Christian Girl Rescued After Rape & Forced Marriage

[Sundiata]

This is a dogwhistle about as big as a foghorn.

EDIT: I made mistake.

[Kowani]

This is a dogwhistle about as big as a foghorn.

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

[Salus Maior]

This is a dogwhistle about as big as a foghorn.

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

[Kowani]

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

I think a lot of the time, that has to do with who brings it up.
Like, there is a metric fuckton of shit that Christians outside the west have to put up with that really needs to be addressed.
But often, at least in my experience, the very real suffering of those groups gets brought up to try and argue that Christians within the west are being persecuted (don’t ask me how the logic works, I don’t get it either) or to distract from a conversation about other religious minorities.
You have some…less than scrupulous people weaponizing actual suffering, and that’s a shame, because it makes it hard to have a conversation about what should actually be done-

[Salus Maior]

Anyway, on topic, I think what needs to be done in Pakistan to improve the quality of life for religious minorities is a dismantling of sharia law in Pakistan (ha, funny right?) and curtailing the power of imams to preach violence and hatred towards religious minorities.

Of course, there's no public will to do any of those things. So they're not going to happen.

[Salus Maior]

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

I think a lot of the time, that has to do with who brings it up.
Like, there is a metric fuckton of shit that Christians outside the west have to put up with that really needs to be addressed.
But often, at least in my experience, the very real suffering of those groups gets brought up to try and argue that Christians within the west are being persecuted (don’t ask me how the logic works, I don’t get it either) or to distract from a conversation about other religious minorities.
You have some…less than scrupulous people weaponizing actual suffering, and that’s a shame, because it makes it hard to have a conversation about what should actually be done-

I'd say you're right. The Western persecution narrative is harmful to Christians who are enduring real, tangible suffering elsewhere.

That being said, it's certainly not always easy to be a Christian in the secular west. But that's a topic I won't talk about here out of respect of the above sentiment.

[Picairn]

Fuck, this thread is a mess. Just because Christians in Western countries enjoy certain privileges doesn't mean that Christians in Muslim countries feel the same. The hierarchy of power differs from society to society, based on their histories and cultures.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

The fact that the OP put the words "Muslim" and "Islamicist" in quotation marks when there is no obvious reason why they ought to be so tells me that the OP may be suffering from the No-True-Scotsman syndrome.

You cannot pretend that the similarities between you and some other group of people doesn't exist just because you find the ways in which they differ to be objectionable.

[Sundiata]

This is a dogwhistle about as big as a foghorn.

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

Come on, one of the two listed sources was the Daily Mail.

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

I just doubt that the central issue of this story is Islam. Are Christians persecuted throughout the world? Yes.

But how do we know that this abuse was religiously motivated?

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

But how do we know that this abuse was religiously motivated?

If the most significant difference between the persecutors and the persecuted is which set of ancient literature they worship, it's probably safe to say that the persecution is religious even if the nominal reason given for it is not.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Rape is rape, religion or not. Religion may have had a role, but emphasising the religion of the perpetrator reads like another one of those "Muslims are evil" posts.

[Nejii]

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

They don't. That and they are too busy trying to stand up for the "globally persecuted Muslim minority".

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Rape is rape, religion or not. Religion may have had a role, but emphasising the religion of the perpetrator reads like another one of those "Muslims are evil" posts.

Well, sure, rape is rape, and it's morally detestable regardless of why and how it happens.

But if we are interested in reducing rape, then it helps to examine why rapes happen (in that particular social and cultural context, of course) and see what we can do about those causes. There's nothing wrong with saying that rape is bad - it's true and basically nobody will say otherwise - but saying so doesn't tell us anything about how to rid society of this bad thing.

[Risottia]

What does the religion of the perpetrator or the victim have to do with anything?

In Pakistan, a lot.
There are elements in Pakistani laws, traditions and society that create a strong discrimination against non-Muslims while favouring Muslims a lot. Take blasphemy laws or apostasy laws as example.

[Molither]

A lot of countries like this need a dictator who enforces secularism and modernisation


If you want to look at an example of a benevolent dictator, look at Lee Kuan Yew who ruled over Singapore and took it from a third world country to a first world one in a generation. He also strictly enforced secularism to prevent different religious and ethnic groups from persecuting each other.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Rape is rape, religion or not. Religion may have had a role, but emphasising the religion of the perpetrator reads like another one of those "Muslims are evil" posts.

Well, sure, rape is rape, and it's morally detestable regardless of why and how it happens.

But if we are interested in reducing rape, then it helps to examine why rapes happen (in that particular social and cultural contexts, of course) and see what we can do about those causes. There's nothing wrong with saying that rape is bad - it's true and basically nobody will say otherwise - but saying so doesn't tell us anything about how to rid society of this bad thing.

Whilst rape in this instance might have been religiously motivated, rape occurs for a multitude of reasons, and can occur amongst different sects of the population. A common recurring factor is a sense of power from the rapist, a show of strength.

Also, let's be real, rape can affect everyone. Most of all, it impacts women. Sexual violence against women is still a major problem, as is the same against men. However, most if not all women have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment, rape, violence or just being made to feel uncomfortable.

Whilst we can pinpoint causes in each case to address, the answer in this case should not be to abolish religion and - I dunno if OP is dogwhistling - abolish Islam. As far as I know, even if there are verses advocating for this action, I don't really see or hear Muslims on a regular basis doing this.

A lot of it may have to do with mental health, as the below study/article suggests:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... o=0.555556

Bearing in mind it is specific to India and a couple years old, I have a more recent one.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5220302014

[Insaanistan]

...
You guys know I’m a devout Muslim, right?

[Insaanistan]

The fact that the OP put the words "Muslim" and "Islamicist" in quotation marks when there is no obvious reason why they ought to be so tells me that the OP may be suffering from the No-True-Scotsman syndrome.

You cannot pretend that the similarities between you and some other group of people doesn't exist just because you find the ways in which they differ to be objectionable.

Considering rape and violence against innocents (including based of of religion) are explicitly prohibited in Islam... it’s less a No True Scotsman fallacy and more the fact I know the scriptures.

[Adamede]

...No.

In the Christian tradition, it's typical that they'd be confirmed by then.

That's creepy. Seriously, child abuse creepy. But you do your tradition I guess.

Most of our values and beliefs are passed down to us by our parents, no matter who you are.

[Insaanistan]

Rape is rape, religion or not. Religion may have had a role, but emphasising the religion of the perpetrator reads like another one of those "Muslims are evil" posts.

...
I’m Muslim.

[Reverend Norv]

Rape is rape, religion or not. Religion may have had a role, but emphasising the religion of the perpetrator reads like another one of those "Muslims are evil" posts.

...
I’m Muslim.

This thread is an outstanding example of why I hardly ever engage on NSG any more: the automatic assumption that folks are ideologues operating in bad faith. This assumption is so strong that even when a devout Muslim is honest and courageous enough to point out an example of the sometimes-horrific treatment of religious minorities in Pakistan, most of the thread immediately either 1) jumps to the conclusion that he is engaged in an Islamophobic dog whistle, or 2) criticizes him for his (quite understandable) desire to distinguish his understanding of Islam from that of kidnappers and rapists. The notion that Insaanistan might be volunteering to recognize and critique, in good faith, a real-world problem that reflects poorly upon those who claim to share his faith - that is apparently inconceivable, because it would indicate a willingness to place truth above rhetorical point-scoring. And that, as we all know, simply doesn't happen on NSG.

[The Marlborough]

I feel like accusing Insaanistan of dog whistling about Muslims is a bit misguided

Come on, one of the two listed sources was the Daily Mail.

I'm convinced that people in the West are just programmed to ignore the plight of Christian minorities in countries where they are actively persecuted.

It's almost as if people don't understand that our status of privilege is not the same as privilege in other countries.

I just doubt that the central issue of this story is Islam. Are Christians persecuted throughout the world? Yes.

But how do we know that this abuse was religiously motivated?

Just because it was the DM doesn't mean it's wrong inherently.

Because they are a persecuted minority and thus are targeted disproportionately?


Man some of y'all are fucking unreal especially since it is a devout Muslim who is bringing up the story/issue.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

No child should have to endure such horrors. I pray she recovers from the ordeal.

[Salus Maior]

The fact that the OP put the words "Muslim" and "Islamicist" in quotation marks when there is no obvious reason why they ought to be so tells me that the OP may be suffering from the No-True-Scotsman syndrome.

You cannot pretend that the similarities between you and some other group of people doesn't exist just because you find the ways in which they differ to be objectionable.

I think Insaan's practice and perception of Islam is very different from those of Imams in Pakistan.

Which is fine and valid, I mean, I have some extraordinary differences with a number of Catholic clergy. Still Catholic.

[Salus Maior]

...
I’m Muslim.

This thread is an outstanding example of why I hardly ever engage on NSG any more: the automatic assumption that folks are ideologues operating in bad faith. This assumption is so strong that even when a devout Muslim is honest and courageous enough to point out an example of the sometimes-horrific treatment of religious minorities in Pakistan, most of the thread immediately either 1) jumps to the conclusion that he is engaged in an Islamophobic dog whistle, or 2) criticizes him for his (quite understandable) desire to distinguish his understanding of Islam from that of kidnappers and rapists. The notion that Insaanistan might be volunteering to recognize and critique, in good faith, a real-world problem that reflects poorly upon those who claim to share his faith - that is apparently inconceivable, because it would indicate a willingness to place truth above rhetorical point-scoring. And that, as we all know, simply doesn't happen on NSG.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Norv.