American Politics III: New President, Same Old Country

[Freiheit Reich]

Singapore and Malaysia cane criminals. Don't act like it is a brutal punishment when two nations considered quite civilized do it. You act like I am an extremist.

Caning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning#Ju ... punishment

In Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei, healthy males under 50 years of age can be sentenced to a maximum of 24 strokes of the rotan (rattan) cane on the bare buttocks; the punishment is mandatory for many offences, mostly violent or drug crimes, but also immigration violations, sexual offences and (in Singapore) acts of vandalism. It is also imposed for certain breaches of prison rules.

Don't give a shit. You advocated it in the US.

It is better than sending prisoners to be raped and beaten by their fellow convicts as most Americans seem to think is acceptable. I also said that prisons need to be safer.

[Kowani]

torture works
at getting you useless info

I’d like evidence of this. Preferably not something written by a Berkeley psychology professor or a hack writer for The New York Times.

Here, short version.

Book in more detail, though you'll have to purchase it yourself

[Nejii]

While I find it disgusting torture does work. A skilled interrogator can get nearly anyone to break. Nearly everyone has a limit that they can’t stretch beyond.

torture works
at getting you useless info

“Tell me X or I will blind, scorch, castrate, flay, and waterboard you for hours. Not in that order.”

Victim refuses.

*Torture begins.*

At their breaking point the victim will divulge anything to end the pain. An experienced interrogative torturer will exploit and weave their interrogation through this tunnel of pain, perhaps even rewarding correct answers with small “breaks”. Perhaps you can accuse the victim of lying or holding out amidst the torture. When the victim vehemently protests this as the truth simply on the promise of ending their torment you know they are either lying and trying hard to sell this lie or they are indeed telling the truth.

Isolate them for a time, accuse them of lying again, and begin the process all over again. Granted this is a very labored outline I’m giving, but humans are fragile creatures and on average value their lives and bodies. A skilled interrogative torturer can break and milk anyone for information and get what they need and perhaps more.

[Nejii]

I’d like evidence of this. Preferably not something written by a Berkeley psychology professor or a hack writer for The New York Times.

Here, short version.

Book in more detail, though you'll have to purchase it yourself

Reading away.

[Heloin]

torture works
at getting you useless info

“Tell me X or I will blind, scorch, castrate, flay, and waterboard you for hours. Not in that order.”

Victim refuses.

*Torture begins.*

At their breaking point the victim will divulge anything to end the pain. An experienced interrogative torturer will exploit and weave their interrogation through this tunnel of pain, perhaps even rewarding correct answers with small “breaks”. Perhaps you can accuse the victim of lying or holding out amidst the torture. When the victim vehemently protests this as the truth simply on the promise of ending their torment you know they are either lying and trying hard to sell this lie or they are indeed telling the truth.

Isolate them for a time, accuse them of lying again, and begin the process all over again. Granted this is a very labored outline I’m giving, but humans are fragile creatures and on average value their lives and bodies. An skilled interrogative torturer can break abs milk anyone for information and get what they need and perhaps more.

It's apt that you refer to them as a victim because all you're doing is explaining a sadistic fantasy and pretending there is justification behind it.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

How is wanting to allow businesses to discriminate against customers racist?

Look, bro. I used to be on the side of the "they can just go somewhere else" mentality.

But then I realized libertarianism is stupid and bigotry needs to be actively erased from society.

[Nejii]

“Tell me X or I will blind, scorch, castrate, flay, and waterboard you for hours. Not in that order.”

Victim refuses.

*Torture begins.*

At their breaking point the victim will divulge anything to end the pain. An experienced interrogative torturer will exploit and weave their interrogation through this tunnel of pain, perhaps even rewarding correct answers with small “breaks”. Perhaps you can accuse the victim of lying or holding out amidst the torture. When the victim vehemently protests this as the truth simply on the promise of ending their torment you know they are either lying and trying hard to sell this lie or they are indeed telling the truth.

Isolate them for a time, accuse them of lying again, and begin the process all over again. Granted this is a very labored outline I’m giving, but humans are fragile creatures and on average value their lives and bodies. An skilled interrogative torturer can break abs milk anyone for information and get what they need and perhaps more.

It's apt that you refer to them as a victim because all you're doing is explaining a sadistic fantasy and pretending there is justification behind it.

That I am not. I’m arguing my case. Don’t be so squeamish.

[Necroghastia]

Don't give a shit. You advocated it in the US.

It is better than sending prisoners to be raped and beaten by their fellow convicts as most Americans seem to think is acceptable. I also said that prisons need to be safer.

It's better to be raped and beaten by the authorities than other inmates, is what you're saying.
Why the fuck hasn't it crossed your mind to have neither?

[Gravlen]

torture works
at getting you useless info

I’d like evidence of this. Preferably not something written by a Berkeley psychology professor or a hack writer for The New York Times.

What about what an FBI interrogator?

In the middle of my interrogation of the high-ranking terrorist Abu Zubaydah at a black-site prison 12 years ago, my intelligence work wasn’t just cut short for so-called enhanced interrogation techniques to begin. After I left the black site, those who took over left, too – for 47 days. For personal time and to “confer with headquarters”.

For nearly the entire summer of 2002, Abu Zubaydah was kept in isolation. That was valuable lost time, and that doesn’t square with claims about the “ticking bomb scenarios” that were the basis for America’s enhanced interrogation program, or with the commitment to getting life-saving, actionable intelligence from valuable detainees. The techniques were justified by those who said Zubaydah “stopped all cooperation” around the time my fellow FBI agent and I left. If Zubaydah was in isolation the whole time, that’s not really a surprise.

One of the hardest things we struggled to make sense of, back then, was why US officials were authorizing harsh techniques when our interrogations were working and their harsh techniques weren’t. The answer, as the long-awaited Senate Intelligence Committee report now makes clear, is that the architects of the program were taking credit for our success, from the unmasking of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind of 9/11 to the uncovering of the “dirty bomber” Jose Padilla. The claims made by government officials for years about the efficacy of “enhanced interrogation”, in secret memos and in public, are false. “Enhanced interrogation” doesn’t work.

It’s maddening enough to learn that while we were working around the clock and often under dangerous circumstances, from Yemen to Afghanistan, the “enhanced” interrogators took the weeks off from interrogating the only high-value detainee in American custody. And the entire Senate report makes for painful reading. But not just because of the new details on the futility of those techniques and the orchestrated campaign of deception and lies told about their efficiency. The hardest part about the report is what it doesn’t answer: How do we prevent this from happening again?

At the time, I witnessed some CIA officials objecting to what was happening – and I watched them leave. What I learned from the report is that so many more officials were objecting to harsh interrogations through their official channels – they were just ignored. Memos in the report show that those responsible “marginalized and ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and objections concerning the operation and management of the CIA’s Detention and Interrogation Program”. The report says that tears were shed, and knowing the officials who shed them, I know those were tears over lost time and lost intelligence – and lost American values.

Those responsible for the program have tried to portray this as a CIA-versus-FBI matter, or as a debate between those who will do whatever it takes to defend the homeland versus those with softer hearts. The reality is that these techniques endangered our homeland. They didn’t work. We lost valuable time – years of time. Intelligence that could have been gained wasn’t. And plots that could have been stopped weren’t.

The sad truth is that today there are more people around the world who follow the ideology Osama bin Laden espoused than there were before 9/11. America’s turn to the dark side damaged our reputation and played into our enemy’s narrative.

The responses in defense of the program are predictable. Those at the top who authorized the program, or who didn’t do the do diligence they should have, are defensive because they are embarrassed – and they should be. They really owe an apology to the American people.

The 2014 Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture showed that the CIA was mismanaged, used counterproductive methods of intelligence gathering, and actually put the US at greater risk by using torture. The methods used shuts down valuable and working routes of intelligence gathering, creates threats against the US, and draws resources away from real threats in order to chase non-existing ones. The report shows that the actions of the CIA impeded the work of other agencies trying to keep America safe from terrorism.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Don't give a shit. You advocated it in the US.

It is better than sending prisoners to be raped and beaten by their fellow convicts as most Americans seem to think is acceptable. I also said that prisons need to be safer.

Can you even partake in a single debate without goalpost shifting or strawmanning? Honestly?

[Nejii]

I’d like evidence of this. Preferably not something written by a Berkeley psychology professor or a hack writer for The New York Times.

What about what an FBI interrogator?

In the middle of my interrogation of the high-ranking terrorist Abu Zubaydah at a black-site prison 12 years ago, my intelligence work wasn’t just cut short for so-called enhanced interrogation techniques to begin. After I left the black site, those who took over left, too – for 47 days. For personal time and to “confer with headquarters”.

For nearly the entire summer of 2002, Abu Zubaydah was kept in isolation. That was valuable lost time, and that doesn’t square with claims about the “ticking bomb scenarios” that were the basis for America’s enhanced interrogation program, or with the commitment to getting life-saving, actionable intelligence from valuable detainees. The techniques were justified by those who said Zubaydah “stopped all cooperation” around the time my fellow FBI agent and I left. If Zubaydah was in isolation the whole time, that’s not really a surprise.

One of the hardest things we struggled to make sense of, back then, was why US officials were authorizing harsh techniques when our interrogations were working and their harsh techniques weren’t. The answer, as the long-awaited Senate Intelligence Committee report now makes clear, is that the architects of the program were taking credit for our success, from the unmasking of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind of 9/11 to the uncovering of the “dirty bomber” Jose Padilla. The claims made by government officials for years about the efficacy of “enhanced interrogation”, in secret memos and in public, are false. “Enhanced interrogation” doesn’t work.

It’s maddening enough to learn that while we were working around the clock and often under dangerous circumstances, from Yemen to Afghanistan, the “enhanced” interrogators took the weeks off from interrogating the only high-value detainee in American custody. And the entire Senate report makes for painful reading. But not just because of the new details on the futility of those techniques and the orchestrated campaign of deception and lies told about their efficiency. The hardest part about the report is what it doesn’t answer: How do we prevent this from happening again?

At the time, I witnessed some CIA officials objecting to what was happening – and I watched them leave. What I learned from the report is that so many more officials were objecting to harsh interrogations through their official channels – they were just ignored. Memos in the report show that those responsible “marginalized and ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and objections concerning the operation and management of the CIA’s Detention and Interrogation Program”. The report says that tears were shed, and knowing the officials who shed them, I know those were tears over lost time and lost intelligence – and lost American values.

Those responsible for the program have tried to portray this as a CIA-versus-FBI matter, or as a debate between those who will do whatever it takes to defend the homeland versus those with softer hearts. The reality is that these techniques endangered our homeland. They didn’t work. We lost valuable time – years of time. Intelligence that could have been gained wasn’t. And plots that could have been stopped weren’t.

The sad truth is that today there are more people around the world who follow the ideology Osama bin Laden espoused than there were before 9/11. America’s turn to the dark side damaged our reputation and played into our enemy’s narrative.

The responses in defense of the program are predictable. Those at the top who authorized the program, or who didn’t do the do diligence they should have, are defensive because they are embarrassed – and they should be. They really owe an apology to the American people.

The 2014 Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture showed that the CIA was mismanaged, used counterproductive methods of intelligence gathering, and actually put the US at greater risk by using torture. The methods used shuts down valuable and working routes of intelligence gathering, creates threats against the US, and draws resources away from real threats in order to chase non-existing ones. The report shows that the actions of the CIA impeded the work of other agencies trying to keep America safe from terrorism.

Reading away!

[Comerciante]

It is better than sending prisoners to be raped and beaten by their fellow convicts as most Americans seem to think is acceptable. I also said that prisons need to be safer.

Can you even partake in a single debate without goalpost shifting or strawmanning? Honestly?

We've got enough straw to start a dairy farm but the cows keep getting out.

[Kowani]

New Mexico County Commissioner charged for storming the Capitol

they were arrested after going back to DC
fucking geniuses

[Heloin]

It's apt that you refer to them as a victim because all you're doing is explaining a sadistic fantasy and pretending there is justification behind it.

That I am not. I’m arguing my case. Don’t be so squeamish.

No, you're telling us about a sadistic fantasy. We don't need to read it.

Torture has never, and will never work. If you think torture works you're then you're creating a fantasy to justify it.

[Gravlen]

What about what an FBI interrogator?

In the middle of my interrogation of the high-ranking terrorist Abu Zubaydah at a black-site prison 12 years ago, my intelligence work wasn’t just cut short for so-called enhanced interrogation techniques to begin. After I left the black site, those who took over left, too – for 47 days. For personal time and to “confer with headquarters”.

For nearly the entire summer of 2002, Abu Zubaydah was kept in isolation. That was valuable lost time, and that doesn’t square with claims about the “ticking bomb scenarios” that were the basis for America’s enhanced interrogation program, or with the commitment to getting life-saving, actionable intelligence from valuable detainees. The techniques were justified by those who said Zubaydah “stopped all cooperation” around the time my fellow FBI agent and I left. If Zubaydah was in isolation the whole time, that’s not really a surprise.

One of the hardest things we struggled to make sense of, back then, was why US officials were authorizing harsh techniques when our interrogations were working and their harsh techniques weren’t. The answer, as the long-awaited Senate Intelligence Committee report now makes clear, is that the architects of the program were taking credit for our success, from the unmasking of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the mastermind of 9/11 to the uncovering of the “dirty bomber” Jose Padilla. The claims made by government officials for years about the efficacy of “enhanced interrogation”, in secret memos and in public, are false. “Enhanced interrogation” doesn’t work.

It’s maddening enough to learn that while we were working around the clock and often under dangerous circumstances, from Yemen to Afghanistan, the “enhanced” interrogators took the weeks off from interrogating the only high-value detainee in American custody. And the entire Senate report makes for painful reading. But not just because of the new details on the futility of those techniques and the orchestrated campaign of deception and lies told about their efficiency. The hardest part about the report is what it doesn’t answer: How do we prevent this from happening again?

At the time, I witnessed some CIA officials objecting to what was happening – and I watched them leave. What I learned from the report is that so many more officials were objecting to harsh interrogations through their official channels – they were just ignored. Memos in the report show that those responsible “marginalized and ignored numerous internal critiques, criticisms, and objections concerning the operation and management of the CIA’s Detention and Interrogation Program”. The report says that tears were shed, and knowing the officials who shed them, I know those were tears over lost time and lost intelligence – and lost American values.

Those responsible for the program have tried to portray this as a CIA-versus-FBI matter, or as a debate between those who will do whatever it takes to defend the homeland versus those with softer hearts. The reality is that these techniques endangered our homeland. They didn’t work. We lost valuable time – years of time. Intelligence that could have been gained wasn’t. And plots that could have been stopped weren’t.

The sad truth is that today there are more people around the world who follow the ideology Osama bin Laden espoused than there were before 9/11. America’s turn to the dark side damaged our reputation and played into our enemy’s narrative.

The responses in defense of the program are predictable. Those at the top who authorized the program, or who didn’t do the do diligence they should have, are defensive because they are embarrassed – and they should be. They really owe an apology to the American people.

The 2014 Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture showed that the CIA was mismanaged, used counterproductive methods of intelligence gathering, and actually put the US at greater risk by using torture. The methods used shuts down valuable and working routes of intelligence gathering, creates threats against the US, and draws resources away from real threats in order to chase non-existing ones. The report shows that the actions of the CIA impeded the work of other agencies trying to keep America safe from terrorism.

Reading away!

Good.

Don't forget these:

A skilled interrogator can get nearly anyone to break. A skilled torturer don't, because torture doesn't work.

[Omniabstracta]

torture works
at getting you useless info

“Tell me X or I will blind, scorch, castrate, flay, and waterboard you for hours. Not in that order.”

Victim refuses.

*Torture begins.*

At their breaking point the victim will divulge anything to end the pain. An experienced interrogative torturer will exploit and weave their interrogation through this tunnel of pain, perhaps even rewarding correct answers with small “breaks”. Perhaps you can accuse the victim of lying or holding out amidst the torture. When the victim vehemently protests this as the truth simply on the promise of ending their torment you know they are either lying and trying hard to sell this lie or they are indeed telling the truth.

Isolate them for a time, accuse them of lying again, and begin the process all over again. Granted this is a very labored outline I’m giving, but humans are fragile creatures and on average value their lives and bodies. A skilled interrogative torturer can break and milk anyone for information and get what they need and perhaps more.

Exactly, they will divulge anything. It doesn’t matter if it’s true, it doesn’t matter if it’s helpful, they will tell you an answer that you want to hear and eventually they will earnestly believe whatever they’re being made to say because it makes the pain stop. When you push that hard for “the truth,” the “truth” becomes the thing you’re expecting to find out and no amount of pushing will reveal otherwise.

And if you want sources, there are three rather nice ones on the previous page which you clearly should have read, instead of writing whatever the fuck power fantasy this is.

[Xanthal]

A dumb suggestion from Comey. No, Trump should not get a pardon.

I still say that impeaching Trump reads more like an exercise in pettiness than principle at this point. Frankly, Biden has more to gain by pardoning him than he does to lose. Trump will still be defending himself in state courts for years, and let's be honest- does anyone really expect a federal investigation to put him behind bars? Trump has woven a victim narrative from the beginning. That narrative propelled him to power and built his cult. Why feeding that narrative is going to result in dismantling Trumpism now is something no one has yet been able to explain to me.

[Nejii]

Reading away!

Good.

Don't forget these:

A skilled interrogator can get nearly anyone to break. A skilled torturer don't, because torture doesn't work.

Despite my passionate arguments I am willing to hear out articles and opinions that go against my own stances.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

A dumb suggestion from Comey. No, Trump should not get a pardon.

I still say that impeaching Trump reads more like an exercise in pettiness than principle at this point. Frankly, Biden has more to gain by pardoning him than he does to lose. Trump will still be defending himself in state courts for years, and let's be honest- does anyone really expect a federal investigation to put him behind bars? Trump has woven a victim narrative from the beginning. That narrative propelled him to power and built his cult. Why feeding that narrative is going to result in dismantling Trumpism now is something no one has yet been able to explain to me.

The objective is to keep the bastard out of office--any office--for the rest of his miserable life. If he actually sees jail time I'll be fucking ecstatic.

[Jerzylvania]

New Mexico County Commissioner charged for storming the Capitol

they were arrested after going back to DC
fucking geniuses

I mean he is the founder of an organization called “Cowboys for Trump" so how smart can he be?

[Kowani]

Sen. Angus King (I-ME) says Trump should be cut off from intelligence briefings, says there's a "grave danger" of Trump revealing classified information if he receives briefings after leaving office.

[Fartsniffage]

While I have no real interest in getting involved with this debate. If torture or enhanced interrogation doesn't work, why do Western nations train their special forces or other people liable to be captured by the enemy, to resist it?

[Esalia]

A dumb suggestion from Comey. No, Trump should not get a pardon.

I still say that impeaching Trump reads more like an exercise in pettiness than principle at this point. Frankly, Biden has more to gain by pardoning him than he does to lose. Trump will still be defending himself in state courts for years, and let's be honest- does anyone really expect a federal investigation to put him behind bars? Trump has woven a victim narrative from the beginning. That narrative propelled him to power and built his cult. Why feeding that narrative is going to result in dismantling Trumpism now is something no one has yet been able to explain to me.

I believe that a conviction comes with Trump being barred from office.

Plus, even if we decide not to impeach, we absolutely should not pardon him. Nothing will embolden him and people like him more than a free pass saying "it's okay if you try to coup the government!".

And every single action you do will embolden the Trump cult. That's the thing with victim narratives, nothing short of total surrender is free from being twisted to support the narrative. Conviction will support the narrative. Not convicting won't stop the narrative. Surrendering lets them win. There's no option that stops the victim narrative other than letting them win, and I'd rather we stop Trump from ever holding office ever again than let him off the hook.

[Freiheit Reich]

How is wanting to allow businesses to discriminate against customers racist?

Look, bro. I used to be on the side of the "they can just go somewhere else" mentality.

But then I realized libertarianism is stupid and bigotry needs to be actively erased from society.

Why? People should have the right to be bigots. Do you want to force people to have the same opinion as you? What about someone that might have a reason to dislike another group? Imagine someone who lived in Nanjing and was raped by Japanese soldiers during the Nanjing Massacre. Should that person be forced to serve Japanese customers if they enter her store? What about a man who had a wife raped and tortured and killed by a group of white men? Should that business owner be forced to serve white men? People have different life experiences and may have a reason for being bigots.

Discourage bigotry but don't regulate it (at least for private businesses).

You are an idealist but idealism can be dangerous. I think about young idealistic students in 1960's China that beat their teachers and beat monks for not being communist enough. These students just loved their nation and wanted the teachers and monks to think like them and support Maoist thoughts. They were idealistic but tyrannical as well.

Fifty years on, one of Mao’s ‘little generals’ exposes horror of the Cultural Revolution

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... revolution

[San Lumen]

New Mexico County Commissioner charged for storming the Capitol

they were arrested after going back to DC
fucking geniuses

Wow! How many elected officials where involved? The slow drip continues and likely will for months.