French government denounces American Woke Left

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

They hate us cause they ain't us.
Ironic, since they helped us out in the American Revolution and we...well, blew them off then, but we helped them out in WWII.

OK, in all seriousness, I am mentally high-fiving the French government right now...this is an unexpected development.

To be fair, it’s not completely undeserved. Many American tourists visiting Europe have managed to sway opinions to the negative throughout the years with their behavior. Not all, but those who have, have been loud and obnoxious. US Government policies haven’t helped either. Not just in France, though.

[Nilokeras]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

Considering the stories my colleagues have told me about French academia, it's also entirely unsurprising that they're up in arms about even the slightest most uncontroversial reforms.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

Considering the stories my colleagues have told me about French academia, it's also entirely unsurprising that they're up in arms about even the slightest most uncontroversial reforms.

National sport. *shrug*

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

They hate us cause they ain't us.
Ironic, since they helped us out in the American Revolution and we...well, blew them off then, but we helped them out in WWII.

OK, in all seriousness, I am mentally high-fiving the French government right now...this is an unexpected development.

To be fair, it’s not completely undeserved. Many American tourists visiting Europe have managed to sway opinions to the negative throughout the years with their behavior. Not all, but those who have, have been loud and obnoxious. US Government policies haven’t helped either. Not just in France, though.

The US federal government is kinda sus tho.

[Ostroeuropa]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

Considering the stories my colleagues have told me about French academia, it's also entirely unsurprising that they're up in arms about even the slightest most uncontroversial reforms.

That's a pretty bolshevik understanding of what uncontroversial means. You can make anything uncontroversial if you just purge opposition.

[Sundiata]

Nonsense.

You just described your political beliefs in one word. Thanks!

That was a good one.

[Nilokeras]

That's a pretty bolshevik understanding of what uncontroversial means.

Ah yes, that famous moment in Russian history when Lenin stood up on a makeshift podium and roared, to the approval of a hundred thousand armed workers, 'maybe we shouldn't use blackface'

You can make anything uncontroversial if you just purge opposition.

Oh honey you really think that you can just get rid of tenured academics, don't you?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

An ideological clique is not an intellectual movement. They ceased to be intellectuals when they leaned hard into driving out opposition and criticism from their institutions.

It’s their clique. *shrug*

This may be some comeuppance for the Trump years and what looney tunes it generated. Just a thought. That being said, Trump isn’t president anymore so the comeuppance comes late. Can’t say.

It’s France. They’ll do as they see fit.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a pretty bolshevik understanding of what uncontroversial means.

Ah yes, that famous moment in Russian history when Lenin stood up on a makeshift podium and roared, to the approval of a hundred thousand armed workers, 'maybe we shouldn't use blackface'

You can make anything uncontroversial if you just purge opposition.

Oh honey you really think that you can just get rid of tenured academics, don't you?

1. More so refering to the habit of soviets passing things "Unanimously" because their government was a certain always sunny in Philadelphia character.

2. If you simply declare that opposing your cult is sexism and racism, that is a form of "cause" that allows them to terminate tenured academics. Moreover, there's general media harassment and demonization, actively creating a hostile work environment (Including through threats of violence), and there are the tactics covered here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Treatment

[Senkaku]

France isn’t exactly fond of the US. So that they have academics denouncing the US over conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism isn’t surprising to me in the least.

An ideological clique is not an intellectual movement.

let me guess, if you like it it's an "intellectual movement," and if not it's an "ideological clique"? how would one even tell those two things apart without purely personal ideological judgement?

They ceased to be intellectuals when they leaned hard into driving out opposition and criticism from their institutions.

Even if that were the case, why would it necessarily exclude them from being described as intellectuals

[Nilokeras]

Considering the stories my colleagues have told me about French academia, it's also entirely unsurprising that they're up in arms about even the slightest most uncontroversial reforms.

National sport. *shrug*

"Hwhat do you mean I have to treat my female étudiant diplomé like zey are my colleagues et not my secrétaire et maitresse? Zis American impérialisme culturel must not stand!!"

[Ostroeuropa]

An ideological clique is not an intellectual movement. They ceased to be intellectuals when they leaned hard into driving out opposition and criticism from their institutions.

It’s their clique. *shrug*

This may be some comeuppance for the Trump years and what looney tunes it generated. Just a thought. That being said, Trump isn’t president anymore so the comeuppance comes late. Can’t say.

It’s France. They’ll do as they see fit.

My point is that it's not anti-intellectualism to oppose progressive "academics" at this point.

It's also not just France, but a common shift in multiple European nations by this point.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

National sport. *shrug*

"Hwhat do you mean I have to treat my female étudiant diplomé like zey are my colleagues et not my secrétaire et maitresse? Zis American impérialisme culturel must not stand!!"

Honestly speaking, they do it to their own colleagues. That they do it to Americans isn’t surprising. Like I said, you aren’t exactly their favorite country.

[Ostroeuropa]

An ideological clique is not an intellectual movement.

let me guess, if you like it it's an "intellectual movement," and if not it's an "ideological clique"? how would one even tell those two things apart without purely personal ideological judgement?

They ceased to be intellectuals when they leaned hard into driving out opposition and criticism from their institutions.

Even if that were the case, why would it necessarily exclude them from being described as intellectuals

1. There's plenty of movements I don't like that i'd nonetheless consider having intellectuals, so no.

2. They cease to excercise intellect when not engaged in reason and rational discussion with opposing views.

[Nilokeras]

1. More so refering to the habit of soviets passing things "Unanimously" because their government was a certain always sunny in Philadelphia character.

What are you talking about nothing was even voted on here my dude

2. If you simply declare that opposing your cult is sexism and racism, that is a form of "cause" that allows them to terminate tenured academics.

That is not cause to terminate. You can full on just sexually assault one of your graduate students and that's not cause enough to terminate in a lot of cases. Professorial employment contracts are the cushiest and most secure in the entire world.

[Senkaku]

let me guess, if you like it it's an "intellectual movement," and if not it's an "ideological clique"? how would one even tell those two things apart without purely personal ideological judgement?


Even if that were the case, why would it necessarily exclude them from being described as intellectuals

1. There's plenty of movements I don't like that i'd nonetheless consider having intellectuals, so no.

2. They cease to excercise intellect when not engaged in reason and rational discussion with opposing views.

Having intellectuals isn't the same as being an intellectual movement, don't try to move the goalposts with such weasel-words. If you're passionately ideologically opposed to a group, of course you'll say they're "not engaged in reason and rational discussion," because you view their entire ideology as being so-- that is to say, any ideologue is likely to say it about any opposing ideologue, so it seems suspect to simply accept such a judgement at face value. You'll call it an ideological clique, someone else will call it an intellectual movement, and no useful knowledge about the actual nature of the group is revealed or produced, just so much sophistry and overheated ranting.

[Ostroeuropa]

1. More so refering to the habit of soviets passing things "Unanimously" because their government was a certain always sunny in Philadelphia character.

What are you talking about nothing was even voted on here my dude

2. If you simply declare that opposing your cult is sexism and racism, that is a form of "cause" that allows them to terminate tenured academics.

That is not cause to terminate. You can full on just sexually assault one of your graduate students and that's not cause enough to terminate in a lot of cases. Professorial employment contracts are the cushiest and most secure in the entire world.

I'm pointing out that you can make anything "Uncontroversial" through normalizing repercussions for disagreeing with the collective and terrorizing people.

You're wrong. It is cause to terminate and has been used for decades by this point alongside the other tactics mentioned in that metastudy I linked you to create an academic echo chamber purged of dissent.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... st/385280/

[Ostroeuropa]

1. There's plenty of movements I don't like that i'd nonetheless consider having intellectuals, so no.

2. They cease to excercise intellect when not engaged in reason and rational discussion with opposing views.

Having intellectuals isn't the same as being an intellectual movement, don't try to move the goalposts with such weasel-words. If you're passionately ideologically opposed to a group, of course you'll say they're "not engaged in reason and rational discussion," because you view their entire ideology as being so-- that is to say, any ideologue is likely to say it about any opposing ideologue, so it seems suspect to simply accept such a judgement at face value. You'll call it an ideological clique, someone else will call it an intellectual movement, and no useful knowledge about the actual nature of the group is revealed or produced, just so much sophistry and overheated ranting.

*shrug*

If someone calls you a horse you punch them in the nose.
If another person calls you a horse you call them a jerk.
If everyone you meet calls you a horse, well, maybe buy a saddle.

People from *all over the political spectrum with a massive range of diverse views on practically every topic* have basically the same criticisms of the woke types. Meanwhile nobody agrees with their criticisms of other movements, even though they have their own criticisms of other movements.

I think that's telling.

this is not, as your response would imply, two spidermen yelling at eachother the meme.

It's Dr Octopus claiming he's spiderman, spiderman claiming he's spiderman, and the entire extended cast going "Dr Octopus, why are you even doing this? We can see you are not spiderman".

I accept that they can continue to deny reality until the cows come home and can insist that we're the anti-intellectuals and so on and so on. That does not mean that there's no productive conversation to be had.
It just means there's no productive conversation to be had *with them*, but this is not a tale of two sides here. There's plenty of other perspectives to engage with.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Having intellectuals isn't the same as being an intellectual movement, don't try to move the goalposts with such weasel-words. If you're passionately ideologically opposed to a group, of course you'll say they're "not engaged in reason and rational discussion," because you view their entire ideology as being so-- that is to say, any ideologue is likely to say it about any opposing ideologue, so it seems suspect to simply accept such a judgement at face value. You'll call it an ideological clique, someone else will call it an intellectual movement, and no useful knowledge about the actual nature of the group is revealed or produced, just so much sophistry and overheated ranting.

*shrug*

If someone calls you a horse you punch them in the nose.
If another person calls you a horse you call them a jerk.
If everyone you meet calls you a horse, well, maybe buy a saddle.

People from *all over the political spectrum with a massive range of diverse views on practically every topic* have basically the same criticisms of the woke types. Meanwhile nobody agrees with their criticisms of other movements, even though they have their own criticisms of other movements.

I think that's telling.

This is then their way to treat American wokeness. And of course there will be differences in opinions and treatment because well, different people.

Maybe I’m seeing as a non-issue because I’ve lived both in Europe and the US and that’s my perspective.

[Outer Bratorke]

On principal, I refuse to ever side with France on any issue. It will be a cold day in hell when I ever listen to a bunch of goddamn frogs.

[Greater Cesnica]

On principal, I refuse to ever side with France on any issue. It will be a cold day in hell when I ever listen to a bunch of goddamn frogs.

Your sig politiscales result doesn't work.

[Ostroeuropa]

*shrug*

If someone calls you a horse you punch them in the nose.
If another person calls you a horse you call them a jerk.
If everyone you meet calls you a horse, well, maybe buy a saddle.

People from *all over the political spectrum with a massive range of diverse views on practically every topic* have basically the same criticisms of the woke types. Meanwhile nobody agrees with their criticisms of other movements, even though they have their own criticisms of other movements.

I think that's telling.

This is then their way to treat American wokeness. And of course there will be differences in opinions and treatment because well, different people.

Maybe I’m seeing as a non-issue because I’ve lived both in Europe and the US and that’s my perspective.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

This is then their way to treat American wokeness. And of course there will be differences in opinions and treatment because well, different people.

Maybe I’m seeing as a non-issue because I’ve lived both in Europe and the US and that’s my perspective.

Can you elaborate on this?

On what specifically?

[Ostroeuropa]

Can you elaborate on this?

On what specifically?

"This is then their way to treat American wokeness.".

How do you think people should respond to this problem?

[Nilokeras]

I'm pointing out that you can make anything "Uncontroversial" through normalizing repercussions for disagreeing with the collective and terrorizing people.

Ah yes the famous anti blackface death squads that run around tormenting and murdering innocent minstrelsy actors

You're wrong. It is cause to terminate and has been used for decades by this point alongside the other tactics mentioned in that metastudy I linked you to create an academic echo chamber purged of dissent.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... st/385280/

Lets pull up a modern source and see how he's doing, hmm?

On December 12, 2014, McAdams was placed on indefinite academic leave from Marquette University and was suspended from all teaching and faculty duties, banned from campus but retaining pay and benefits. This indefinite suspension came about after McAdams publicly called out a graduate student and instructor by name, in a post on his private blog. He said the instructor had refused to allow a student in an ethics class to talk about gay marriage in class.[12] A letter from Marquette University indicated that the firing was the result of his thrice violating student privacy and deliberately publishing students' names and information to target them for harassment, and because he had done so in the third instance, despite previously acknowledging that posting student names was a matter of concern.[13][14]

On March 24, 2016, Marquette released an announcement detailing the decision of University President Michael Lovell, formally implementing the unanimous recommendation contained in a 123-page report composed by the Faculty Hearing Committee after a 4-day investigation. McAdams' suspension was extended until January 2017 without pay but with benefits, and any return was conditioned on his writing a full letter of apology by April 4, 2016. McAdams told local news media that the requirement to write an apology was "a deal killer. No, I`m not going to do that."[15][16][17] The announcement triggered a barrage of hateful and threatening messages and emails directed at the graduate student and at Marquette University officials.[18][19] The graduate student later transferred to another university, saying she feared for her safety.[20]

On April 4, 2016, McAdams issued a 4-page letter[21] to President Lovell, formally rejecting his demands, and calling them "compelled speech."

McAdams has filed a lawsuit against Marquette, alleging that the suspension and pending dismissal amount to a breach of contract.[22] In response the university released the 123-page Faculty Hearing Committee report, which alleges a pattern of bullying and reckless behavior by McAdams, including at least three previous attempts to intimidate fellow faculty members by threatening to publish their names to his blog.

In July 2018, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ordered the university to reinstate him

Let's review: professor was placed on fully paid leave/suspended (note: not fired!) after a dispute where he published the name of an undergraduate student on his blog, apparently part of a pattern of harassing or intimidating behaviour against students and colleagues. After investigation the university offers to reinstate him on condition of an apology, which he refuses. He then launches a lawsuit against the university, which he wins, and is reinstated, because his contract is so ironclad that nothing of the above was sufficient to actually fire him, which the university never actually tried to do, probably because it knew it would lose in court.

And this is supposed to be proof of a guy being canceled and exiled from academia on the whim of a university?