Mass protests in Russia demanding release of Alexei Navalny

[Adamede]

I really don't know why so many Westerners have this love for Navalny. He has cheered on campaigns to end federal subsidies to the Caucasus republics (literally called Stop Feeding the Caucasus), is in favor of pro-Russian secessionist movements in various former Soviet states, has said he wont hand Crimea back to Ukraine and has even stated that the long term goal of Russian foreign policy should be to annex Belarus and Ukraine. Further iirc he defended a bunch of riots by Russian ethnonats because a murder was blamed on a migrant. This man isn't some lofty Western liberal, he's just part of the Russian nationalist community that hates Putin because they don't think Putin is nationalist enough.

Abkhaz, South Ossetia, and Transnistria are all culturally Russian, there’s nothing wrong with supporting their annexation into Russia

Uh yah there is. Doesn’t matter if they’re ethnic Russians it’s, they lie outside of Russia’s territory.

[Saiwania]

Personally I think Navalny is going to have a mysterious and fatal accident a few months after he gets released, so being released may not be in his best interest.

He shouldn't have returned to Russia in my opinion. Russian intelligence agencies (perhaps the FSB) to my knowledge, has already tried to kill him. There was an assassination team he is rumored to have tricked into revealing how he was poisoned over the phone. His underwear was sabotaged where Novichok nerve agent in powder form was deposited whilst he was away. With the intention being that it'd be absorbed into his body if he sweated down there any whilst wearing that underwear.

[Albrenia]

Personally I think Navalny is going to have a mysterious and fatal accident a few months after he gets released, so being released may not be in his best interest.

He shouldn't have returned to Russia in my opinion. Russian intelligence agencies (perhaps the FSB) to my knowledge, has already tried to kill him. There was an assassination team he is rumored to have tricked into revealing how he was poisoned over the phone. His underwear was sabotaged where Novichok nerve agent in powder form was deposited whilst he was away. With the intention being that it'd be absorbed into his body if he sweated down there any whilst wearing that underwear.

If I were him I'd never have returned to Russia, but he's clearly of the opinion that doing so is worthwhile, for whatever reason.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm pretty sure Putin is still pretty popular in Russia, and that these protests will not lead to any real change. Russia has had these types of protests before and the status quo always remained.

[Punished UMN]

I really don't know why so many Westerners have this love for Navalny. He has cheered on campaigns to end federal subsidies to the Caucasus republics (literally called Stop Feeding the Caucasus), is in favor of pro-Russian secessionist movements in various former Soviet states, has said he wont hand Crimea back to Ukraine and has even stated that the long term goal of Russian foreign policy should be to annex Belarus and Ukraine. Further iirc he defended a bunch of riots by Russian ethnonats because a murder was blamed on a migrant. This man isn't some lofty Western liberal, he's just part of the Russian nationalist community that hates Putin because they don't think Putin is nationalist enough.

Abkhaz, South Ossetia, and Transnistria are all culturally Russian, there’s nothing wrong with supporting their annexation into Russia

No they aren't, and Russian foreign policy would disagree with you as well. Russia has made those territories de facto independent. It could annex the former two if it really wanted to.

[The Marlborough]

Abkhaz, South Ossetia, and Transnistria are all culturally Russian, there’s nothing wrong with supporting their annexation into Russia

No they aren't, and Russian foreign policy would disagree with you as well. Russia has made those territories de facto independent. It could annex the former two if it really wanted to.

Tbf Russia has made advancements in integrating South Ossetia iirc. I think part of the reason it wont pull a Crimea is because it would be too close to home for Turkey and also the general dislike of Caucasians among Russians.

[The Marlborough]

I'm pretty sure Putin is still pretty popular in Russia, and that these protests will not lead to any real change. Russia has had these types of protests before and the status quo always remained.

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I'm pretty sure Putin is still pretty popular in Russia, and that these protests will not lead to any real change. Russia has had these types of protests before and the status quo always remained.

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

Mavalny hung out with the far-right. He ain't a liberal either.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I'm pretty sure Putin is still pretty popular in Russia, and that these protests will not lead to any real change. Russia has had these types of protests before and the status quo always remained.

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

If that’s the case then I’d actually prefer Putin to remain to prevent even more illiberal people from taking power. Why do many people in Russia hate the oligarchs that much? They are nowhere as bad as any Russian ruler. How many people have Berezovsky murdered? What about Gorbachev? Andropov? Brezhnev? Nicholas II? Putin himself?

One thing I noticed is that culturally Russians often have problems with trade. Trade is good and there is nothing wrong with that. You guys can make good software like Telegram and Kaspersky and sell them. What’s immoral about that?

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

Mavalny hung out with the far-right. He ain't a liberal either.

I mean, in modern Russia, it’s either far right or further right, the communist party is dying ironically despite the fact most Russians are nostalgic about the USSR. It’s a bit like Serbia, almost everyone who live under Tito loved him, but support ultranationalist far right parties today

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Mavalny hung out with the far-right. He ain't a liberal either.

I mean, in modern Russia, it’s either far right or further right, the communist party is dying ironically despite the fact most Russians are nostalgic about the USSR. It’s a bit like Serbia, almost everyone who live under Tito loved him, but support ultranationalist far right parties today

It’s probably because people are using one dimension for politics. Communists and USSR fans are economically leftist but at the same time such people are often socially rightist. Hatred towards Jews and hatred towards businessmen is united in the stereotype that businessmen are often Jewish. Hence we get National Socialism aka Nazism.

There is really no irony here as long as we understand that antisemitism stems from an inferiority complex as opposed to a superiority one which is clear if you have ever read any antisemitic nonsense, both old and modern. Julius Streicher himself admitted that in his insane Der Stürmer.

[Atheris]

Idk man Finland is pretty perfidious.

I mean if any nation has proven it deserves to exist it’s Finland.

Also you never know when they’ll pull another Hayha out of their sleeve.

You can't abolish a nation if it doesn't exist. *taps head*

[The Marlborough]

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

If that’s the case then I’d actually prefer Putin to remain to prevent even more illiberal people from taking power. Why do many people in Russia hate the oligarchs that much? They are nowhere as bad as any Russian ruler. How many people have Berezovsky murdered? What about Gorbachev? Andropov? Brezhnev? Nicholas II? Putin himself?

One thing I noticed is that culturally Russians often have problems with trade. Trade is good and there is nothing wrong with that. You guys can make good software like Telegram and Kaspersky and sell them. What’s immoral about that?

Putin has killed fewer people than Berezovsky let alone the other 90's oligarchs. Entire markets were battled over literally with bullets and murders. You couldn't rise up in Russia's major industries without killing people. The struggles over Russia's aluminum market resulted in at least 100 assassinations of factory heads and CEO's alone (not including bodyguards, journalists, cops, workers, etc) and that wasn't even the bloodiest market. I use the aluminum market as an example because some pretty high profile names got their start in said industry, like Roman Abramovich.

And yes, the rule of the oligarchs was far worse than Russia under Putin, the Soviet Union (post-Stalin that is), or the Tsars.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

If that’s the case then I’d actually prefer Putin to remain to prevent even more illiberal people from taking power. Why do many people in Russia hate the oligarchs that much? They are nowhere as bad as any Russian ruler. How many people have Berezovsky murdered? What about Gorbachev? Andropov? Brezhnev? Nicholas II? Putin himself?

One thing I noticed is that culturally Russians often have problems with trade. Trade is good and there is nothing wrong with that. You guys can make good software like Telegram and Kaspersky and sell them. What’s immoral about that?

Putin has killed fewer people than Berezovsky let alone the other 90's oligarchs. Entire markets were battled over literally with bullets and murders. You couldn't rise up in Russia's major industries without killing people. The struggles over Russia's aluminum market resulted in at least 100 assassination of factory heads and CEO's alone (not including bodyguards, journalists, cops, workers, etc) and that wasn't even the bloodiest market. I use the aluminum market as an example because some pretty high profile names got their start in said industry, like Roman Abramovich.

And yes, the rule of the oligarchs was far worse than Russia under Putin, the Soviet Union (post-Stalin that is), or the Tsars.

That’s very weird. Why did it happen though? Because of the complete absence of civil society in the post-Soviet vacuum? What’s your opinion on Ukrainian ones such as Akhmetov and Poroshenko?

[The Marlborough]

Putin has killed fewer people than Berezovsky let alone the other 90's oligarchs. Entire markets were battled over literally with bullets and murders. You couldn't rise up in Russia's major industries without killing people. The struggles over Russia's aluminum market resulted in at least 100 assassination of factory heads and CEO's alone (not including bodyguards, journalists, cops, workers, etc) and that wasn't even the bloodiest market. I use the aluminum market as an example because some pretty high profile names got their start in said industry, like Roman Abramovich.

And yes, the rule of the oligarchs was far worse than Russia under Putin, the Soviet Union (post-Stalin that is), or the Tsars.

That’s very weird. Why did it happen though? Because of the complete absence of civil society in the post-Soviet vacuum? What’s your opinion on Ukrainian ones such as Akhmetov and Poroshenko?

Because there was a near total collapse of the state and it became a massive free for all of cowboy capitalism. High stakes with lots of money to be made and little in the way to regulate things more peacefully and lawfully. It was easier to murder your opponent than go through a long drawn out court battle.

Yeah they had people killed as well, especially Akhmetov who got his start working for Akhat Bragin who was a powerful crime boss and gave Akhmetov his head start - hell Akhmetov inherited most of Bragin's assets after Bragin was blown up. Poroshenko also involved himself in the automotive industry which across the post-Soviet states was among the bloodiest markets to involve yourself in. IIRC one of Poroshenko's brothers was killed under very mysterious circumstances which probably was a result of Poroshenko's business dealings because targeting a rival's family was pretty popular even if said family member wasn't involved in the business dispute of the day. I don't know what to tell you, the vast majority of Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs have scores of bodies to their names and the hellholes they created in Ukraine and Russia is why Lukashenko cracked down so hard in Belarus. One of the reasons Lukashenko has been able to hold onto power is because he prevented Belarus from going through a similar phase and a lot of Belarusians prefer that not happen.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

That’s very weird. Why did it happen though? Because of the complete absence of civil society in the post-Soviet vacuum? What’s your opinion on Ukrainian ones such as Akhmetov and Poroshenko?

Because there was a near total collapse of the state and it became a massive free for all of cowboy capitalism. High stakes with lots of money to be made and little in the way to regulate things more peacefully and lawfully. It was easier to murder your opponent than go through a long drawn out court battle.

Yeah they had people killed as well, especially Akhmetov who got his start working for Akhat Bragin who was a powerful crime boss and gave Akhmetov his head start - hell Akhmetov inherited most of Bragin's assets after Bragin was blown up. Poroshenko also involved himself in the automotive industry which across the post-Soviet states was among the bloodiest markets to involve yourself in. IIRC one of Poroshenko's brothers was killed under very mysterious circumstances which probably was a result of Poroshenko's business dealings because targeting a rival's family was pretty popular even if said family member wasn't involved in the business dispute of the day. I don't know what to tell you, the vast majority of Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs have scores of bodies to their names and the hellholes they created in Ukraine and Russia is why Lukashenko cracked down so hard in Belarus. One of the reasons Lukashenko has been able to hold onto power is because he prevented Belarus from going through a similar phase and a lot of Belarusians prefer that not happen.

I see. That actually makes sense. So we can argue that Ukraine is what happens when oligarchs always get their way even today, right? How is life there for ordinary people now?

[The Marlborough]

Putin is popular but often not for the reasons a lot of people in the West think, not to the extent Western people might think, and opposition to him stems in large part from the people a lot of Westerners wouldn't think. A lot of the opposition to Putin comes from Russia's neo-Soviets and far-right, more so I'd say than it does among Russia's liberals because liberalism in Russia is really, really hated by many people especially those who had to live through the 90's and early-mid 2000's. There's a reason people like Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky don't garner a lot of sympathy within Russia and that's because people like them are really fucking hated, especially Berezovsky. I mean, Putin probably could have shot Berezovsky on live television and be celebrated for it because Berezovsky was that hated and that much of a piece of shit that it's astounding anyone could actually support him. Putin may be an asshole but he's still better than the people that were running Russia in the 90's who are associated with Western liberalism in many people's eyes (doesn't help that Western liberals also have supported these people). It's a pretty impotent faction within Russian politics as a result.

Mavalny hung out with the far-right. He ain't a liberal either.

Yes exactly. Navalny just says what he needs to say in order to garner the support from Western liberals who have no understanding of Russian politics. Navalny's support for things like SSM and him championing BLM are shallow as hell. Chances are he wouldn't go for the full legalization of SSM if he actually became President. Championing BLM in Russia is incredibly easy for him to do because there are like 40,000 black people in Russia and most of the ethnic/racial tensions are about people from the Caucasus and Central+East Asia which he has noticeably been silent on and that's because he himself has defended racist attitudes and actions towards said groups.

Nemstov was probably the last genuine high profile Western type liberal who genuinely believed in the stuff he said he believed in.

[The Marlborough]

Because there was a near total collapse of the state and it became a massive free for all of cowboy capitalism. High stakes with lots of money to be made and little in the way to regulate things more peacefully and lawfully. It was easier to murder your opponent than go through a long drawn out court battle.

Yeah they had people killed as well, especially Akhmetov who got his start working for Akhat Bragin who was a powerful crime boss and gave Akhmetov his head start - hell Akhmetov inherited most of Bragin's assets after Bragin was blown up. Poroshenko also involved himself in the automotive industry which across the post-Soviet states was among the bloodiest markets to involve yourself in. IIRC one of Poroshenko's brothers was killed under very mysterious circumstances which probably was a result of Poroshenko's business dealings because targeting a rival's family was pretty popular even if said family member wasn't involved in the business dispute of the day. I don't know what to tell you, the vast majority of Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs have scores of bodies to their names and the hellholes they created in Ukraine and Russia is why Lukashenko cracked down so hard in Belarus. One of the reasons Lukashenko has been able to hold onto power is because he prevented Belarus from going through a similar phase and a lot of Belarusians prefer that not happen.

I see. That actually makes sense. So we can argue that Ukraine is what happens when oligarchs always get their way even today, right? How is life there for ordinary people now?

It's not as bad but Russia is a better place to live than Ukraine (it's actually better to live in Belarus over Ukraine as well; iirc Belarusians are twice as wealthy on average than Ukrainians are) in part because Putin has been able to curtail the oligarchs whereas Ukraine hasn't. That's not to say Putin isn't corrupt and isn't nearly as good as some Western RW people like to think (I wouldn't even call him good although he is competent), but he is less corrupt than those he replaced - which should probably tell people about how bad corruption was in Russia if Putin and his cadre are an improvement.

[The Marlborough]

Also I should note that the idea of Putin rigging American elections wont be seen negatively by many considering how it's widely believed by many (including Western academics that research Russian politics) that the US helped rig the 1996 Presidential election in favor of Yeltsin through various means.

[Salus Maior]

Also I should note that the idea of Putin rigging American elections wont be seen negatively by many considering how it's widely believed by many (including Western academics that research Russian politics) that the US helped rig the 1996 Presidential election in favor of Yeltsin through various means.

Tbh, if I were Russia, I wouldn't put any sort of trust in Western Powers, especially not America.

I think it's fairly obvious that they're not interested in the good of the country.

[The Marlborough]

Also I should note that the idea of Putin rigging American elections wont be seen negatively by many considering how it's widely believed by many (including Western academics that research Russian politics) that the US helped rig the 1996 Presidential election in favor of Yeltsin through various means.

Tbh, if I were Russia, I wouldn't put any sort of trust in Western Powers, especially not America.

I think it's fairly obvious that they're not interested in the good of the country.

Yes and a lot of former liberals in Russia more or less feel stabbed in the back. They believed the propaganda that the West wanted Russians to be free and prosperous and instead had to live through an era of extreme hardship caused by incredibly immoral and corrupt oligarchs and politicians that received a ton of Western support. Also made worse with a feeling that the West treated Russia as a conquered foe when Russians do not consider the West to have beaten them at anything in regards to the Cold War (the collapse of the USSR is seen more as an internal caused event than a Western caused event). Putin himself was pretty willing to be open to the West until things like NATO expansion kept getting pressed and the various Color Revolutions occurred. Which was also made worse by continued Western backing to people like Berezovsky who were far, far from being liked in Russia. Honestly we shot ourselves in the foot.

[Diahon]

the 1990s was a lost decade, the second one in recent russian history (after 1917)

the opportunity to steer post-soviet russia into a direction away from centuries of authoritarianism and into a liberal western society or at least postwar japan with vodka was there, only westerners either reflexively or cynically supported that fucking powermongering drunkard yeltsin and his band of looting vultures

and lo and behold, they're about to do it again, this time with fucking navalny

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

It's going to be such a power vacuum when Putin does go, Russia is likely to descend into chaos.

[Page]

It's going to be such a power vacuum when Putin does go, Russia is likely to descend into chaos.

Only the most arrogant and shortsighted autocrats fail to designate an heir. Putin, well he may be arrogant but he's not shortsighted, he's not stupid, and I don't think he's the kind of autocrat who thinks nothing besides his reign matters. I think Putin is well aware he will die someday and he wants what he has built to continue when he's gone. So my guess is he will if he hasn't already choose a successor and make preparations to keep anyone else from grabbing power.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

It's going to be such a power vacuum when Putin does go, Russia is likely to descend into chaos.

Only the most arrogant and shortsighted autocrats fail to designate an heir. Putin, well he may be arrogant but he's not shortsighted, he's not stupid, and I don't think he's the kind of autocrat who thinks nothing besides his reign matters. I think Putin is well aware he will die someday and he wants what he has built to continue when he's gone. So my guess is he will if he hasn't already choose a successor and make preparations to keep anyone else from grabbing power.

Even carefully chosen successions can go awry. I'm trying to think of examples both ways to get a picture of how often, but my brain is refusing to go beyond Sir Alex Ferguson and Manchester United!