How much religious freedom is needed?

[CoraSpia]

Yet NBC compared banning male genital cutting to the holocaust.

No i am not kidding.

It's not that much of a stretch. Illegalising circumcision for minors raises serious barriers to Jewish families raising their children in their faith, and therefore treating it like an attempt at cultural genocide is not wholly invalid. Cultural genocide may not be as horrific as actual genocide like the Holocaust, but it's still pretty terrible.

In my made-up religion, if I have a baby girl I have to cut one of her toes off and sacrifice it to the great toe-loving angel Yalunki who lives under the sea. Stopping me doing that is an act of cultural genocide, surely? Or is it only bad if it's an established religion you attack?

[The Alma Mater]

Yet NBC compared banning male genital cutting to the holocaust.

No i am not kidding.

It's not that much of a stretch. Illegalising circumcision for minors raises serious barriers to Jewish families raising their children in their faith, and therefore treating it like an attempt at cultural genocide is not wholly invalid. Cultural genocide may not be as horrific as actual genocide like the Holocaust, but it's still pretty terrible.

Why ? If a religion hinges on the mutilation of a childs genitals, why would getting rid of the religion be "pretty terrible" ?

[Salus Maior]

That’s actually pretty opposed to Marxist assumptions. As it’s strictly an act opposed to materialism, Christ told him to give up his wealth for spiritual, immaterial gain.

You know, those things that Marx called opium.

Marxism isn't the only type of docialism

And Socialism doesn't have an exclusive license on charity or generosity. And isn't ascetic or anti-materialist.

It's almost as if saying Christ "was a socialist" is just a lazy political jab at religious non-socialists, and has basically no basis.

[The Alma Mater]

Marxism isn't the only type of docialism

And Socialism doesn't have an exclusive license on charity or generosity. And isn't ascetic or anti-materialist.

It's almost as if saying Christ "was a socialist" is just a lazy political jab at religious non-socialists, and has basically no basis.

Then again, it is likely that christ would have preferred Bernie over Trump.

[Salus Maior]

Well, how was He "socialist" then. Why is that any sort of accurate descriptor?

I don't seem to recall Jesus saying that the proletariat should seize the means of production.

It would actually be physically impossible because the proletariat as a class hadn't come into existence yet.

Which is why saying Jesus was a socialist is not only wrong, but anachronistic.

I would rather Alcala-Cordel be real, I would undoubtedly be better treated there than in a Catholic state.

Exactly my point.

Also, there are precedents for pluralistic Catholic states.

[CoraSpia]

It's not that much of a stretch. Illegalising circumcision for minors raises serious barriers to Jewish families raising their children in their faith, and therefore treating it like an attempt at cultural genocide is not wholly invalid. Cultural genocide may not be as horrific as actual genocide like the Holocaust, but it's still pretty terrible.

My Jewish theology might be a bit rusty but it's beyond a serious issue at least in orthodox Judaism I think. I'm pretty sure circumcision is directly required by G-d and you can't really be a Jew without doing it so yeah claims of cultural genocide aren't unfounded.

That's extremely sad. I guess that there won't be many more 'real' jews left then, or the ones that do exist will be in prison for child abuse. When you mutilate a child, religious exceptions can go out the window.

[Garkland]

It's easy to say "everybody should have lots of religious freedom" and everybody agrees with that ( of course I mean the majority of people).
But what about so-called "religions" that are actually cults that can be very detrimental to people and can cause corruption? When does giving rights and liberties to religions become allowing cults and charismatic power-hungry religious leaders to grow in influence and take advantage of their "religious followers"?

[Washington Resistance Army]

My Jewish theology might be a bit rusty but it's beyond a serious issue at least in orthodox Judaism I think. I'm pretty sure circumcision is directly required by G-d and you can't really be a Jew without doing it so yeah claims of cultural genocide aren't unfounded.

That's extremely sad. I guess that there won't be many more 'real' jews left then, or the ones that do exist will be in prison for child abuse. When you mutilate a child, religious exceptions can go out the window.

It's bizarrely out of character for you to care about others wellbeing and I'm now concerned.

[Belshekistan]

All of these groups killed people, either themselves or others. That is unacceptable.

Is it? I guess we should ban the roman catholic church, they've killed loads of people over the years.

The Catholic church is more complex, being a much larger group that by and large no longer follows the disgusting, regressive policies they did in the past. However they continue to have far too much influence to the present day. Were it possible to dismantle the Catholic church without causing harm to the Catholics who promote peace and tolerance, I would support such an action.

[CoraSpia]

It's easy to say "everybody should have lots of religious freedom" and everybody agrees with that ( of course I mean the majority of people).
But what about so-called "religions" that are actually cults that can be very detrimental to people and can cause corruption? When does giving rights and liberties to religions become allowing cults and charismatic power-hungry religious leaders to grow in influence and take advantage of their "religious followers"?

You act like that's a big issue. It isn't. People choose who to follow, who talks sense, who's chagging shit. It's the same for religions, politicians and companies. If you mindlessly follow the shit that someone else spews then on your own head be it.

[Anglicora]

IMO, keep your religion private in your house and your church/mosque/synagogue/whatever. No public evangelizing. If people want to convert, they will seek conversion out

Why should religious people keep their views private but you're allowed to publicly proclaim your beliefs?

and didn't Jesus say to pray in private anyway?

Praying in public is okay but not if you're doing for attention. Regardless, most of the world's religious are not Christians anyway so citing Jesus Christ isn't that helpful.

I believe religion also has a similar effect on the brain as hard drugs, so maybe we should make it illegal for minors to participate in religion as well? Something to consider.

wtf lmao this sounds like utter nonsense

[Salus Maior]

And Socialism doesn't have an exclusive license on charity or generosity. And isn't ascetic or anti-materialist.

It's almost as if saying Christ "was a socialist" is just a lazy political jab at religious non-socialists, and has basically no basis.

Then again, it is likely that christ would have preferred Bernie over Trump.

Or, maybe He would condemn America's very existence for not rendering unto George III and rebelling over an incredibly minor tax.

Speculation is fun, but it's also pointless.

[Stellar Colonies]

Unfortunately...


Wow, they really did...

Damn, I didn't know that trying to get rid of the practice of slashing into baby genitals was comparable to the industrialized murder of millions. Thanks NBC!

Okay, all this talk of circumcision as "mutilation" seems like scaremongering to me. I'm circumcised for hygienic reasons, and I like being circumcised. I really can't see any difference between circumcision and and any other surgery. I suppose I can see not wanting it practiced on babies, but shouldn't the option remain?

The minimum age should be eighteen or some other suitable limit, to help ensure the patient can give informed consent.

My issue is that children are subjected to it for merely religious or cultural reasons.

[CoraSpia]

That's extremely sad. I guess that there won't be many more 'real' jews left then, or the ones that do exist will be in prison for child abuse. When you mutilate a child, religious exceptions can go out the window.

It's bizarrely out of character for you to care about others wellbeing and I'm now concerned.

A lot of my beliefs hinge on a very strong belief in the difference between a deliberate act and an omission.

[The Alma Mater]

I believe religion also has a similar effect on the brain as hard drugs, so maybe we should make it illegal for minors to participate in religion as well? Something to consider.

wtf lmao this sounds like utter nonsense

Remember: we have the Catholics to thank for the Q-Anon movement.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Then again, it is likely that christ would have preferred Bernie over Trump.

Or, maybe He would condemn America's very existence for not rendering unto George III and rebelling over an incredibly minor tax.

Speculation is fun, but it's also pointless.

Washington was the true Caesar and you know it.

[Salus Maior]

wtf lmao this sounds like utter nonsense

Remember: we have the Catholics to thank for the Q-Anon movement.

Uh, no.

It's literally just another 4-chan abomination that's spilled over.

[CoraSpia]

Is it? I guess we should ban the roman catholic church, they've killed loads of people over the years.

The Catholic church is more complex, being a much larger group that by and large no longer follows the disgusting, regressive policies they did in the past. However they continue to have far too much influence to the present day. Were it possible to dismantle the Catholic church without causing harm to the Catholics who promote peace and tolerance, I would support such an action.

So what is the distinction that you draw between two groups that are apparently harmful? Is it size? Length of establishment?

[Salus Maior]

Or, maybe He would condemn America's very existence for not rendering unto George III and rebelling over an incredibly minor tax.

Speculation is fun, but it's also pointless.

Washington was the true Caesar and you know it.

Washington was too reluctant to have power to be Caesar.

[Loeje]

And Socialism doesn't have an exclusive license on charity or generosity. And isn't ascetic or anti-materialist.

It's almost as if saying Christ "was a socialist" is just a lazy political jab at religious non-socialists, and has basically no basis.

Then again, it is likely that christ would have preferred Bernie over Trump.

To be fair, that was more of a problem with Trump. Not Bernie being that good.

[The Alma Mater]

Remember: we have the Catholics to thank for the Q-Anon movement.

Uh, no.

It's literally just another 4-chan abomination that's spilled over.

Q-anon originated in a support group for people abused by Catholic priests. It went a bit downhill from there.

[Anglicora]

Is it? I guess we should ban the roman catholic church, they've killed loads of people over the years.

The Catholic church is more complex, being a much larger group that by and large no longer follows the disgusting, regressive policies they did in the past. However they continue to have far too much influence to the present day. Were it possible to dismantle the Catholic church without causing harm to the Catholics who promote peace and tolerance, I would support such an action.

This is impossible because the existence of the Church is integral to Catholicism. Dismantling the Church is dismantling Catholicism. Try and dismantle the Church and you will end up with a bloodbath.

Also, there are precedents for pluralistic Catholic states.

Yep! People like to think of Franco or feudalism when recalling Catholic politics, but conveniently ignore people like Jacques Maritain and Robert Schuman - two orthodox Catholics who were proponents of democracy and freedom.

Okay, all this talk of circumcision as "mutilation" seems like scaremongering to me. I'm circumcised for hygienic reasons, and I like being circumcised. I really can't see any difference between circumcision and and any other surgery. I suppose I can see not wanting it practiced on babies, but shouldn't the option remain?

Circumcision is by definition the mutilation of genitals. The option should remain for adults who wish to be circumcised, but no under-18s should have their genitals mutilated.

[Old Tyrannia]

It's not that much of a stretch. Illegalising circumcision for minors raises serious barriers to Jewish families raising their children in their faith, and therefore treating it like an attempt at cultural genocide is not wholly invalid. Cultural genocide may not be as horrific as actual genocide like the Holocaust, but it's still pretty terrible.

Why ? If a religion hinges on the mutilation of a childs genitals, why would getting rid of the religion be "pretty terrible" ?

Describing male circumcision as "mutilation" is an exaggeration for what is largely a cosmetic surgery and an obvious appeal to emotion, and the fact that you think erasing a particular ethnoreligious group from existence would be a good thing is frankly horrifying. Comparisons to the Nazis might be excessive, but you're certainly not too different from, say, colonial administrations in Canada who forced First Nations children to attend boarding schools where they were not permitted to speak their people's languages and deliberately isolated from their communities in order to cut them off from their cultural roots. That's essentially what you want to do to Jewish communities that have already withstood more than two millennia of persecution. Deliberately trying to destroy a culture using the power of the state is wrong.

[Salus Maior]

I believe religion also has a similar effect on the brain as hard drugs, so maybe we should make it illegal for minors to participate in religion as well? Something to consider.

Yeah, that's bullshit.

[Page]

Yet NBC compared banning male genital cutting to the holocaust.

No i am not kidding.

It's not that much of a stretch. Illegalising circumcision for minors raises serious barriers to Jewish families raising their children in their faith, and therefore treating it like an attempt at cultural genocide is not wholly invalid. Cultural genocide may not be as horrific as actual genocide like the Holocaust, but it's still pretty terrible.

Children's bodily autonomy comes before their parents' religious rights. Banning genital mutilation on unconsenting babies (which they are AWAKE for and feel severe PAIN) is no worse than banning conversion therapy or letting your child die because you're a JW who doesn't believe in blood transfusions.

Further, a baby is not a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew (in religious terms, not ethnicity) or a Buddhist. Babies have no religion. You can't be part of a religion without the mental capacity for understanding it.