

[Fedel]

That's fine.

This is why it needs a unique solution. I would actually argue that the level of tribalism is not excessively high in such societies compared to the much more brutal societies in East Europe and Turkey where they regularly resort to measures even more brutal than even the KKK such as full ethnic cleansings.

Instead the main problem in these societies is that the power difference is way too large. East Europe and Middle East could tolerate a lot more racism because the power difference is much smaller and hence racism rarely causes one ethnic group to be largely or even entirely wiped out. It’s really just Serbs win for a few years and Croats or Bulgarians for another a few years. Same for Turks vs Greeks, Armenians vs Azeris. Economically the difference is also not huge.

I think they're much more subtle, but no less present tbh. They're less based in ethnic struggles and more based in ideological difference. I would say it's primarily based in different views on human nature and generally a liberty vs authority dynamic ( though there are of course exceptions on both sides and specific ethno-national concerns that bleed over ). I would say the current day Republican party is too focused on responding to the Left/Liberals/Democrats. They tend to cry foul and hold firm against the position of their opponents regardless of what that position is. It's just that so many of the positions being espoused by that opposition are, in my view, antithetical to human nature and the goal of eliminating division between members of the human race, that their blind cries of "Nay!" Are hitting the mark more often than not.

That's a very good point.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

This is why it needs a unique solution. I would actually argue that the level of tribalism is not excessively high in such societies compared to the much more brutal societies in East Europe and Turkey where they regularly resort to measures even more brutal than even the KKK such as full ethnic cleansings.

Instead the main problem in these societies is that the power difference is way too large. East Europe and Middle East could tolerate a lot more racism because the power difference is much smaller and hence racism rarely causes one ethnic group to be largely or even entirely wiped out. It’s really just Serbs win for a few years and Croats or Bulgarians for another a few years. Same for Turks vs Greeks, Armenians vs Azeris. Economically the difference is also not huge.

I think they're much more subtle, but no less present tbh. They're less based in ethnic struggles and more based in ideological difference. I would say it's primarily based in different views on human nature and generally a liberty vs authority dynamic ( though there are of course exceptions on both sides and specific ethno-national concerns that bleed over ). I would say the current day Republican party is too focused on responding to the Left/Liberals/Democrats. They tend to cry foul and hold firm against the position of their opponents regardless of the position. It's just that so many of the positions being espoused by that opposition are, in my view, antithetical to human nature and the goal of eliminating division between members of the human race, that their blind cries of "Nay!" Are hitting the mark more often than not.

That's a very good point.

Ideological issues can usually be addressed peacefully in dialogue. It is ethnic issues that tend to get really bloody. The very idea that people care about opinions more than appearance or ancestry is one that if true will make America normal and healthy.

[Fedel]

I think they're much more subtle, but no less present tbh. They're less based in ethnic struggles and more based in ideological difference. I would say it's primarily based in different views on human nature and generally a liberty vs authority dynamic ( though there are of course exceptions on both sides and specific ethno-national concerns that bleed over ). I would say the current day Republican party is too focused on responding to the Left/Liberals/Democrats. They tend to cry foul and hold firm against the position of their opponents regardless of the position. It's just that so many of the positions being espoused by that opposition are, in my view, antithetical to human nature and the goal of eliminating division between members of the human race, that their blind cries of "Nay!" Are hitting the mark more often than not.

That's a very good point.

Ideological issues can usually be addressed peacefully in dialogue. It is ethnic issues that tend to get really bloody. The very idea that people care about opinions more than appearance or ancestry is one that if true will make America normal and healthy.

Ah! You've hit the nail on the head. What if many of the major mediums by which peaceful dialogue can occur are being slowly altered to encourage a specific type of ideology and way of thinking? In that case, it might lead to the frustration on the part of the members of the ideology being repressed and, in lieu of peaceful dialogue, cause them to carry out other types of actions which might manifest itself as tangible impact. You've been a very intelligent partner thus far so I have some degree of faith in your understanding of this dynamic.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ideological issues can usually be addressed peacefully in dialogue. It is ethnic issues that tend to get really bloody. The very idea that people care about opinions more than appearance or ancestry is one that if true will make America normal and healthy.

Ah! You've hit the nail on the head. What if many of the major mediums by which peaceful dialogue can occur are being slowly altered to encourage a specific type of ideology and way of thinking? In that case, it might lead to the frustration on the part of the members of the ideology being repressed and, in lieu of peaceful dialogue, cause them to carry out other types of actions which might manifest itself as tangible influence. You've been a very intelligent partner thus far so I have some degree of faith in your understanding of this dynamic.

Yes. I do support freedom of speech and dialogue. There are things that need to be outside the Overton Window such as ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing and other forms of murdering or expelling “wrong people” but most ideologies should be allowed.

Biased institutions are definitely problematic. To address this issue we need to protect freedom of speech while at the same time removing any ethnically dangerous stuff.

[Fedel]

Ah! You've hit the nail on the head. What if many of the major mediums by which peaceful dialogue can occur are being slowly altered to encourage a specific type of ideology and way of thinking? In that case, it might lead to the frustration on the part of the members of the ideology being repressed and, in lieu of peaceful dialogue, cause them to carry out other types of actions which might manifest itself as tangible influence. You've been a very intelligent partner thus far so I have some degree of faith in your understanding of this dynamic.

Yes. I do support freedom of speech and dialogue. There are things that need to be outside the Overton Window such as ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing and other forms of murdering or expelling “wrong people” but most ideologies should be allowed.

I believe education is the cure for ignorance myself, but I believe I understand the basis of your espoused principle and can respect it to an extent.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Yes. I do support freedom of speech and dialogue. There are things that need to be outside the Overton Window such as ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing and other forms of murdering or expelling “wrong people” but most ideologies should be allowed.

I believe education is the cure for ignorance myself, but I believe I understand the basis of your espoused principle and can respect it to an extent.

I do agree. However in practice most people are not intellectuals and don’t really even care about getting informed (that is, they don’t prefer knowledge to ignorance). Here I’m not talking about anything ethnically, politically or religiously divisive. Instead I’m just talking about something as neutral as.....Tokyo. Many people haven’t heard of Tokyo and doesn’t bother to be informed when we talk to them about it since they aren’t Japanese and Tokyo is not relevant to their lives.

If we can’t even educate people about Tokyo how can we talk about topics such as vaccines, climate change and Israel?

[The Lone Alliance]

Ah! You've hit the nail on the head. What if many of the major mediums by which peaceful dialogue can occur are being slowly altered to encourage a specific type of ideology and way of thinking? In that case, it might lead to the frustration on the part of the members of the ideology being repressed and, in lieu of peaceful dialogue, cause them to carry out other types of actions which might manifest itself as tangible impact. You've been a very intelligent partner thus far so I have some degree of faith in your understanding of this dynamic.

Is this kind of a: "Islamophobia convinces Muslims that the Radicals are right and that people are out to get them."?
Cause yes "Hostility towards a group convinces the group that the radicals of the group are right and that others are out to get them".

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ah! You've hit the nail on the head. What if many of the major mediums by which peaceful dialogue can occur are being slowly altered to encourage a specific type of ideology and way of thinking? In that case, it might lead to the frustration on the part of the members of the ideology being repressed and, in lieu of peaceful dialogue, cause them to carry out other types of actions which might manifest itself as tangible impact. You've been a very intelligent partner thus far so I have some degree of faith in your understanding of this dynamic.

"Islamophobia convinces Muslims that the Radicals are right and that people are out to get them."
"Hostility towards a group convinces the group that the radicals of the group are right and that others are out to get them".

Extremism begets more extremism which extremists benefit from.

[Fedel]

I believe education is the cure for ignorance myself, but I believe I understand the basis of your espoused principle and can respect it to an extent.

I do agree. However in practice most people are not intellectuals and don’t really even care about getting informed (that is, they don’t prefer knowledge to ignorance). Here I’m not talking about anything ethnically, politically or religiously divisive. Instead I’m just talking about something as neutral as.....Tokyo. Many people haven’t heard of Tokyo and doesn’t bother to be informed when we talk to them about it since they aren’t Japanese and Tokyo is not relevant to their lives.

All it takes is a single intellectual to be capable of creating the valid counter position and then others to spread it around. Competency wins out in free societies ( Note: Liberal use of the word "free" ). For non free societies or non free societies transitioning to free societies, I must admit to being not quite as confident.

Tbh, I don't view structures which impose force to compel obedience from their people as morale entities which is pretty much all governments but even I'm aware that the dismantling of these structures would cause much more harm than good ( probably ). Still, I remain sympathetic to people who advocate for their removal.

[Fedel]

"Islamophobia convinces Muslims that the Radicals are right and that people are out to get them."
"Hostility towards a group convinces the group that the radicals of the group are right and that others are out to get them".

Extremism begets more extremism which extremists benefit from.

^

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I do agree. However in practice most people are not intellectuals and don’t really even care about getting informed (that is, they don’t prefer knowledge to ignorance). Here I’m not talking about anything ethnically, politically or religiously divisive. Instead I’m just talking about something as neutral as.....Tokyo. Many people haven’t heard of Tokyo and doesn’t bother to be informed when we talk to them about it since they aren’t Japanese and Tokyo is not relevant to their lives.

All it takes is a single intellectual to be capable of creating the valid counter position and then others to spread it around. Competency wins out in free societies ( Note: Liberal use of the word "free" ). For non free societies or non free societies transitioning to free societies, I must admit to being not quite as confident.

Tbh, I don't view structures which impose force to compel obedience from their people as morale entities which is pretty much all governments but even I'm aware that the dismantling of these structures would cause much more harm than good ( probably ). Still, I remain sympathetic to people who advocate for their removal.

Do you have any example of that working in practice? Like is there a way to make sure that most folks in a society outside East Asia & Southeast Asia can find Japan on a map? If we can at least fix the problem of locating Japan (essential to understanding of WWII) we can then talk about more controversial topics such as evolution.

[Fedel]

All it takes is a single intellectual to be capable of creating the valid counter position and then others to spread it around. Competency wins out in free societies ( Note: Liberal use of the word "free" ). For non free societies or non free societies transitioning to free societies, I must admit to being not quite as confident.

Tbh, I don't view structures which impose force to compel obedience from their people as morale entities which is pretty much all governments but even I'm aware that the dismantling of these structures would cause much more harm than good ( probably ). Still, I remain sympathetic to people who advocate for their removal.

Do you have any example of that working in practice? Like is there a way to make sure that most folks in a society outside East Asia & Southeast Asia can find Japan on a map?

Improved education that is secular both ideologically and in terms of religion. That's about it.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Do you have any example of that working in practice? Like is there a way to make sure that most folks in a society outside East Asia & Southeast Asia can find Japan on a map?

Improved education that is secular both ideologically and in terms of religion. That's about it.

Ok. Can we make sure that students understand evolution?

[Fedel]

Improved education that is secular both ideologically and in terms of religion. That's about it.

Ok. Can we make sure that students understand evolution?

I don't mean excluding things which go against one religion or another. I mean not favoring one over another intentionally. If data favors an understanding that just so happens to undermine one religion or ideology more than the other, I would not view that as discriminatory or something to be discouraged.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ok. Can we make sure that students understand evolution?

I don't mean excluding things which go against one religion or another. I mean not favoring one over another intentionally. If data favors an understanding that just so happens to undermine one religion or ideology more than the other, I would not view that as discriminatory or something to be discouraged.

Fair enough. This problem is really not that serious any more though.

There are definitely dangerous facts though especially since it is America, not Iceland or Japan. What are we going to do about them?