Freedom of speech // Is the West falling behind?

[Nilokeras]

Have you actually talked to a real leftist? They get banned from platforms like Twitter all the time for much more spurious reasons.

That's again what I mean.

They get banned because their speech threatens the status quo. The definition of what is accepted speech is speech that doesn't actually change anything.

There's a reason why some kinds of hate speech are more accepted than other, that's because if the first form of hate speech has no possibility of becoming reality the powers that be allow it. Or they allow it because they believe the ones spreading the hate speech have no agency and never will thus they will never be a threat to the powers that be.

Leftism is a threat to the status quo so it gets silenced.
Hard Rightism is a threat to the status quo so it gets silenced.
People filled with hate but too hopped up on issues to ever unite with anyone? Not a threat.

The dynamic isn't quite that equal. A lot of hay has been made about the relative inattention of law enforcement and security agencies' towards rightist organizing and views, for example. 'Censorship' of the right and the scourge of 'political correctness' is a favorite topic of editorials in the newspapers of record and on national television. Republican congressmen dragged tech CEOs in front of committees to demand an explanation for why their posts weren't getting as much engagement as they wanted. The left, as evidenced by that single article on the subject, has much fewer avenues of recourse and can have significantly higher stakes to its 'silencing'.

[Farnhamia]

Trump got silenced by privately owned media after staging a coup and is still walking around as a free man. I don't think "not enough freedom" is a problem in the only country where you can fail in a coup attempt and not get immediately arrested.

The attack was planned a few days before January 6th. The statement you made is a sheep's statement, a statement reflecting the mind of someone who believes everything the media tells them and has critical-level Trump Derangement.
Use your mind.

*** 1 day ban for flaming ***

[Miku the Based]

As long as we the government delegate censorship and infingement of rights to the private corporations and give them near and absolute monopoly with bailouts and corporate welfare then freedom of speech is still ensured and the peoples rights are totally not being infringed, the west wins again. /s

[Karlopetrus]

I should be resting since I need to work tomorrow. But this thread intrigues me. Very interesting discussion.

Indeed we need to understand what is met by the West "falling behind." Are we falling behind the East?

Since people brought up hate speech and religion, here's my response. The problem with hate speech laws is that it's the government in power that decides what is defined as hate speech. Then it's the courts, which are also often political, at least here in the USA, who get to interpret and pass sentence. I say political because so many judges are elected, which means they are politicians. I have zero confidence in the US system to be fair in defining hate speech. Inevitably this would allow hate speech by favored groups and throw other people in jail for speech that is not even hateful.

For example, I hear people in the USA complaining about "islamophobia" but we never hear about "cristophobia." Why is that? Since 2000, which religion is followed by the most terrorists who actually killed people? I think it's not Christianity. So why are some people so worried about Christians?

I can't comment on the poster of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the rainbow without seeing it. The rainbow as someone pointed out is a biblical symbol and a rather beautiful one. Also, the rainbow flag, which is now referred to as the gay flag, has a long history, most of which has nothing to do with the gay rights movement.

I believe we should love GLBTQ people as human beings and that is what the Church teaches. However, we will always be against sex outside marriage, no matter who that offends, and we will never allow gay marriage. We will never have women priests. But people are free to join another church or another religion, or to be non-religious. That is a basic human right. But we stand by our right to believe in our own faith and to teach it as well. I happen to believe that if there is complete freedom of religion everywhere, that will lead an ever growing number of people to become Christians. Even if it does not, I still believe in freedom of religion, which implies freedom of speech.

I think the freedom of speech of my religion is threatened in many countries. There are some very hateful and aggressive people who would like to tear down the Catholic Church here in the USA. But this is not China, where the CCP can push Catholics around and get away with it. This is not Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Iran, where Christians are persecuted by the government and can even get the death penalty in some cases for something they say or write. This is not even the Zionist state, where some in government call us "vampires," where they have anti-missionary laws, and where some people spit on us and throw stones at our churches. There are also many so-called Christian sites, which contain vicious propaganda against the Catholic Church.

Not that I'm worried. If you look at the video I posted a link to earlier, about the history of the Church, you will learn that many have tried over the centuries to destroy us, and all have failed. Next door in Mexico, in the early 20th century, President Calles wanted to shut down the Catholic Church. That did not go well. It would not go well here either. If you like historical films, you may want to watch For Greater Glory which is about the Cristeros war.

My point is, please don't go after Christians or any other religious groups by means of hate-speech laws. Go after people who actually commit violent crimes, even if you agree with them politically, or they otherwise serve your political agenda.

Now that I think about it, perhaps we are falling behind where we were a few years ago. At least politicians in both parties now make their double standards quite obvious. We know they are not fair and we can't take what they say at face value. Better the wolf you see than the wolf in sheep's clothing.

P.S. I almost forgot. It's mandatory when I mention the Cristeros.

¡Viva Cristo Rey!
¡Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!

[The Huskar Social Union]

Eastern Europe and Russia (lol) are not more free than Western Europe.

[Albrenia]

I believe I've made clear in the past that I think Hate Speech laws are dumb, with the notable exception of anything which threatens harm on others.

Having said that, I'm also not particularly bothered by social media companies choosing to ban people who break Terms of Service. Right wingers keep telling us about the invisible hand of the market, so surely it would solve any real problem, right?

Also social media is a pile of trash in general. Forums like this are about as far as I'll go.

[Karlopetrus]

I believe I've made clear in the past that I think Hate Speech laws are dumb, with the notable exception of anything which threatens harm on others.

Having said that, I'm also not particularly bothered by social media companies choosing to ban people who break Terms of Service. Right wingers keep telling us about the invisible hand of the market, so surely it would solve any real problem, right?

Also social media is a pile of trash in general. Forums like this are about as far as I'll go.

It can be a pile of trash and often is. I've cancelled my FB account twice over the years. But recently I started again and I'm making it more private and blocking anyone who bothers me. I'm very careful about security. As much as I despise the people in charge, It's very useful to keep in touch with many people in a short time.

[Joohan]

Honestly, I think we should just break up companies before they can get to the point of being able to bend national or international politics just by flexing their capital influence. I think issues of censorship and corporate disinformation would be greatly mitigated if we didn't allow so much power to be concentrated into the hands of an unaccountable few.

[Engadine Mcdonalds 1997]

rEEEEE YOURE TAKING AWAY MY RIGHT TO SAY THE N-WORD!!!!111!!!!!11! REEEEEEEE

In all seriousness, freedom of speech isn't about being able to say whatever the fuck you want, it's mostly about the ability to criticise the State and Government. This does NOT extend to private corporations banning people for, quite frankly, the most vile views on a given topic that deserve to be buried with modern history's most notorious "conservatives", buried with people like George Wallace, Strom Thurmond, Woodrow Wilson, Winston Churchill, Franz von Pauper and Robert Menzies. So please, learn about what "Freedom of Speech" is before you spout of nonsense because Der Fuhrer was kicked off the internet.

*** Warned for trolling ***

I have to tell you, without the top line in your post I might have agreed with you, but you just decided to insult your opponents.

Damn, this is LICHERALLLY BRAVE FAHREHEIT 1984, I'M GETTING CENSORED BY BIG FIREMEN TAKING AWAY MY RIGHTS... LITERRALY. Or something, I think I did it right... probably... maybe...

[Engadine Mcdonalds 1997]

Honestly, I think we should just break up companies before they can get to the point of being able to bend national or international politics just by flexing their capital influence. I think issues of censorship and corporate disinformation would be greatly mitigated if we didn't allow so much power to be concentrated into the hands of an unaccountable few.

On the one hand I completely agree with you, companies should never be able to bend nations to their will for their own selfish wants, especially those who use their wealth to influence the policies of the current government.

But on the other hand, it feels so good seeing all of these "free market conservatives" getting swacked by the "free" market, so I'm a little torn on how to feel

[Joohan]

Honestly, I think we should just break up companies before they can get to the point of being able to bend national or international politics just by flexing their capital influence. I think issues of censorship and corporate disinformation would be greatly mitigated if we didn't allow so much power to be concentrated into the hands of an unaccountable few.

On the one hand I completely agree with you, companies should never be able to bend nations to their will for their own selfish wants, especially those who use their wealth to influence the policies of the current government.

But on the other hand, it feels so good seeing all of these "free market conservatives" getting swacked by the "free" market, so I'm a little torn on how to feel

It is nice to see free market fundamentalists get squashed by billionaires they worship.

[Risottia]

I'm already bored of the emerging mantra from the right about 'freedom of speech' just because their totem had his Twitter rights removed, we're very sorry your far right racist speech is being oppressed.

I fail to be sorry. It is being oppressed far too little.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm already bored of the emerging mantra from the right about 'freedom of speech' just because their totem had his Twitter rights removed, we're very sorry your far right racist speech is being oppressed.

I fail to be sorry. It is being oppressed far too little.

The "sorry" part was sarcastic.

---

Again, to think that Russia and Poland are free speech heroes for doing this is a laughable position. They're practically dictatorships and they wanted the U.S. to become one by overturning a democratic election, and that's especially true with Poland.

[Arthenius]

The problem is the hypocritical double standard. A certain group of people, usually "progressives" feel that Trump or anybody else they disagree with can be banned from platforms they run, and that lumping potentially more people than necessary as "domestic terrorists" is justified, but if it were done by the right back toward the left they would scream "traitor". It is all social and political bunkum.

Well, people don't just 'feel' Trump can be banned from platforms, it's actually a pretty standard feature of almost all social media platforms. Notice the idiot wasn't banned until he managed to whip a crowd into committing a literal terrorist attack though.

Stop whining about a just ban. He wasn't banned for saying things people disagree with, or else he'd have been banned years ago. He was banned for inciting a fucking terrorist attack.

Do you know what the Reichstag Fire was?
And I'm "whining" now? I thought the debate and discussion was meant to be more intelligent here.

[Arthenius]

As long as we the government delegate censorship and infingement of rights to the private corporations and give them near and absolute monopoly with bailouts and corporate welfare then freedom of speech is still ensured and the peoples rights are totally not being infringed, the west wins again. /s

Another problem with this that is going beyond the speech part is that I don't consider it good to begin with when only few tech and media options exist that hold 90-95% share of audience.

[Arthenius]

I should be resting since I need to work tomorrow. But this thread intrigues me. Very interesting discussion.

Indeed we need to understand what is met by the West "falling behind." Are we falling behind the East?

Since people brought up hate speech and religion, here's my response. The problem with hate speech laws is that it's the government in power that decides what is defined as hate speech. Then it's the courts, which are also often political, at least here in the USA, who get to interpret and pass sentence. I say political because so many judges are elected, which means they are politicians. I have zero confidence in the US system to be fair in defining hate speech. Inevitably this would allow hate speech by favored groups and throw other people in jail for speech that is not even hateful.

For example, I hear people in the USA complaining about "islamophobia" but we never hear about "cristophobia." Why is that? Since 2000, which religion is followed by the most terrorists who actually killed people? I think it's not Christianity. So why are some people so worried about Christians?

I can't comment on the poster of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the rainbow without seeing it. The rainbow as someone pointed out is a biblical symbol and a rather beautiful one. Also, the rainbow flag, which is now referred to as the gay flag, has a long history, most of which has nothing to do with the gay rights movement.

I believe we should love GLBTQ people as human beings and that is what the Church teaches. However, we will always be against sex outside marriage, no matter who that offends, and we will never allow gay marriage. We will never have women priests. But people are free to join another church or another religion, or to be non-religious. That is a basic human right. But we stand by our right to believe in our own faith and to teach it as well. I happen to believe that if there is complete freedom of religion everywhere, that will lead an ever growing number of people to become Christians. Even if it does not, I still believe in freedom of religion, which implies freedom of speech.

I think the freedom of speech of my religion is threatened in many countries. There are some very hateful and aggressive people who would like to tear down the Catholic Church here in the USA. But this is not China, where the CCP can push Catholics around and get away with it. This is not Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Iran, where Christians are persecuted by the government and can even get the death penalty in some cases for something they say or write. This is not even the Zionist state, where some in government call us "vampires," where they have anti-missionary laws, and where some people spit on us and throw stones at our churches. There are also many so-called Christian sites, which contain vicious propaganda against the Catholic Church.

Not that I'm worried. If you look at the video I posted a link to earlier, about the history of the Church, you will learn that many have tried over the centuries to destroy us, and all have failed. Next door in Mexico, in the early 20th century, President Calles wanted to shut down the Catholic Church. That did not go well. It would not go well here either. If you like historical films, you may want to watch For Greater Glory which is about the Cristeros war.

My point is, please don't go after Christians or any other religious groups by means of hate-speech laws. Go after people who actually commit violent crimes, even if you agree with them politically, or they otherwise serve your political agenda.

Now that I think about it, perhaps we are falling behind where we were a few years ago. At least politicians in both parties now make their double standards quite obvious. We know they are not fair and we can't take what they say at face value. Better the wolf you see than the wolf in sheep's clothing.

P.S. I almost forgot. It's mandatory when I mention the Cristeros.

¡Viva Cristo Rey!
¡Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!

The "Christophobia" is a reaction to the soft-style persecution or ridicule that traditional Christians have been at the cultural butt of lately.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

PiS party sensors pro lgbt stuff all the time.

See gravlens sourse for details.

Poland, this u?

Elżbieta, Anna and Joanna – whose last names have not been released – were arrested in 2019 and charged the next year after they stuck up posters of the Virgin Mary adorned with a rainbow halo, symbolic of the popular flag used to represent the LGBT+ community.

Also sense this is the most new decision of polish politics I want to give a big ol fuck you to the PiS party for runing a smear campain against Great Orchestra of Christmas Charity.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I fail to be sorry. It is being oppressed far too little.

The "sorry" part was sarcastic.

---

Again, to think that Russia and Poland are free speech heroes for doing this is a laughable position. They're practically dictatorships and they wanted the U.S. to become one by overturning a democratic election, and that's especially true with Poland.

Oh yeah, Russia just jailed a political critic for not being murdered.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

The problem is the hypocritical double standard. A certain group of people, usually "progressives" feel that Trump or anybody else they disagree with can be banned from platforms they run, and that lumping potentially more people than necessary as "domestic terrorists" is justified, but if it were done by the right back toward the left they would scream "traitor". It is all social and political bunkum.

Well, people don't just 'feel' Trump can be banned from platforms, it's actually a pretty standard feature of almost all social media platforms. Notice the idiot wasn't banned until he managed to whip a crowd into committing a literal terrorist attack though.

Stop whining about a just ban. He wasn't banned for saying things people disagree with, or else he'd have been banned years ago. He was banned for inciting a fucking terrorist attack.

"But muh censorship!!!!111 me want trump to be able to incite terrorst attcks!!"

[Ethel mermania]

Falling behind? No. Falling? yes

[Ethel mermania]

I'm already bored of the emerging mantra from the right about 'freedom of speech' just because their totem had his Twitter rights removed, we're very sorry your far right racist speech is being oppressed.

Your right, free speech isn't important at all. Look at all those troublemakers in Hong Kong, stirring up the public, destroying order, slurring the government leaders. We need to support shutting that kind of talk down, and isolating those rabble rousers from the population. And no need to tell where the government will shipp those miscreant criminals too, it just causes unrest in the people.


Now to be fair I do agree with your point about my fellow American rightist's complete lack of understanding of the importance of free speech. That the answer isn't more restrictions on speech. (Ie repealing section 230 instead of strengthening it)

That said your living in a location that is well on its wqy to becoming a tolatarian nightmare and you still aren't supportive of free speech, is surprising.

[The Free Joy State]

Is the west falling behind Russia -- where Putin's main political opponent has been arrested on trumped-up charges (after surviving an assassination attempt), several years after band Pussy Riot was arrested for being critical of Putin-- or Poland -- where journalists face arrest for insulting politicians, preventing them from performing their job as social watchdog effectively?

What... just because a private company can stop people using hate-speech on their site. Ha. Don't make me laugh. All the people Twitter, or any other site, ban can still find another site to express their personal opinions.

Unlike with the examples above. They are what people should be getting exercised about, IMO.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Is the west falling behind Russia -- where Putin's main political opponent has been arrested on trumped-up charges (after surviving an assassination attempt) and arrested band Pussy Riot for being critical of Putin-- or Poland -- where journalists face arrest for insulting politicians?

What... just because a private company can stop people using hate-speech on their site. Ha. Don't make me laugh.

The examples above are what people should be getting exercised about, IMO.

"But big bad twitter stoping calls for terrorism is bad beacuse trump good!!"

"PiS good west bad"

[The Free Joy State]

I'm already bored of the emerging mantra from the right about 'freedom of speech' just because their totem had his Twitter rights removed, we're very sorry your far right racist speech is being oppressed.

Your right, free speech isn't important at all. Look at all those troublemakers in Hong Kong, stirring up the public, destroying order, slurring the government leaders. We need to support shutting that kind of talk down, and isolating those rabble rousers from the population. And no need to tell where the government will shipp those miscreant criminals too, it just causes unrest in the people.


Now to be fair I do agree with your point about my fellow American rightist's complete lack of understanding of the importance of free speech. That the answer isn't more restrictions on speech. (Ie repealing section 230 instead of strengthening it)

That said your living in a location that is well on its wqy to becoming a tolatarian nightmare and you still aren't supportive of free speech, is surprising.

To be fair, Twitter saying 'Go peddle your hate-speech somewhere else' to far-rightists isn't censorship. They can go to another site that welcomes them. They can start their own site and say 'Here, we love far-rightists and leftists are banned'.

And, frankly, a lot of the current free speech discussion seems to miss that point.

In Hong Kong, it was censorship, as it was the government restricting protests. As now, with the new Security Law, it's the government saying that certain topics are banned and supporting independence is forbidden -- whether for citizens or non-citizens. There are real-life repercussions (rather than just having to find a new site, of which I understand there are many on the internet).

When governments do this -- as with Russia's attempt at stamping out political opposition or Poland's restrictions on journalists -- it's a real cause for concern, and something to fight against at all costs.

[Echo Chamber Thought Police]

Your right, free speech isn't important at all. Look at all those troublemakers in Hong Kong, stirring up the public, destroying order, slurring the government leaders. We need to support shutting that kind of talk down, and isolating those rabble rousers from the population. And no need to tell where the government will shipp those miscreant criminals too, it just causes unrest in the people.


Now to be fair I do agree with your point about my fellow American rightist's complete lack of understanding of the importance of free speech. That the answer isn't more restrictions on speech. (Ie repealing section 230 instead of strengthening it)

That said your living in a location that is well on its wqy to becoming a tolatarian nightmare and you still aren't supportive of free speech, is surprising.

To be fair, Twitter saying 'Go peddle your hate-speech somewhere else' to far-rightists isn't censorship. They can go to another site that welcomes them. They can start their own site and say 'Here, we love far-rightists and leftists are banned'.

And, frankly, a lot of the current free speech discussion seems to miss that point.

In Hong Kong, it was censorship, as it was the government restricting protests. As now, with the new Security Law, it's the government saying that certain topics are banned and supporting independence is forbidden -- whether for citizens or non-citizens. There are real-life repercussions (rather than just having to find a new site, of which I understand there are many on the internet).

When governments do this -- as with Russia's attempt at stamping out political opposition or Poland's restrictions on journalists -- it's a real cause for concern, and something to fight against at all costs.

and then when they do state their opinions somewhere else that website is engineered to become inaccessible and blocked by most platforms