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Is chivalry good

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Pyatzvezkie
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Postby Pyatzvezkie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:02 am

This reminds me of a time where I was carrying a bunch of items in my arms and kicked the store door opened to get out, and I almost hit someone else

TDLR: We need to make teleportation technology so opening doors becomes a thing of the past or... Just install automatic doors on all stores I guess

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Pyatzvezkie
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Postby Pyatzvezkie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 am

Pyatzvezkie wrote:This reminds me of a time where I was carrying a bunch of items in my arms and kicked the store door opened to get out, and I almost hit someone else

TDLR: We need to make teleportation technology so opening doors becomes a thing of the past or... Just install automatic doors on all stores I guess

This was honestly an excuse to say this story

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Uan aa Boa
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:11 am

Imperium Latine wrote:
Uan aa Boa wrote:Do you think that in the same way a female athlete or bodybuilder should protect a skinny guy who never works out and is less physically strong? Should she open doors for him and give up her seat on the bus? Offer to walk him home in case he gets mugged?

In general... Learn how to read.

I can read fine thanks. Will you be answering the question?

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:21 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Well, OP raised a point about natural law. It raises the question, "How should men and women treat one another in that context?" That's interesting stuff.

Though, you do "usually" consider this, don't you?

Not in detail, no.
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:43 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Imperium Latine wrote:In general women are less physically strong than men, as such men should protect them (as we should children and the elderly) when needed...

Do you think that in the same way a female athlete or bodybuilder should protect a skinny guy who never works out and is less physically strong? Should she open doors for him and give up her seat on the bus? Offer to walk him home in case he gets mugged?

Maybe but he should also protect her. She worked hard in spite of it being harder for her (as a woman) to be strong she should have not lose her status as a result of her hard work.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:54 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Chivalry here means men protecting women in a way that involves treating them differently to other men.
My opinion
I think chivalry is good because it follows natural law and Islamic law, because it benefits both men and women and because women have a harder time in some areas (due to a range of factors ranging from patriarchy to biology)

That’s pretty dumb.

Just be nice to people regardless of their sex goddamit.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:56 am

Adamede wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Chivalry here means men protecting women in a way that involves treating them differently to other men.
My opinion
I think chivalry is good because it follows natural law and Islamic law, because it benefits both men and women and because women have a harder time in some areas (due to a range of factors ranging from patriarchy to biology)

That’s pretty dumb.

Just be nice to people regardless of their sex goddamit.

A person can be nice and chivalrous.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:58 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Female serfs, though, aren't even people. They're fair game for the chivalrous nobility.

This alleged right, though, was only documented -- in period -- by Gerald of Aurillac who was angling for Sainthood (and claimed a miracle happened to save the serf).

While so-called chivalrous knights were a marauding bunch in general (and can't be said to have been very courteous), the female serfs are much disputed by history.

You're thinking of the ius primae noctis, which is likely a legend.
I'm thinking of "just run down the fuckers with the cavalry, who cares about serfs and non-nobles anyway".
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:59 am

The other day I gave a ride to a woman who showed up at my door claiming her car had broken down, her ex-husband was abusing her daughter and she needed to get to a bus stop. Turns out she was homeless and on the lam from the cops who were trying to serve her with a restraining order to stay away from a neighbor.

Did I treat her differently from the way I would have treated a large Black man pounding on my door with the same kind of story? Most likely yes.

Chivalry imo means caring for the weak and disadvantaged; to the extent anyone, regardless of gender, is disadvantaged they should be treated with special care.

So all you chivalrous people out there, how do you feel about treating racial minorities differently because they have been disadvantaged, i.e. affirmative action? Or are you only chivalrous toward people you want to assert a power relationship over to your own advantage? hmmm?
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:10 am

No.

I treat men and women equally.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:12 am

I don't know. If chivalry just means basic respect, kindness and open communication between a man and his significant other, then I'm all for it. But I feel that a lot of weird, kinda neckbeard types often conflate it with this sort of antiquated set of gender roles that, frankly, creep women out more than flatter them, y'know? I think that distinction is important.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:30 am

Sundiata wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Though, you do "usually" consider this, don't you?

Not in detail, no.

I find it more than slightly disingenuous an act to cut my full reply down to that one line.

Here it is again in full, for your ease:
The Free Joy State wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Well, OP raised a point about natural law. It raises the question, "How should men and women treat one another in that context?" That's interesting stuff.

Though, you do "usually" consider this, don't you? You didn't just consider this due to the OP, you were discussing this yesterday, even saying "yes" when asked -- if opening the door for a man (not a dainty, helpless ikkle woman -- my words and heavy sarcasm) -- if you'd open the door and just push out in front. You consider this a lot, it seems.

So, it appears you think it's okay to treat men rather shabbily.

That doesn't seem very courteous, or respectful.

Which is why chivalry is a load of shit. It discourages respect for both sexes (treating one as pathetic and the other as worthless).

Perhaps you would like to explore the point I raised about the implicit lack of respect towards men, implied by the linked post, and answer why you appear to think reciprocal respect (of the kind that does not devalue both sexes) between the sexes is not better?
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:42 am

Good lord, the bloodshed in the name of "honor"...

Well they’d stop brutalising black women.
Maybe the chivalric value of courage would stop them shooting unarmed black men because they’re “soo scared.”
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:43 am

The Free Joy State wrote:I find it more than slightly disingenuous an act to cut my full reply down to that one line.
Don't. I was just getting to the point. I'll respond to the rest later.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:46 am

Sundiata wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:I find it more than slightly disingenuous an act to cut my full reply down to that one line.
Don't. I was just getting to the point. I'll respond to the rest later.

Or just wait until you are able and respond to the whole thing, rather than leaving out the important points raised -- as I note you have done again. :eyebrow:
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:50 am

The Holy Therns wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:I’m trying to be nice to you, sweetie.


...Am I on Mad Men? Is this an episode of Mad Men?

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:He’s agreeing with you.


He's agreeing with what part? My disapproval of his views or my clarification that his response was completely off the mark?

Why do you disapprove of my views?
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The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:52 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Don't. I was just getting to the point. I'll respond to the rest later.

Or just wait until you are able and respond to the whole thing, rather than leaving out the important points raised -- as I note you have done again. :eyebrow:

It's better that I reply concisely, less time.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:54 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Well, OP raised a point about natural law. It raises the question, "How should men and women treat one another in that context?" That's interesting stuff.

Though, you do "usually" consider this, don't you? You didn't just consider this due to the OP, you were discussing this yesterday, even saying "yes" when asked -- if opening the door for a man (not a dainty, helpless ikkle woman -- my words and heavy sarcasm) -- if you'd open the door and just push out in front. You consider this a lot, it seems.

So, it appears you think it's okay to treat men rather shabbily.

That doesn't seem very courteous, or respectful.

Which is why chivalry is a load of shit. It discourages respect for both sexes (treating one as pathetic and the other as worthless).

To add, my response yesterday was a question. Not an affirmation. I was initially unsure of what I was being asked.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:57 am

Sundiata wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Or just wait until you are able and respond to the whole thing, rather than leaving out the important points raised -- as I note you have done again. :eyebrow:

It's better that I reply concisely, less time.

If you have no wish to engage with the points I make, you don't need to reply to my posts. Ignore them, if debating my arguments will take up a lot of time or be something you don't enjoy.

But to crop all bar the easy little opening lines that ignore the meat of the post (the more difficult moral queries), as I note you tend to do, is a disingenuous action, and I am within my right to call out such actions.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:00 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:
Sundiata wrote:It's better that I reply concisely, less time.

If you have no wish to engage with the points I make, you don't need to reply to my posts. Ignore them, if debating my arguments will take up a lot of time or be something you don't enjoy.

But to crop all bar the easy little opening lines that ignore the meat of the post (the more difficult moral queries), as I note you tend to) is a disingenuous action, and I am within my right to call out such actions.

Ok, understood.
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Pyatzvezkie
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Corporate Police State

Postby Pyatzvezkie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:03 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:The other day I gave a ride to a woman who showed up at my door claiming her car had broken down, her ex-husband was abusing her daughter and she needed to get to a bus stop. Turns out she was homeless and on the lam from the cops who were trying to serve her with a restraining order to stay away from a neighbor.

Did I treat her differently from the way I would have treated a large Black man pounding on my door with the same kind of story? Most likely yes.

Chivalry imo means caring for the weak and disadvantaged; to the extent anyone, regardless of gender, is disadvantaged they should be treated with special care.

So all you chivalrous people out there, how do you feel about treating racial minorities differently because they have been disadvantaged, i.e. affirmative action? Or are you only chivalrous toward people you want to assert a power relationship over to your own advantage? hmmm?

I'm sorry but I'm more curious on how you found out she was a criminal, could you pls tell?

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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:05 pm

Being nice to people is good. Doing things someone doesn't want you to do because you have weird ideas about duty often isn't good. Stop overthinking this shit and just behave like a normal human being in the context of your environment please
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Postby Thepeopl » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:07 pm

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Chivalry here means men protecting women in a way that involves treating them differently to other men.
My opinion
I think chivalry is good because it follows natural law and Islamic law, because it benefits both men and women and because women have a harder time in some areas (due to a range of factors ranging from patriarchy to biology)

Your "chivalry" is a load of BS.
As a student, I always insisted on seeing my date to the door. Me being the smallest female of the group. The boys did appreciate my protection of their safety.
I will help anyone I can, will protect anyone who needs it and will be polite, hold doors and give way regardless of sex, age or physical beauty.

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Kandorith
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Postby Kandorith » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:12 pm

Chivalry is BS, I tend to hold the door for any one; it's called being attentive/kind. It's not a duty or a "code of honour" it's simply being a good human being.

Chivalry is a medieval idea which belongs in medieval times and not in modern times. In general at the end of the day you can just be a kind human being without any thought or obligation behind it but simply doing it because you'd expect the same from others. If other people don't well, that's their choice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by Kandorith on Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:16 pm

Mutual respect and tolerance seem like better rules for engagement today. Men should respect women, but women should respect men, men should respect other men, women respect to other women, and everything in between.

For example, “ladies first” shouldn’t be a rule. If someone holds the door open for you, say thank you. Don’t insist that you should open the door for them because they’re woman. Don’t feel insulted because a man held the door open for you (unless you feel like it comes from a place of being condescending rather than politeness.)

Idk seems like common sense to me
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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