Christian Girl Rescued After Rape & Forced Marriage

[The Huskar Social Union]

No child should have to endure such horrors. I pray she recovers from the ordeal.

Such a horrible thing to go through. Its unfortunately probably going to scar her for life but i hope she is able to live a good life as best she can after this.

[Salus Maior]

Well, sure, rape is rape, and it's morally detestable regardless of why and how it happens.

But if we are interested in reducing rape, then it helps to examine why rapes happen (in that particular social and cultural contexts, of course) and see what we can do about those causes. There's nothing wrong with saying that rape is bad - it's true and basically nobody will say otherwise - but saying so doesn't tell us anything about how to rid society of this bad thing.

Whilst rape in this instance might have been religiously motivated, rape occurs for a multitude of reasons, and can occur amongst different sects of the population. A common recurring factor is a sense of power from the rapist, a show of strength.

Also, let's be real, rape can affect everyone. Most of all, it impacts women. Sexual violence against women is still a major problem, as is the same against men. However, most if not all women have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, rape, violence or just being made to feel uncomfortable.

Whilst we can pinpoint causes in each case to address, the answer in this case should not be to abolish religion and - I dunno if OP is dogwhistling - abolish Islam. As far as I know, even if there are verses advocating for this action, I don't really see or hear Muslims on a regular basis doing this.

A lot of it may have to do with mental health, as the below study/article suggests:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.555556

Bearing in mind it is specific to India and a couple years old, I have a more recent one.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5220302014

Yes, we all know rape can affect anyone and everyone.

So can getting shot unjustly by cops. But few people would take it well if someone said "oh, cops shoot everybody" on a police abuse thread, like what happened in Kenosha. Here the OP is trying to highlight the plight of religious minorities in Pakistan and the discriminatory practices endemic in Pakistan and apparently a good number of people have decided to take the "Oh, but cops shoot everybody" route.

[Salus Maior]

...
You guys know I’m a devout Muslim, right?

Yeah, that's what we've been trying to point out.

[Insaanistan]

Well, sure, rape is rape, and it's morally detestable regardless of why and how it happens.

But if we are interested in reducing rape, then it helps to examine why rapes happen (in that particular social and cultural contexts, of course) and see what we can do about those causes. There's nothing wrong with saying that rape is bad - it's true and basically nobody will say otherwise - but saying so doesn't tell us anything about how to rid society of this bad thing.

Whilst rape in this instance might have been religiously motivated, rape occurs for a multitude of reasons, and can occur amongst different sects of the population. A common recurring factor is a sense of power from the rapist, a show of strength.

Also, let's be real, rape can affect everyone. Most of all, it impacts women. Sexual violence against women is still a major problem, as is the same against men. However, most if not all women have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, rape, violence or just being made to feel uncomfortable.

Whilst we can pinpoint causes in each case to address, the answer in this case should not be to abolish religion and - I dunno if OP is dogwhistling - abolish Islam. As far as I know, even if there are verses advocating for this action, I don't really see or hear Muslims on a regular basis doing this.

A lot of it may have to do with mental health, as the below study/article suggests:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.555556

Bearing in mind it is specific to India and a couple years old, I have a more recent one.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5220302014

I
AM
A
MUSLIM!!!!!!!!

[Insaanistan]

...
You guys know I’m a devout Muslim, right?

Yeah, that's what we've been trying to point out.

Thank you! It seems like multiple people here are unaware of that.
This is why we have sigs, people!

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Which is fine and valid, I mean, I have some extraordinary differences with a number of Catholic clergy. Still Catholic.

Precisely my point. The OP doesn’t get to call these people non-Muslims just because they happen to have a different understanding of Islam than he (she?) does. It’s generally polite to call people what they wish to be called, and doubly so when there are stiff cultural differences between yourself and said people.

I mean, to put it the other way around, if we started discounting people’s Christianity whenever they do something that can be interpreted as un-Biblical, pretty soon we will have no Christians at all.

[Salus Maior]

Which is fine and valid, I mean, I have some extraordinary differences with a number of Catholic clergy. Still Catholic.

Precisely my point. The OP doesn’t get to call these people non-Muslims just because they happen to have a different understanding of Islam than he (she?) does. It’s generally polite to call people what they wish to be called, and doubly so when there are stiff cultural differences between yourself and said people.

I mean, to put it the other way around, if we started discounting people’s Christianity whenever they do something that can be interpreted as un-Biblical, pretty soon we will have no Christians at all.

I think that just means he feels strongly about the wrongness of what these people are doing, and that's based in his own understanding of Islam.

Anyway, I think it's a disservice to the topic at hand to focus on meaningless things like that when the OP is trying to highlight the suffering of a minority group at the hands of a privileged group.

[Insaanistan]

Which is fine and valid, I mean, I have some extraordinary differences with a number of Catholic clergy. Still Catholic.

Precisely my point. The OP doesn’t get to call these people non-Muslims just because they happen to have a different understanding of Islam than he (she?) does. It’s generally polite to call people what they wish to be called, and doubly so when there are stiff cultural differences between yourself and said people.

I mean, to put it the other way around, if we started discounting people’s Christianity whenever they do something that can be interpreted as un-Biblical, pretty soon we will have no Christians at all.

Actually, there’s a difference. If you curse, that doesn’t make you a bad Muslim, it makes you a human. If you rape a girl, by the most basic definitions, you are technically a Muslim, but you are what in Arabic is a referred to as a “munafiq”. So, I call them “Muslim”, the same way I call Aziz Ansari “Muslim”. But I call Hasan Minhaj, Malala Yousefzai, and Imran Khan Muslim. Does that mean they’re perfect people who never do anything Islamically impermissible? No.

Also: I AM A BOY!

[Page]

What does the religion of the perpetrator or the victim have to do with anything?

Quite a lot, religion is what lets people get away with child rape. In America when the feds raided the YFZ ranch, most of the men with child brides weren't even prosecuted, they only went after the leader. And it was known that these people had child brides for quite awhile.

If an adult rapes a child for non-religious reasons, he's in handcuffs in a nanosecond. Whether it's America or Pakistan, religious people get extra slack to abuse children. If a parent sends their kid to be tortured because they're mad the kid didn't clean their room, they go to jail instantly. But if they do it because their kid is gay and their God says they're not supposed to be, they get away with it.

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

[Suriyanakhon]

Which is fine and valid, I mean, I have some extraordinary differences with a number of Catholic clergy. Still Catholic.

Precisely my point. The OP doesn’t get to call these people non-Muslims just because they happen to have a different understanding of Islam than he (she?) does. It’s generally polite to call people what they wish to be called, and doubly so when there are stiff cultural differences between yourself and said people.

I mean, to put it the other way around, if we started discounting people’s Christianity whenever they do something that can be interpreted as un-Biblical, pretty soon we will have no Christians at all.

Should OP really be expected to respect the feeling of child rapists though?

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

Well said! Being religious is no excuse for uncivilised behaviour and it’s high time that religious people recognise that. These excuses should be given no more consideration than that of a five year old that demands special treatment for their imaginary friends that no-one else can see.

---

Should OP really be expected to respect the feeling of child rapists though?

Since religious people routinely demand that I show “respect” for their preposterous fantasies, the least they can do is demonstrate themselves what that respect looks like.

[Sundiata]

...
You guys know I’m a devout Muslim, right?

I'm sorry. I should not have so quickly presumed Islamophobia.

[Insaanistan]

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

Well said! Being religious is no excuse for uncivilised behaviour and it’s high time that religious people recognise that. These excuses should be given no more consideration than that of a five year old that demands special treatment for their imaginary friends that no-one else can see.

---

Should OP really be expected to respect the feeling of child rapists though?

Since religious people routinely demand that I show “respect” for their preposterous fantasies, the least they can do is demonstrate themselves what that respect looks like.

When you disrespect and degrade billions of people’s beliefs to say they should be civilized.

[Insaanistan]

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

Well said! Being religious is no excuse for uncivilised behaviour and it’s high time that religious people recognise that. These excuses should be given no more consideration than that of a five year old that demands special treatment for their imaginary friends that no-one else can see.

---

Should OP really be expected to respect the feeling of child rapists though?

Since religious people routinely demand that I show “respect” for their preposterous fantasies, the least they can do is demonstrate themselves what that respect looks like.

Because believing in God is obviously exactly like being a pedophile.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

When you disrespect and degrade billions of people’s beliefs to say they should be civilized.

Well, yes. When people, to reuse Page’s examples, keep children away from scientific healthcare for no good reason, put them through psychological torture to mold them into a good conservative, or - as is the topic of this thread - engage in pedophilia, I am going to call it uncivilised behaviour. I will not be deterred from doing so just because the motivation behind these things happen to be religious faith.

Neither should you - and isn’t denouncing child rape and marriage exactly the reason why you made this thread?

Unless your particular interpretation of Islam also happens to promote these sorts of brutish behaviour, I don’t see why you would find my policy position on this issue to be at all objectionable.

[Insaanistan]

When you disrespect and degrade billions of people’s beliefs to say they should be civilized.

Well, yes. When people, to reuse Page’s examples, keep children away from scientific healthcare for no good reason, put them through psychological torture to mood them into a good conservative, or - as is the topic of this thread - engage in pedophilia, I am going to call it uncivilised behaviour. I will not be deterred from doing so just because the motivation behind these things happen to be religious faith.

Neither should you - and isn’t denouncing child rape and marriage exactly the reason why you made this thread?

Unless your particular interpretation of Islam also happens to promote these sorts of brutish behaviour, I don’t see why you would find my policy position on this issue to be at all objectionable.

I take great issue with the fact you expect me to remove the quotes from “Muslim” when referring to this man. I’m only two years older than that little girl. I see my nieces and cousins (Christian AND Muslim) in that girl, and my blood boils to even think about what happened to her. Pedophilia is not endorsed in Islam (no, Aisha was not 6, she was 17-30; I’ll have an “e-sermon” in IDT on which Sahih Bukhari isn’t always correct sometime), and to group Muslims with this man is an insult.

[Aeritai]

I hope the girl recovers soon... No child should have to go through this. She will be in my prayers.

[Suriyanakhon]

When you disrespect and degrade billions of people’s beliefs to say they should be civilized.

Well, yes. When people, to reuse Page’s examples, keep children away from scientific healthcare for no good reason, put them through psychological torture to mold them into a good conservative, or - as is the topic of this thread - engage in pedophilia, I am going to call it uncivilised behaviour. I will not be deterred from doing so just because the motivation behind these things happen to be religious faith.

Neither should you - and isn’t denouncing child rape and marriage exactly the reason why you made this thread?

Unless your particular interpretation of Islam also happens to promote these sorts of brutish behaviour, I don’t see why you would find my policy position on this issue to be at all objectionable.

... you literally just criticized him for excluding this man from his interpretation of Islam.

What you want from him is really confusing, it sounds like you just want Insaanitan to stop being a Muslim. Which is weird.

[Insaanistan]

I hope the girl recovers soon... No child should have to go through this. She will be in my prayers.

Mine as well.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

... you literally just criticized him for excluding this man from his interpretation of Islam.

No, I have criticised him for refusing to recognise the perpetrators as Islamic just because they do not conform to his particular interpretation of Islam.

I do want people to stop being religious, but that would not be a reasonable thing for me to demand - freedom of conscience and all that.

[Insaanistan]

... you literally just criticized him for excluding this man from his interpretation of Islam.

No, I have criticised him for refusing to recognise the perpetrators as Islamic just because they do not conform to his particular interpretation of Islam.

I do want people to stop being religious, but that would not be a reasonable thing for me to demand - freedom of conscience and all that.

They aren’t Islamic, as people can’t be Islamic. They’re also munafiqoon.

[Kowani]

...
I’m Muslim.

This thread is an outstanding example of why I hardly ever engage on NSG any more: the automatic assumption that folks are ideologues operating in bad faith. This assumption is so strong that even when a devout Muslim is honest and courageous enough to point out an example of the sometimes-horrific treatment of religious minorities in Pakistan, most of the thread immediately either 1) jumps to the conclusion that he is engaged in an Islamophobic dog whistle, or 2) criticizes him for his (quite understandable) desire to distinguish his understanding of Islam from that of kidnappers and rapists. The notion that Insaanistan might be volunteering to recognize and critique, in good faith, a real-world problem that reflects poorly upon those who claim to share his faith - that is apparently inconceivable, because it would indicate a willingness to place truth above rhetorical point-scoring. And that, as we all know, simply doesn't happen on NSG.

and to the awesome quotes thread you go

[Insaanistan]

What does the religion of the perpetrator or the victim have to do with anything?

Quite a lot, religion is what lets people get away with child rape. In America when the feds raided the YFZ ranch, most of the men with child brides weren't even prosecuted, they only went after the leader. And it was known that these people had child brides for quite awhile.

If an adult rapes a child for non-religious reasons, he's in handcuffs in a nanosecond. Whether it's America or Pakistan, religious people get extra slack to abuse children. If a parent sends their kid to be tortured because they're mad the kid didn't clean their room, they go to jail instantly. But if they do it because their kid is gay and their God says they're not supposed to be, they get away with it.

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

There are religions against modern medicine?

[Aeritai]

Quite a lot, religion is what lets people get away with child rape. In America when the feds raided the YFZ ranch, most of the men with child brides weren't even prosecuted, they only went after the leader. And it was known that these people had child brides for quite awhile.

If an adult rapes a child for non-religious reasons, he's in handcuffs in a nanosecond. Whether it's America or Pakistan, religious people get extra slack to abuse children. If a parent sends their kid to be tortured because they're mad the kid didn't clean their room, they go to jail instantly. But if they do it because their kid is gay and their God says they're not supposed to be, they get away with it.

This isn't specifically a Muslim problem but it is a religion problem. It's time for society to stop making excuses. No more child marriage, no more genital mutilation, no more conversion therapy, no more letting your kid die of treatable illness because your religion doesn't believe in modern medicine.

The human rights of children greatly exceed their parents' religious freedom in importance.

There are religions against modern medicine?[/quote

Ever heard of the Anti-Vax movement? Some of them tend to be religious.

[Insaanistan]

There are religions against modern medicine?[/quote

Ever heard of the Anti-Vax movement? Some of them tend to be religious.

Well, to be fair, I don’t consider Klan members religious, even though they firmly believe in Christianity.