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Time to End Tax Exemption for Religions?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

It it time to end religious tax exemptions?

Yes, for all religions
50
36%
Yes, only for violating church-state separation
27
20%
No
60
44%
 
Total votes : 137

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Postauthoritarian America
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Time to End Tax Exemption for Religions?

Postby Postauthoritarian America » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:08 pm

From the state that brought you racist pagan churches, a new outbreak of "Christian nationalism:"

Pastor Chik Chikeles stood in front of the altar last month wearing a black T-shirt with the words "Democratic Platform 1. Murder Unborn Children 2. Molest the Survivors. Proverbs 24:11."

"Democrat platform is??" Chikeles asked the faithful in the pews of Calvary Chapel of St. Paul. Then he proclaimed the message on his shirt, citing the Proverbs verse that obligates believers to rescue those being led away to death or destruction.

So began a Bible lesson accompanied by rhetoric reflecting growing stridency among a segment of Christians convinced that the nation's Christian heritage is under siege and must be restored, that the government has overreached its authority, even that the presidential election was stolen.


Needless to say this flies in the face of church-state separation, the supposed rationale for religious tax exemptions. Is it time to end them?

The toothless threat of litigation to remove tax exemption on a case-by-case basis only for those religious organizations violating separation has been undone by special legislation and court decisions, but it might yet be revived. To my mind that's not enough. Given the political environment there's no guarantee selective removal wouldn't be used merely to harass whatever group is on the outs for the moment.

It could be objected that removing tax exemptions would interfere with religious charity work. That's not what's being advocated. Legitimate charity work, religious or not, would still qualify for exemption. Buildings, grounds, campsites, pipe organs, revival meetings and other activity -- including partisan political advocacy -- unconnected with charity would not.

The only solution imo is to pull tax exemption from all religious organizations and activities insofar as those are unconnected with bona fide charitable activity. Freedom of speech or religion shouldn't be perverted to defend partisan advocacy that wouldn't qualify for tax exemption if it were carried on outside the walls of some church.

Over to you NSG.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:10 pm

As I said last time this comes up, this is a move that would only benefit large religious organizations (whether they are things like the Catholic Church or Jim's Megachurch) and give them more clout than they already have.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:10 pm

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:10 pm

Religious organizations should not be taxed.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:11 pm

Senkaku wrote:

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:11 pm

Punished UMN wrote:As I said last time this comes up, this is a move that would only benefit large religious organizations (whether they are things like the Catholic Church or Jim's Megachurch) and give them more clout than they already have.

hm
would you be onboard with a scaling progressive tax, then, based not on the size of the religion, but on the size of the individual congregation?
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:As I said last time this comes up, this is a move that would only benefit large religious organizations (whether they are things like the Catholic Church or Jim's Megachurch) and give them more clout than they already have.

hm
would you be onboard with a scaling progressive tax, then, based not on the size of the religion, but on the size of the individual congregation?

Actually yes, provided that there were full exemptions below a certain level of net-income.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:13 pm

Sundiata wrote:Religious organizations should not be taxed.

Was anyone really wondering what the Catholic Church thought about having to pay taxes lol
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:14 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Kowani wrote:hm
would you be onboard with a scaling progressive tax, then, based not on the size of the religion, but on the size of the individual congregation?

Actually yes, provided that there were full exemptions below a certain level of net-income.

yeah, that seems fair
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:15 pm

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Note that my support of "abolition of church" here refers to large scale religious institutions rather than me attacking religious practices or their followers.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:15 pm

Tbh we need to just start enforcing the laws we have regarding 501(c)3 organizations and lobbying/meddling in politics.

I do mean that both generally and especially with regard to churches.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:17 pm

Kowani wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Actually yes, provided that there were full exemptions below a certain level of net-income.

yeah, that seems fair

Yeah. I agree that a lot of congregations should be taxed, my issue is just with repealing the exemption writ-large. Financially it probably wouldn't make much difference for Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, or that guy who was edited into a pretty lit metal track, but it would mean the difference between a lot of people (especially in rural areas where larger congregations aren't an option) being able to practice their religion at all or not.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
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Disgraces
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:20 pm

No and I'm not even religious
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:21 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Kowani wrote:yeah, that seems fair

Yeah. I agree that a lot of congregations should be taxed, my issue is just with repealing the exemption writ-large. Financially it probably wouldn't make much difference for Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, or that guy who was edited into a pretty lit metal track, but it would mean the difference between a lot of people (especially in rural areas where larger congregations aren't an option) being able to practice their religion at all or not.

Ironically, if you struck “religious” from 501(c)3 tax exempt organizations, the vast majority would likely fall basically immediately into the bucket of 501(c)7 tax exempt social clubs.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:26 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Kowani wrote:yeah, that seems fair

Yeah. I agree that a lot of congregations should be taxed, my issue is just with repealing the exemption writ-large. Financially it probably wouldn't make much difference for Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, or that guy who was edited into a pretty lit metal track, but it would mean the difference between a lot of people (especially in rural areas where larger congregations aren't an option) being able to practice their religion at all or not.

that is a fair worry, yeah
and for a lot of immigrant and african-american communities, small churches provide a fundamental social role in helping a lot of people who need it in ways they wouldn't be able to if they were taxed
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:29 pm

Kowani wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Yeah. I agree that a lot of congregations should be taxed, my issue is just with repealing the exemption writ-large. Financially it probably wouldn't make much difference for Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, or that guy who was edited into a pretty lit metal track, but it would mean the difference between a lot of people (especially in rural areas where larger congregations aren't an option) being able to practice their religion at all or not.

that is a fair worry, yeah
and for a lot of immigrant and african-american communities, small churches provide a fundamental social role in helping a lot of people who need it in ways they wouldn't be able to if they were taxed

Yeah, exactly. I hate to sound like a centrist, but there's a middle ground that a lot of people seem weirded out about pursuing.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:35 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Kowani wrote:that is a fair worry, yeah
and for a lot of immigrant and african-american communities, small churches provide a fundamental social role in helping a lot of people who need it in ways they wouldn't be able to if they were taxed

Yeah, exactly. I hate to sound like a centrist, but there's a middle ground that a lot of people seem weirded out about pursuing.

I mean, having been on the very strong secularist side for a while before a considerable mellowing out
the role of churches as a social glue or a necessity isn't something you think about
and the objection of "well that'll leave people unable to practice their religion" tends to evoke a response of "good"
it's not the objective, but it is a "side benefit", so to speak
the way religion is conceptualized is fundamentally distinct
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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:42 pm

Sundiata wrote:Religious organizations should not be taxed.


The sky is blue, water is wet. More at 11.

Seriously though, religious organizations that insist on being involved in politics and trying to influence politics should be taxed. If they show such blatant disregard for separation of church and state, they cannot use the idea as a shield against taxation.
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Intaglio
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Postby Intaglio » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:44 pm

I'm in favor only if they violate the church-state clauses; mising religion and politics in dangerous. Any one else, no, I think they should remain exempt. For one thing, many churches simply wouldn't have the money to afford theri taxes and it might interfere with theri other services if they had to pay them.
Last edited by Intaglio on Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:50 pm

I can't imagine that taxing this church would have discouraged this pastor from talking shit about the Democrats.
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:56 pm

I support tax exemptions for charitable organizations, but religions should not be exempt.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:00 pm

I think it's fair for them to be tax exempt if they keep out of politics, sort of a give-and-take of keeping people's faith out of politics. If they insist on getting involved in politics though, then I see no reason not to tax them.

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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:42 pm

Kowani wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Yeah. I agree that a lot of congregations should be taxed, my issue is just with repealing the exemption writ-large. Financially it probably wouldn't make much difference for Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, or that guy who was edited into a pretty lit metal track, but it would mean the difference between a lot of people (especially in rural areas where larger congregations aren't an option) being able to practice their religion at all or not.

that is a fair worry, yeah
and for a lot of immigrant and african-american communities, small churches provide a fundamental social role in helping a lot of people who need it in ways they wouldn't be able to if they were taxed


Fine. Let them set up charitable subsidiaries to help their parishioners, or anyone else they want to help. They can have tax exemptions for that. Not for partisan political organizing or advocacy.

Ifreann wrote:I can't imagine that taxing this church would have discouraged this pastor from talking shit about the Democrats.


No; but it would force him and his parishioners to pay taxes for the privilege, as they should.
Last edited by Postauthoritarian America on Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The violence of American law enforcement degrades the lives of countless people, especially poor Black people, through its peculiar appetite for their death." | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "Today's Republican Party is America's and the world's largest white supremacist organization." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly |"Republicans...have transformed...to a fascist party engaged in a takeover of the United States of America."

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:31 pm

Christian Nationalism is probably one of the weirdest contradictions to ever exist. I mean those two things are diametrically opposed, as is Islamic nationalism. Jewish nationalism makes more sense since Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion, but Christian and Islamic nationalism are wack both from the perspective of the religions themselves and from me, a secular socialist. Alot of "Christian nationalism" tbh is just people missing "The Good Old DaysTM."

Anyways, I think religious organizations ought to be taxed unless over 90% of the money they make goes to charities who donate all that money to the poor. The only tax exemption they would get in my book would be for charity.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:33 pm

Ifreann wrote:I can't imagine that taxing this church would have discouraged this pastor from talking shit about the Democrats.


He's a modern American conservative. He's probably scared of taxes like the people of Harrison Township are.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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