NATION

PASSWORD

How much religious freedom is needed?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:36 am

Belshekistan wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:So what is the distinction that you draw between two groups that are apparently harmful? Is it size? Length of establishment?

Size is not the distinction, but it is the most helpful indicator. The distinction is control. The smaller and more tightly knit the group is, the more likely it is that most or all of the group truly believes in whatever harmful ideology the group's leadership espouses, but even a large group can have widespread indoctrination to those ideas. I know from my experience talking to catholics that this is not the case with them.

I know a good few pagan groups which are very tight-knit and small, like what you describe. Very nice people. Dangerous cults?
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6992
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:37 am

The Black Forrest wrote:Enough to practice it without harassment and not harass others.

Pretty much this.
Fly me the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
PRO
- Free speech
- Weapons rights
- Democracy
- LGBTQ+ rights
- Racial equality
- Gender/sexual equality
- Voting rights
- Universal healthcare
- Workers rights
- Drug decriminalization
- Cannabis legalization
- Due process
- Rehabilitative justice
- Religious freedom
- Choice
- Environmental protections
- Secularism
ANTI
- Fascism/Nazism
- Conservatism
- Nationalism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Traditionalism
- Ethnic/racial supremacy
- Racism
- Sexism
- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- Religious extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Warmongering
- Accelerationism
- Theocracy

User avatar
Belshekistan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Belshekistan » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:37 am

Anglicora wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Because allowing proselytism runs directly counter to freedom of religion imo. It benefits proselytizing religions at the expense of atheists or non-proselytizing faiths.

Then that's a problem for non-proselytising faiths.

Belshekistan wrote:The point is that it can be addictive and destructive, especially with the more "out there" denominations such as pentecostalism or evangelism.

No that's literally not the point. The study that you are citing does not say that at all. You are lying.

I'm not saying that's the study's point, I'm saying that's my point.
ATTENTION: In-character name is the People's Federation of Northern Eurasia
The 4th Warsaw Pact
NATIONAL NEWS: Northern Eurasia has plastered an enormous hammer and sickle on the surface of the moon to spite America.
DEFCON: [5] 4 3 2 BLYAT
IC location: the Soviet Union but with all Germany, plus Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark.
Now with 100% more full control of the moon, Mars and Venus!
I sometimes use NS stats

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:37 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Anglicora wrote:1. Why not? Not everybody objects to this. It isn't hard to just tell missionaries to go away.


Because allowing proselytism runs directly counter to freedom of religion imo. It benefits proselytizing religions at the expense of atheists or non-proselytizing faiths.


I mean, if the argument here is "people might convert if you tell other people about your religion" I feel like that's not a strong argument.

Especially from someone like you, who often proudly makes the point of how much your particular religion is growing in popularity.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:37 am

Loeje wrote:
Belshekistan wrote:The point is that it can be addictive and destructive, especially with the more "out there" denominations such as pentecostalism or evangelism.

I think you mean evangelicalism. Which doesn't even have to be destructive. It can, like good music, just make your life better.

Or, like EDM, it can make you miserable. You only do either because you like it, or in the case of EDM because you have a musical taste malfunction.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:38 am

Belshekistan wrote:I'm not saying that's the study's point, I'm saying that's my point.


And considering you're not any kind of expert or professional in this field, and are clearly ideologically biased, your point is safely disregarded.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Garkland
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 448
Founded: Jan 20, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Garkland » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:38 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Garkland wrote:

If the world worked like you said cults wouldn't exist. people aren't stupid yes, but cults take advantage of the weak and vulnerable. This is how they are able to gain so many followers because they are attractive to those who are experiencing loss, are young, or just generally vulnerable. It's not people's fault that they want to follow the crowd, it's a natural instinct and a result of how our brain functions. Yes, some people have themselves to blame for joining cults, but a large majority are genuinely tricked and it's not their fault.

'Genuinely tricked?'
That's rather patronising, don't you think? You're suggesting that they were unable to make their own decisions and had no part in choosing to follow the religious nonsense that was being fed to them.



I reocmend that you learn why cults are so successful and then you, may understand why I think cult members are victims, not fools.
( Insider explains 3 reasons why people join cults, according to a cult-recovery therapist--- https://www.insider.com/why-people-join ... ors-2020-9)
( another website says 10 Things to Know About the Psychology of Cults which explains why cults are able to trick people so easily- https://www.onlinepsychologydegree.info ... -of-cults/)

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15908
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:39 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Anglicora wrote:1. Why not? Not everybody objects to this. It isn't hard to just tell missionaries to go away.


Because allowing proselytism runs directly counter to freedom of religion imo. It benefits proselytizing religions at the expense of atheists or non-proselytizing faiths.

If people aren't allowed to publicly advocate for the correctness of their religious beliefs then they don't really have freedom of religion.

Additionally, faiths such as Christianity and Islam specifically command their followers to spread God's word. Banning proselytisation prevents Christians, Muslims and followers of other proselytising faiths from fulfilling their religious obligations.
Whisky-loving Anglican monarchist and one time moderator.
"It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo

User avatar
Anglicora
Attaché
 
Posts: 80
Founded: Dec 21, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Anglicora » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:39 am

Belshekistan wrote:
Anglicora wrote:Then that's a problem for non-proselytising faiths.


No that's literally not the point. The study that you are citing does not say that at all. You are lying.

I'm not saying that's the study's point, I'm saying that's my point.

Which is not supported by the evidence you cited. You got misled by a headline and now you're backtracking because you exposed the fact you never actually read the study.
Last edited by Anglicora on Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Republic of Anglicora | Res Pvblica Anglicora
Governed by President Keegan Elliot and Prime Minister Ciaran McColl
He set His King upon the Holy Hill of Zion
A modern constitutional republic comprised of Northern European Protestants
OOC Overview | Factbooks
One-Nation Neoconservative

User avatar
Belshekistan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Belshekistan » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:39 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Belshekistan wrote:Size is not the distinction, but it is the most helpful indicator. The distinction is control. The smaller and more tightly knit the group is, the more likely it is that most or all of the group truly believes in whatever harmful ideology the group's leadership espouses, but even a large group can have widespread indoctrination to those ideas. I know from my experience talking to catholics that this is not the case with them.

I know a good few pagan groups which are very tight-knit and small, like what you describe. Very nice people. Dangerous cults?

I assume if they're very nice people, they don't do dangerous things like murder people in cold blood or command their members to kill themselves. It's not just being small and tight knit/high control or just dangerous ideology espoused by the leadership that makes a cult dangerous, it's a combination of both.
Last edited by Belshekistan on Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
ATTENTION: In-character name is the People's Federation of Northern Eurasia
The 4th Warsaw Pact
NATIONAL NEWS: Northern Eurasia has plastered an enormous hammer and sickle on the surface of the moon to spite America.
DEFCON: [5] 4 3 2 BLYAT
IC location: the Soviet Union but with all Germany, plus Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark.
Now with 100% more full control of the moon, Mars and Venus!
I sometimes use NS stats

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48274
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:40 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Because allowing proselytism runs directly counter to freedom of religion imo. It benefits proselytizing religions at the expense of atheists or non-proselytizing faiths.


I mean, if the argument here is "people might convert if you tell other people about your religion" I feel like that's not a strong argument.

Especially from someone like you, who often proudly makes the point of how much your particular religion is growing in popularity.


Oh I have no problems with people converting to different faiths. Quite the opposite oftentimes it's a rather beautiful thing in a way I think. But rampant proselytism and a pluralistic multi-religious society don't really mesh well together, at least historically. If we're to have true freedom of religion then the old atheist line of freedom from religion also needs to exist in some capacity as well.
Greco-Roman Polytheist
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 756
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:40 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Loeje wrote:I think you mean evangelicalism. Which doesn't even have to be destructive. It can, like good music, just make your life better.

Or, like EDM, it can make you miserable. You only do either because you like it, or in the case of EDM because you have a musical taste malfunction.

If EDM makes people happy, and I don't know if it does, then that can be a good thing too. Religion can make people miserable, but then it's not a problem with religion as a whole, or with that specific religion, but with the way it's practiced by certain people.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Anglicora
Attaché
 
Posts: 80
Founded: Dec 21, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Anglicora » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:42 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, if the argument here is "people might convert if you tell other people about your religion" I feel like that's not a strong argument.

Especially from someone like you, who often proudly makes the point of how much your particular religion is growing in popularity.


Oh I have no problems with people converting to different faiths. Quite the opposite oftentimes it's a rather beautiful thing in a way I think. But rampant proselytism and a pluralistic multi-religious society don't really mesh well together, at least historically. If we're to have true freedom of religion then the old atheist line of freedom from religion also needs to exist in some capacity as well.

But proselytising doesn't necessarily infringe on this. Nobody is forcing them to convert or even listen. If a missionary comes to their door, they can say "thanks but no thanks" and shut the door on them. If they go in public and they hear street preachers, well so what? It's public space. They can shout about whatever they want too.
The Republic of Anglicora | Res Pvblica Anglicora
Governed by President Keegan Elliot and Prime Minister Ciaran McColl
He set His King upon the Holy Hill of Zion
A modern constitutional republic comprised of Northern European Protestants
OOC Overview | Factbooks
One-Nation Neoconservative

User avatar
Garkland
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 448
Founded: Jan 20, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Garkland » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:43 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Belshekistan wrote:Size is not the distinction, but it is the most helpful indicator. The distinction is control. The smaller and more tightly knit the group is, the more likely it is that most or all of the group truly believes in whatever harmful ideology the group's leadership espouses, but even a large group can have widespread indoctrination to those ideas. I know from my experience talking to catholics that this is not the case with them.

I know a good few pagan groups which are very tight-knit and small, like what you describe. Very nice people. Dangerous cults?



A cult in my definition is a group centered around a particular ideology or belief and maintains itself through a charismatic leader. Their lives are severely controlled and monitored in some way. Cults employ serval tricks including an answer to life's biggest questions, security, and companionship. Some can argue that early Christianity was a cult, however, it quickly became a part of society. Any religion can be detrimental and still not be a cult.
Last edited by Garkland on Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:43 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, if the argument here is "people might convert if you tell other people about your religion" I feel like that's not a strong argument.

Especially from someone like you, who often proudly makes the point of how much your particular religion is growing in popularity.


Oh I have no problems with people converting to different faiths. Quite the opposite oftentimes it's a rather beautiful thing in a way I think. But rampant proselytism and a pluralistic multi-religious society don't really mesh well together, at least historically. If we're to have true freedom of religion then the old atheist line of freedom from religion also needs to exist in some capacity as well.


I mean, people have freedom from religion in the sense that they can very freely say no to anyone, and have no association with a religious institution without consequence to that choice. Which, I do support. I think people should be able to live according to their conscience.

Which is also why I think people should be allowed to evangelize as well, if their conscience calls them to do that. The worst that can happen is that some people might convert if they agree with the evangelist. Who is that hurting?
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13850
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:46 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Page wrote:
Children's bodily autonomy comes before their parents' religious rights. Banning genital mutilation on unconsenting babies (which they are AWAKE for and feel severe PAIN) is no worse than banning conversion therapy or letting your child die because you're a JW who doesn't believe in blood transfusions.

Further, a baby is not a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew (in religious terms, not ethnicity) or a Buddhist. Babies have no religion. You can't be part of a religion without the mental capacity for understanding it.


This is very explicitly not true in religious terms. Muslims believe all people are born Muslim as far as I know, which is why they call converts reverts.


Some Muslims making this claim doesn't make it so. Being a part of any kind of religion, ideology, or philosophy requires active assent.
I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." - Noam Chomsky

Protect yourself from Covid-19: Stop licking boots.

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:50 am

Garkland wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:'Genuinely tricked?'
That's rather patronising, don't you think? You're suggesting that they were unable to make their own decisions and had no part in choosing to follow the religious nonsense that was being fed to them.



I reocmend that you learn why cults are so successful and then you, may understand why I think cult members are victims, not fools.
( Insider explains 3 reasons why people join cults, according to a cult-recovery therapist--- https://www.insider.com/why-people-join ... ors-2020-9)
( another website says 10 Things to Know About the Psychology of Cults which explains why cults are able to trick people so easily- https://www.onlinepsychologydegree.info ... -of-cults/)

So taking the one with only 3 reasons first:
1. They want to better themselves, either professionally or personally
Cults are marketed to people who want to better themselves, this is true. You know what I market to people who want to better themselves professionally? Custom web design. Wanting to better yourself as a reason means one thing to me: you made this decision. There was a thought process involved here and that was your reason. This applies both to cults and to custom web design, although custom web design is cheaper, to your exact specifications and delivered on time. Sex isn't included though and there's a very low enlightenment potential. I recommend shopping around when wishing to better yourself professionally.

2. They want a greater sense of community
I understand the very common use of loneliness to mean vulnerability, and for a minority of people that might hold true. Wanting a larger community however doesn't make you in some way vulnerable or less in control of your decisions, it just means that you want to get to know more people and probably that you prefer to meet more people in a more structured way. Personally I prefer zoom calls to cults if I want to meet people from all around the world, again far cheaper and the worst that the host will do to me is mute me when I get too drunk.

3. They're in a state of extreme vulnerability
Being apparently 'vulnerable' does not mean you are not in control of your decision-making processes. I could give so many reasons why I've made bad decisions throughout my life: you know what they're called? Excuses. If I'm a horrible person because I'm grieving or I'm ill, that is on me rather than the world around. Sure, if you leave a cult and feel that what happened to you during said cult was traumatic and something you need help with, that help should be something you can get. I don't think though that the poor actions of some people should deprive others of the right to make their own choices.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15908
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:51 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Oh I have no problems with people converting to different faiths. Quite the opposite oftentimes it's a rather beautiful thing in a way I think. But rampant proselytism and a pluralistic multi-religious society don't really mesh well together, at least historically. If we're to have true freedom of religion then the old atheist line of freedom from religion also needs to exist in some capacity as well.


I mean, people have freedom from religion in the sense that they can very freely say no to anyone, and have no association with a religious institution without consequence to that choice. Which, I do support. I think people should be able to live according to their conscience.

Which is also why I think people should be allowed to evangelize as well, if their conscience calls them to do that. The worst that can happen is that some people might convert if they agree with the evangelist. Who is that hurting?

Well, if the evangelist doesn't belong to the right religion, the convert might end up in Hell. I've heard that hurts quite a lot :p
Whisky-loving Anglican monarchist and one time moderator.
"It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:51 am

Page wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
This is very explicitly not true in religious terms. Muslims believe all people are born Muslim as far as I know, which is why they call converts reverts.


Some Muslims making this claim doesn't make it so. Being a part of any kind of religion, ideology, or philosophy requires active assent.


That's not really true of ethnic religion.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:53 am

Belshekistan wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:I know a good few pagan groups which are very tight-knit and small, like what you describe. Very nice people. Dangerous cults?

I assume if they're very nice people, they don't do dangerous things like murder people in cold blood or command their members to kill themselves. It's not just being small and tight knit/high control or just dangerous ideology espoused by the leadership that makes a cult dangerous, it's a combination of both.

So then we come down to what I've been saying. The actions of the cult, in commanding their members to kill themselves/others, are what should be punished here. The cult itself should not be and people should be given the choice of what religious organisations they wish to associate with.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:53 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:Well, if the evangelist doesn't belong to the right religion, the convert might end up in Hell. I've heard that hurts quite a lot :p


Well, that's a separate matter entirely :P
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
CoraSpia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11162
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:55 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Page wrote:
Some Muslims making this claim doesn't make it so. Being a part of any kind of religion, ideology, or philosophy requires active assent.


That's not really true of ethnic religion.

Kind of is. You could be born to a jewish family but if you know nothing about the religion (like babies do not) you can hardly be considered part of that religion and to have consented to its edicts. It's the same reason that some Christian groups practice adult baptism.
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15908
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:55 am

Page wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
This is very explicitly not true in religious terms. Muslims believe all people are born Muslim as far as I know, which is why they call converts reverts.


Some Muslims making this claim doesn't make it so. Being a part of any kind of religion, ideology, or philosophy requires active assent.

That's an assumption based on your own secular worldview, which highlights one of the fundamental issues with a secular state; secularists claim that a secular state is in essence value-neutral, not enforcing any particular value system on its citizens, but this is not the case in reality. A secular state will still legislate based on a particular system of values, and in doing so impose those values on its citizens whether they share them or not. Secular states are in this sense no different from confessional states and have no moral high ground over them regardless of what secularists may claim.
Whisky-loving Anglican monarchist and one time moderator.
"It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22658
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:57 am

Garkland wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:I know a good few pagan groups which are very tight-knit and small, like what you describe. Very nice people. Dangerous cults?



A cult in my definition is a group centered around a particular ideology or belief and maintains itself through a charismatic leader. Their lives are severely controlled and monitored in some way. Cults employ serval tricks including an answer to life's biggest questions, security, and companionship. Some can argue that early Christianity was a cult, however, it quickly became a part of society. Any religion can be detrimental and still not be a cult.


I wouldn't say that early Christianity severely controlled its adherents. It was a pretty out-in-the-open religion outside of periods where they were being persecuted.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Brulave
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: May 22, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Brulave » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:57 am

Just enough so that they don't try to start a revolution in you

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -SARS-, Aggicificicerous, Bienenhalde, Borderlands of Rojava, Cannot think of a name, Galloism, Greater Miami Shores, Heloin, Infected Mushroom, Lorsi, Muzehnaya, Omniabstracta, San Lumen, Shanghai industrial complex, The Alma Mater, The Champions League, The Two Jerseys, Uiiop, Valentine Z, Washington Resistance Army, Whitemore

Advertisement

Remove ads