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Moderation Farms?

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Forsher
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Moderation Farms?

Postby Forsher » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:35 pm

As I assume most of you know, Trump's been banned from Twitter for breaking the rules. Probably should've happened years and years ago, right? Not according to New Zealand's Privacy Commissioner who's come out and said:

The Twitter and Facebook bans are arbitrary, cynical, unprincipled and further evidence that regulation of social media platforms is urgently required.

Much worse has been allowed, and is still present on both platforms than the precipitating posts.


... on Twitter.

Well, okay, presumably Edwards means that Trump ought to have been banned and so on years and years ago, but because he wasn't and because the straw that broke the camel's back was what it was, the Trump ban isn't a sign of Twitter's being responsible but, instead, a manifestation of its arbitrary, cynical and unprincipled moderation practices. But then he goes on to say:

We should not be abdicating responsibility for the tough policy decisions required, and delegating responsibility for our community standards to conflicted corporates


Now, I should point out we've got a censorship board in NZ that does, in fact, actually censor stuff fairly regularly so that's probably important to remember. However, I do still think that Edwards is accepting the premise of people like Ted Cruz when they say things like:

Big Tech’s PURGE, censorship & abuse of power is absurd & profoundly dangerous.

If you agree w/ Tech’s current biases (Iran, good; Trump, bad), ask yourself, what happens when you disagree?

Why should a handful of Silicon Valley billionaires have a monopoly on political speech?


i.e. that places like Twitter are public, not private, spaces and that speech within them is controlled wholly by laws (rather than private rules).

Now, I'm perfectly willing to say that Uber is a taxi company with employees but I'm a lot more sceptical about saying that social media sites aren't private clubs with private rules. But it's much, much easier to believe that places like Twitter have been metaphorically getting away with murder by literally allowing people like Trump to say the things they say on their sites. In that sense, the question is: how would you regulate sites without editorial control (aka pre-emptive moderation)?

On one hand, the obvious solution is to force the existence of editorial control on places like Twitter, Facebook, Reddit and, yes, NSG. However, I feel this would be deeply, deeply wrong and would represent by far the strongest walking back of the (obviously misleading) idea that the internet is a force for democracy. Of course, I'm sure many old media firms would be very happy with mandated editorial control since, after all, the ability to control what is published, by whom and when was the basis of their business models (in the sense that controlling output meant they controlled audiences, which meant they had advertising space).

Of course, there's always the other (and more usual) kind of moderation: retroactive moderation (as practised on this forum... and basically how policing works IRL/outside). Now, if we reject Edwards and Cruz's POV it's pretty simple: we'd force these social media giants (as well as small and medium enterprises/sites like NSG) to demonstrate that they're adequately moderating. Leaving aside all the other problems that may or may not exist with this scheme, I suggest it has the same anti-democratic problems as mandating editorial control. Look, I'm from NZ and you're from [not NZ]. Obviously, we don't live our lives subject to the same laws and regulatory frameworks... as we've seen NZ has a censorship board, but NZ's also one of like two or three countries that allows pharmaceutical advertising to random citizens. However, we both use this website, right? Thus we have the question... how can we both use a site under "mandated moderation" except by the entirely coincidental overlap of what our governments decide adequate moderation to mean?

Now... I don't really want the UN or the ICC to be responsible for determining moderation's adequacy but that's a solution here: just make sure everything follows international law.

It's when we accept Edwards' premise that things get interesting since now it seems the way to do it is to do the moderating yourself. And hence... moderation farms (after troll farms) with police powers. Think of them like transit cops. It doesn't solve the problem of different legal systems, sure, but it is the logical extension of what Edwards is presumably doing (unless, you know, his point really was really, "Waaah, Trump's been banned" a la Cruz).

So... what say ye, NSG? What should be the role of government in moderation of web forums (and their inferior derivative competitors like Twitter, Facebook and Reddit)?
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Mercatus
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Postby Mercatus » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:44 pm

Social media platforms in my mind should only be able to censor porn.

The government has no business censoring anything ever, except child pornography of course because that shit is messed up.

I believe that severe legal penalties should exist that punish anyone who censors media content excluding porn, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of 10 years in prison for each count of censorship?
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Postby WayNeacTia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:47 pm

Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:54 pm

Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

This. Just get a blog old man.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:01 am

Moderation Farms?

For a minute there I thought the NS Mods were raising an army to march out and enact change.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:09 am

Mercatus wrote:Social media platforms in my mind should only be able to censor porn.

The government has no business censoring anything ever, except child pornography of course because that shit is messed up.

I believe that severe legal penalties should exist that punish anyone who censors media content excluding porn, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of 10 years in prison for each count of censorship?

So if a user is harassing another user, action should not be taken? If spambots are being spambots, action should not be taken? If someone with a large following incites that following to violence, action should not be taken?
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:15 am

Personally I'm more in favor of laws that allow you (or usually NGOs, civil groups, etc) to sue/report actually harmful contents and bring the cases to court, akin to libel laws, as opposed to a group of ethical paragons determining what's acceptable and what's not on the spot. Then again, it's the exact system Singapore uses to silence the opposition, where instead of arrests, the government just sue critical voices and bleed their finances to death through lengthy processes.
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Odreria
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Postby Odreria » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:51 am

Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

“Your landlord is a private individual who can evict anybody he wants for any reason.”
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:12 am

Resilient Acceleration wrote:Personally I'm more in favor of laws that allow you (or usually NGOs, civil groups, etc) to sue/report actually harmful contents and bring the cases to court, akin to libel laws, as opposed to a group of ethical paragons determining what's acceptable and what's not on the spot. Then again, it's the exact system Singapore uses to silence the opposition, where instead of arrests, the government just sue critical voices and bleed their finances to death through lengthy processes.


Seems a simple fix... suppose we have, let's name it, the Office of State Oversight or OSO. Thus, a process:

  • [content is posted]
  • complainant reports [content] to their nation's OSO
  • OSO's administrative process assigns the report to a three member Review panel
  • each member of the panel independently rules whether the complaint has merit
  • in the event the complaint is found to be meritorious by two out of three panellists:
    • the host site is notified of the complaint and is required to hand over basic identifying information about the poster
    • an OSO investigator compiles a report on the complaint (based on freely available information, i.e. basically reading the post chain)
    • the investigator determines whether or not the basic identifying information provided by the host site is sufficient to identify the poster IRL
    • the report is handed to a three member Judgement Panel, who independently determine the host site's culpability for the [content] and what steps it should take (e.g. shadowbanning the posting account in order to monitor it)
    • and then depending on whether they have identified the poster IRL or not we've got two options:
      • (if they know who the poster is IRL) the case is submitted to a "standing to sue" list and the complainant is notified of that fact
      • (for when they do not) the case is handed off to an investigative entity that works with the host site to identify the poster IRL
  • in the event the report is found to lack merit:
    • the complainant is notified of the finding and is given the option to appeal the decision
    • an investigator prepares a report (as discussed) and hands it to the members of a new random Review panel (who make their decisions independently of each other and the old panel, and if they agree, then it proceeds as already described)
    • if that panel also disagrees that the case lacks merit, the complainant is given the option to pay a nominal fee (say, $10) to have both sets of decisions reviewed by a single (appropriately senior) member of the OSO known as an Assessor
    • if still unsatisfied, the complainant can refer their interaction with the OSO to the ombudsman/national equivalent
  • in the event that the complaint is found to be made in bad faith by 2/3 of the panellists or in the event that 1 panellist says it has merit, 1 says it lacks merit and 1 says it was made in bad faith:
    • an Investigator reviews the publicly available material and submits a report
    • a single member of the OSO qualified to be a member of the Judgement Panel makes a recommendation based on the report and the original panel's decision/s to the Host Site or submits the complaint to a new panel (as per the appeals method)
  • and in the event that 1 Review panellist says the report was made in bad faith whilst the other two are agreed, that panellist is given the opportunity to submit the report to a new panel
    • if the new Review Panel also has a 1:2 split between bad faith:other opinion, both panellists are notified and have to decide in conjunction whether or not to appeal to an Assessor within one working day
    • otherwise as appropriately described above
  • a party, not necessarily the original complainant, chooses to pursue in an OSO Tribunal a case against any report that makes it to the "standing to sue" list.

Obviously, this gives members of the OSO quite considerable powers so there's a corruption risk. And, of course, the OSO system of panels wouldn't solve the problem of bad laws that require the OSO board to decide that harmless content is, in fact, a situation where the complaint was warranted.

In terms of workload? Well, we're relying on people being bothered to report things so I think it would be manageable. And, besides, I don't think it'd take too long to look into anything, especially since the Panellists make their decision without a report.
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:14 am

Odreria wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

“Your landlord is a private individual who can evict anybody he wants for any reason.”


When there's not a pandemic-related eviction moratorium, yes.
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Postby Saiwania » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:23 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:When there's not a pandemic-related eviction moratorium, yes.


There shouldn't be any in most cases. Don't people understand that most landlords have a mortgage to pay if not other bills and that it isn't viable to let someone reside rent free? A big bank isn't going to care why mortgage payments have stopped, they'll move to foreclosure if they can. And if a landlord does own a property outright, why it is on them to have a space cost them money or be a burden?

The government shouldn't interfere with rents at all, unless they're willing to pay the rent themselves or get the bank to halt the mortgage in place. It isn't only ever all about the damned tenants and their needs for shelter. It is a two way street of different interests/circumstances colliding.
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Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles
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Postby Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:27 am

Odreria wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

“Your landlord is a private individual who can evict anybody he wants for any reason.”


It would be more accurate to say that a landlord can evict a tenant if that tenant is in material breach of their lease agreement. Which is to say, a social media platform can evict a user if that user is in material breach of their terms of service (which, presumably, includes the agreement to refrain from certain types of posts).

edit: although, come to think of it, a social media or other online service terms of service agreement is likely to contain language to the effect of "we can terminate your service at any time, for any reason, without notice, or liability to you, just because." Presumably to limit liability to the user in the event that the online service goes out of business; I can't think of any good reason to actually randomly terminate people "just because" at any rate. By contrast, in my, and many, jurisdictions, landlords do not in fact have the right of arbitrary mid-term lease termination. This disparity is likely due to the fact that in the former case I have to spend 3 minutes of my life signing up for any of the zillions of available alternatives, whereas in the latter case I am immediately homeless and exposed to the elements. Not quite, in consequence, the same thing.
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:48 am

I find the entire thing to be a no win scenario. Big tech corporations being in control of so much information has disastrous consequences, but governments being in control have different though no less disastrous consequences. Who should control information? A billionaire tech CEO like Zuckerberg who cares for nothing more than his own wealth and power, or moralistic politicians who will gladly take away any freedom in the name of the greater good whose definition of truth is shaped by their own agenda? I'm basically being asked if I want lung cancer or AIDS. Tech CEO's and politicians are the two least trustworthy kinds of people on the planet.

I would point out that if Twitter was around in 2003, it's quite possible that they would censor or ban those who suggested that Saddam Hussein was not in possession of WMD's and not at all involved in 9/11, because at the time the "intelligence community" said he was, Republicans and Democrats in Congress were in agreement that Iraq should be invaded, and Fox News and MSNBC were equally jingoistic. Opposition to the Iraq War was not mainstream at the time and there is good reason to think that regulators would have cracked down on "disinformation" related to the war, like Dick Cheney's ties to Halliburton and their interests in taking control of the oil. And would you perhaps consider that coverage of war crimes committed by US military and Blackwater mercenaries might also be censored under the justification that it would incite the Iraqi populace to violence?

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So if we can't trust big tech and can't trust the government, what is the solution? I think we need an organic, grassroots movement against disinformation and hate. We need to become as vocal as the MAGA crowd and the anti-vaxxers. We need propaganda. Everyone thinks propaganda is a dirty word but propaganda doesn't mean lies, propaganda is just information disseminated to push an agenda. We need a response from the bottom up rather than the top down.
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Postby Shazbotdom » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:13 am

Here's an idea:

If you don't like how a private corporation runs their business (Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Parler, etc) then you either don't sign up for their service or delete your account. The Government should just butt the fuck out of private enterprise. Unless they are actively killing people, the Government has no place to tell a corporation how to run their business.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:27 am

Shazbotdom wrote:Unless they are actively killing people, the Government has no place to tell a corporation how to run their business.


Nah, governments need to enforce moral rules so that companies don't have to think about that shit whilst trying to act for the benefit their shareholders.
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Shazbotdom
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Postby Shazbotdom » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:30 am

Forsher wrote:
Shazbotdom wrote:Unless they are actively killing people, the Government has no place to tell a corporation how to run their business.


Nah, governments need to enforce moral rules so that companies don't have to think about that shit whilst trying to act for the benefit their shareholders.


Nah, If you don't like how a company runs their business, then you don't have to shop there, use their service, etc. That's the beauty of the free market.
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Resilient Acceleration
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Postby Resilient Acceleration » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:44 am

Forsher wrote:
Resilient Acceleration wrote:Personally I'm more in favor of laws that allow you (or usually NGOs, civil groups, etc) to sue/report actually harmful contents and bring the cases to court, akin to libel laws, as opposed to a group of ethical paragons determining what's acceptable and what's not on the spot. Then again, it's the exact system Singapore uses to silence the opposition, where instead of arrests, the government just sue critical voices and bleed their finances to death through lengthy processes.


Seems a simple fix... suppose we have, let's name it, the Office of State Oversight or OSO. Thus, a process:

  • [content is posted]
  • complainant reports [content] to their nation's OSO
  • OSO's administrative process assigns the report to a three member Review panel
  • each member of the panel independently rules whether the complaint has merit
  • in the event the complaint is found to be meritorious by two out of three panellists:
    • the host site is notified of the complaint and is required to hand over basic identifying information about the poster
    • an OSO investigator compiles a report on the complaint (based on freely available information, i.e. basically reading the post chain)
    • the investigator determines whether or not the basic identifying information provided by the host site is sufficient to identify the poster IRL
    • the report is handed to a three member Judgement Panel, who independently determine the host site's culpability for the [content] and what steps it should take (e.g. shadowbanning the posting account in order to monitor it)
    • and then depending on whether they have identified the poster IRL or not we've got two options:
      • (if they know who the poster is IRL) the case is submitted to a "standing to sue" list and the complainant is notified of that fact
      • (for when they do not) the case is handed off to an investigative entity that works with the host site to identify the poster IRL
  • in the event the report is found to lack merit:
    • the complainant is notified of the finding and is given the option to appeal the decision
    • an investigator prepares a report (as discussed) and hands it to the members of a new random Review panel (who make their decisions independently of each other and the old panel, and if they agree, then it proceeds as already described)
    • if that panel also disagrees that the case lacks merit, the complainant is given the option to pay a nominal fee (say, $10) to have both sets of decisions reviewed by a single (appropriately senior) member of the OSO known as an Assessor
    • if still unsatisfied, the complainant can refer their interaction with the OSO to the ombudsman/national equivalent
  • in the event that the complaint is found to be made in bad faith by 2/3 of the panellists or in the event that 1 panellist says it has merit, 1 says it lacks merit and 1 says it was made in bad faith:
    • an Investigator reviews the publicly available material and submits a report
    • a single member of the OSO qualified to be a member of the Judgement Panel makes a recommendation based on the report and the original panel's decision/s to the Host Site or submits the complaint to a new panel (as per the appeals method)
  • and in the event that 1 Review panellist says the report was made in bad faith whilst the other two are agreed, that panellist is given the opportunity to submit the report to a new panel
    • if the new Review Panel also has a 1:2 split between bad faith:other opinion, both panellists are notified and have to decide in conjunction whether or not to appeal to an Assessor within one working day
    • otherwise as appropriately described above
  • a party, not necessarily the original complainant, chooses to pursue in an OSO Tribunal a case against any report that makes it to the "standing to sue" list.

Obviously, this gives members of the OSO quite considerable powers so there's a corruption risk. And, of course, the OSO system of panels wouldn't solve the problem of bad laws that require the OSO board to decide that harmless content is, in fact, a situation where the complaint was warranted.

In terms of workload? Well, we're relying on people being bothered to report things so I think it would be manageable. And, besides, I don't think it'd take too long to look into anything, especially since the Panellists make their decision without a report.

Huh. In my country, rather than OSO, the cases are simply reported to and handled by the police. Due to that nature, only things that clearly will cause real damage (such as inciting Islamist violence or COVID conspiracy) are seriously tackled. You are free to post whatever you want on Twitter, but you're not free from the consequences—namely, police forces barging on your door.

"People being bothered to report things" is also a far too nice euphemism for "active online mob financially backed by the state intelligence apparatus, mass organizations, and/or political parties." Admittedly it's a bit authoritarian, but considering the actually catastrophic effect disinformation caused in 2016, the policy's justification is pretty obvious.

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 TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:51 am

I strongly disagree with censorship in general. The solution to most speech-related issues is more speech. Make speech frequent and unrelated to RL. The only exception is when people are actually physically harmed. Child porn is an example of that. Serious call for assassination of a non-tyrant is another.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:25 am

Twitter bans people for inciting violence because it's easier than facing legal challenges in court everytime some wingnut tells people to commit acts of violence and they actually do it. If Twitter is willing to constantly be dragged into court over a lawsuit for wrongful death or whatever else then go ahead I guess, but if they decide it isnt worth the time then they have every right to say "that's it you're gone. We don't need you telling people to commit terrorism on our site."
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129570
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:35 am

There needs to be legislation passed that makes websites "common carriers", much like the American railroads and airlines are. The legislation should completely prohibit censorship on those sites, with the exception of direct incitement.

Twitter is within its legal rights to ban Trump and Trump supporters, they should not be.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Apr 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:41 am

Ethel mermania wrote:There needs to be legislation passed that makes websites "common carriers", much like the American railroads and airlines are. The legislation should completely prohibit censorship on those sites, with the exception of direct incitement.

Twitter is within its legal rights to ban Trump and Trump supporters, they should be.


On the internet, websites are freight, not trains and planes. ISPs makes more sense as common carrier. At best, a "website" stops being a courier at the ethernet jack of the server it's running on.

It's also probably not possible to "prohibit censorship" on a piece of private property without violating the speech rights of said property's owner. An ISP can be a "common courier" because it's not hosting or curating any content, and so, at least in theory, has no stake in that content. The content is merely passing through its tubes. The point of a website, however, is to directly host and curate. Accordingly, the owner of the website has a direct speech interest.
Last edited by Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129570
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:44 am

Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:There needs to be legislation passed that makes websites "common carriers", much like the American railroads and airlines are. The legislation should completely prohibit censorship on those sites, with the exception of direct incitement.

Twitter is within its legal rights to ban Trump and Trump supporters, they should not be.


On the internet, websites are freight, not trains and planes. ISPs makes more sense as common carrier. At best, a "website" stops being a courier at the ethernet jack of the server it's running on.


We disagree, the service is what is important not the hardware. To go back to the analogy, the tracks are useless (the pipes) without the service. (The train)
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25619
Founded: May 23, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby The Alma Mater » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:49 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

This. Just get a blog old man.


Livejournal can certainly use the extra traffic.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25619
Founded: May 23, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby The Alma Mater » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:50 am

Odreria wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Twitter is a privately owned company that can ban anyone they choose for any reason. Just like NationStates. The President isn't being censored. He can call a fucking press conference if he wants to.

“Your landlord is a private individual who can evict anybody he wants for any reason.”


Well, one assumes there is at least a contract of sorts.
But if you breach that contract repeatedly - why not ?
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles
Envoy
 
Posts: 308
Founded: Apr 04, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:51 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles wrote:
On the internet, websites are freight, not trains and planes. ISPs makes more sense as common carrier. At best, a "website" stops being a courier at the ethernet jack of the server it's running on.


We disagree, the service is what is important not the hardware. To go back to the analogy, the tracks are useless (the pipes) without the service. (The train)


Apologies, I was editing my post to address, I think, this precise point:

Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles wrote:It's also probably not possible to "prohibit censorship" on a piece of private property without violating the speech rights of said property's owner. An ISP can be a "common courier" because it's not hosting or curating any content, and so, at least in theory, has no stake in that content. The content is merely passing through its tubes. The point of a website, however, is to directly host and curate. Accordingly, the owner of the website has a direct speech interest.


Which is to say, an ISP (constituting the metaphorical tracks and train) can be required to deliver bits without regard to their content because it has no direct interest in that content. It merely moves metaphorically opaque and sealed packages between addresses. Those addresses (the "websites"), by contrast, are the one's generating, curating, and hosting the content. They are not common carriers because they do have an interest in what that content is, and their speech rights include the right to limit what that content is.

I'm entirely within my rights to refuse delivery of a package to my home, even if you sent it to me via a common courier, the status of which merely requires that it attempt the delivery at least once even if the delivery guy happens to dislike my taste in whatever it is.
Last edited by Nattily Dressed Anarchists on Bicycles on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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