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Picairn
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:38 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:Who will you blame in a couple weeks when Biden is in charge if people keep dying? Trump is not God (despite what a few enthusiastic people might believe).

If Biden actually puts in a massive effort to combat the virus then I'll cheer him on. Trump's inept preparation and downplaying of the virus led the US to this mess.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:39 pm


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ImperialRussia
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Postby ImperialRussia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm

Picairn wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:Who will you blame in a couple weeks when Biden is in charge if people keep dying? Trump is not God (despite what a few enthusiastic people might believe).

If Biden actually puts in a massive effort to combat the virus then I'll cheer him on. Trump's inept preparation and downplaying of the virus led the US to this mess.

At least people believe in Biden we’re all fine are we

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Sanghyeok
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:43 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:It needs to be said: this worst administration in the history of the nation is checked out while every day more people die from COVID than died on 9/11/01. If for nothing more than that Trump needs to go.


Plenty of socialist nations in Europe (which are mostly led by liberal leaders) have high death tolls as well. If they are liberal and have harsh restrictions on civil liberties, why do they also have high death tolls?

I hope you are not blaming Trump for the virus deaths. Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the UK have similar death rates to the USA.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of January 13, 2021, by country

https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... habitants/

"Socialist" nations with "liberal" leaders.
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Sanghyeok
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Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
Plenty of socialist nations in Europe (which are mostly led by liberal leaders) have high death tolls as well. If they are liberal and have harsh restrictions on civil liberties, why do they also have high death tolls?

I hope you are not blaming Trump for the virus deaths. Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the UK have similar death rates to the USA.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of January 13, 2021, by country

https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... habitants/


Basically Anglo-Saxon men have come out looking very irresponsible and irrational this past year. As far as I can tell the main topic in the UK around Covid is 'yes but can we go to the pub', getting down to the ridiculous debate as to whether a scotch egg is a substantial meal.

Between white people's attitude to the virus and the white supremacists who stormed the Capitol and overwhelmingly support Trump, let's just say Brand White Man took a beating.

Near all of Asia including Australia and NZ are pretty ok with things, and we probably have harsher restrictions as well.

Having said that, having a leader so stupid as to downplay, mix message and even fucking catch it themselves - hello Trump and Boris Johnson - is appalling lack of leadership.

It may well have been bad but it didn't have to be so very bad.


I don't think Johnson ever downplayed the virus, even if he did mishandle it.
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Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:45 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Yeah, there's no saving the Republican voter base: GOP voters choose Trump. However, Trump does poorly enough with "traditional Republicans" that while it would be enough for him to win the nomination in 2024, they wouldn't be enough to carry him to victory, especially since Independents support his removal and oppose him as a nominee.

Yet, while Republicans appear united, it's the Trump Type Republicans that are very united: Just 1% of Trump Republicans — versus about one-in-four traditional Republicans — think Trump should be removed from office. The Trump Republicans are still large enough of a group to either stay and dominate primary politics or walk away if Trump is cast out, which would weaken the GOP's force posture against Democrats.

That said, I still think McConnell and others will take the short term pain over the long term gains they can make.

Josh Hawley, though, got fucked
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Omniabstracta
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Anarchy

Postby Omniabstracta » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:48 pm

Kowani wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Yeah, there's no saving the Republican voter base: GOP voters choose Trump. However, Trump does poorly enough with "traditional Republicans" that while it would be enough for him to win the nomination in 2024, they wouldn't be enough to carry him to victory, especially since Independents support his removal and oppose him as a nominee.

Yet, while Republicans appear united, it's the Trump Type Republicans that are very united: Just 1% of Trump Republicans — versus about one-in-four traditional Republicans — think Trump should be removed from office. The Trump Republicans are still large enough of a group to either stay and dominate primary politics or walk away if Trump is cast out, which would weaken the GOP's force posture against Democrats.

That said, I still think McConnell and others will take the short term pain over the long term gains they can make.

Josh Hawley, though, got fucked

One of the replies does bring up a good point: Trumpism only seems to stick to Trump. No matter how loyal or Trumpist one is, the base cares about Trump and Trump alone and anyone who tries to emulate him—especially a more “agreeable” form of his populism—is invariably labeled as a traitor, a loser, or a hack sometime down the line.
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Jedi Council
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Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:48 pm

Kowani wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Yeah, there's no saving the Republican voter base: GOP voters choose Trump. However, Trump does poorly enough with "traditional Republicans" that while it would be enough for him to win the nomination in 2024, they wouldn't be enough to carry him to victory, especially since Independents support his removal and oppose him as a nominee.

Yet, while Republicans appear united, it's the Trump Type Republicans that are very united: Just 1% of Trump Republicans — versus about one-in-four traditional Republicans — think Trump should be removed from office. The Trump Republicans are still large enough of a group to either stay and dominate primary politics or walk away if Trump is cast out, which would weaken the GOP's force posture against Democrats.

That said, I still think McConnell and others will take the short term pain over the long term gains they can make.

Josh Hawley, though, got fucked

He deserves it.

If only he were in a more competitive seat; Missouri's been trending red for a long damn time.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Basically Anglo-Saxon men have come out looking very irresponsible and irrational this past year. As far as I can tell the main topic in the UK around Covid is 'yes but can we go to the pub', getting down to the ridiculous debate as to whether a scotch egg is a substantial meal.

Between white people's attitude to the virus and the white supremacists who stormed the Capitol and overwhelmingly support Trump, let's just say Brand White Man took a beating.

Near all of Asia including Australia and NZ are pretty ok with things, and we probably have harsher restrictions as well.

Having said that, having a leader so stupid as to downplay, mix message and even fucking catch it themselves - hello Trump and Boris Johnson - is appalling lack of leadership.

It may well have been bad but it didn't have to be so very bad.


I don't think Johnson ever downplayed the virus, even if he did mishandle it.


Sure he did, he went tootling around the hospital without a mask and boasted how he shook hands with everyone, and then he caught it badly and changed his tune somewhat.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 pm

Last edited by Kowani on Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Corrian
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Postby Corrian » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 pm

Republican who voted to impeach Trump wanted 7 minutes to make an argument of why he was, only got 1

While I get the rules, I kinda agree here that it was a missed opportunity for a Republican to make their case for impeachment. Would it have made any more go over? I don't know, but it'd be worth a shot.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Eahland wrote:There were more American deaths from COVID-19 yesterday than there were in the Iraq War.

At current rates, we'll reach "more American deaths from COVID-19 than from World War II" before Trump leaves office. We're already at more than three World War Is.


Who will you blame in a couple weeks when Biden is in charge if people keep dying? Trump is not God (despite what a few enthusiastic people might believe).

Trump.

Because Trump is the person who let it get this point by dissolving the US' world renowned and respected Pandemic Response Unit because he didn't think there'd be a pandemic during his presidency.
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Cannot think of a name
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:22 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Eahland wrote:There were more American deaths from COVID-19 yesterday than there were in the Iraq War.

At current rates, we'll reach "more American deaths from COVID-19 than from World War II" before Trump leaves office. We're already at more than three World War Is.


Who will you blame in a couple weeks when Biden is in charge if people keep dying? Trump is not God (despite what a few enthusiastic people might believe).

A week before Biden is sworn in and he's already criticized for not genie blinking away a year of Trump's incompetent and destructive response to the pandemic.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Freiheit Reich
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Founded: May 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Freiheit Reich » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:23 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
Plenty of socialist nations in Europe (which are mostly led by liberal leaders) have high death tolls as well. If they are liberal and have harsh restrictions on civil liberties, why do they also have high death tolls?

I hope you are not blaming Trump for the virus deaths. Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the UK have similar death rates to the USA.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of January 13, 2021, by country

https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... habitants/


Basically Anglo-Saxon men have come out looking very irresponsible and irrational this past year. As far as I can tell the main topic in the UK around Covid is 'yes but can we go to the pub', getting down to the ridiculous debate as to whether a scotch egg is a substantial meal.

Between white people's attitude to the virus and the white supremacists who stormed the Capitol and overwhelmingly support Trump, let's just say Brand White Man took a beating.

Near all of Asia including Australia and NZ are pretty ok with things, and we probably have harsher restrictions as well.

Having said that, having a leader so stupid as to downplay, mix message and even fucking catch it themselves - hello Trump and Boris Johnson - is appalling lack of leadership.

It may well have been bad but it didn't have to be so very bad.


Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:26 pm

Picairn wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:Who will you blame in a couple weeks when Biden is in charge if people keep dying? Trump is not God (despite what a few enthusiastic people might believe).

If Biden actually puts in a massive effort to combat the virus then I'll cheer him on. Trump's inept preparation and downplaying of the virus led the US to this mess.

The first thing he did when preparing his transition was to put together a team to deal with COVID and look at ways to fix the botched roll out of the vaccine. There is some discussion among them as to what that might be.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postauthoritarian America
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Postauthoritarian America » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:26 pm



Committee hearing. It goes to the Senate floor later.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:29 pm

Corrian wrote:Republican who voted to impeach Trump wanted 7 minutes to make an argument of why he was, only got 1

While I get the rules, I kinda agree here that it was a missed opportunity for a Republican to make their case for impeachment. Would it have made any more go over? I don't know, but it'd be worth a shot.

I mean, that one dude up front had a fit to get his four minutes so he could make his 'scoreboard' speech. Could have shaved a few minutes off everyone who was just going to make the same "But Trump moved the embassy in Israel so it's totally okay that he incited a riot..." argument.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.


I'm afraid the events of last week showed that America is far closer to becoming an authoritarian hellhole than Australia or NZ.. at this point you're really just talking unsubstantiated idealistic bullshit. Being sensible is not the same as being authoritarian. Taking due precautions in a pandemic given near 3M deaths worldwide is not sliding into authoritarianism. Listening to medical advice given a viral disease is not restricting freedom.

It's amazing the claims people make when their very own are doing exactly those claims.
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Postauthoritarian America
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Founded: Nov 07, 2020
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Postauthoritarian America » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Basically Anglo-Saxon men have come out looking very irresponsible and irrational this past year. As far as I can tell the main topic in the UK around Covid is 'yes but can we go to the pub', getting down to the ridiculous debate as to whether a scotch egg is a substantial meal.

Between white people's attitude to the virus and the white supremacists who stormed the Capitol and overwhelmingly support Trump, let's just say Brand White Man took a beating.

Near all of Asia including Australia and NZ are pretty ok with things, and we probably have harsher restrictions as well.

Having said that, having a leader so stupid as to downplay, mix message and even fucking catch it themselves - hello Trump and Boris Johnson - is appalling lack of leadership.

It may well have been bad but it didn't have to be so very bad.


Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.


We're talking about basic, basic public health measures to stem the spread of a virulent respiratory disease for which there was no vaccine until recently and still no cure. Refusing to wear masks in public, fighting against social distancing and closures of public places and making political points off actual political leaders who actually try to save peoples' lives is not "give me Liberty or give me death," it's "I'll do as I damn well please and to hell with my neighbors."
8:46 | "There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." -- Ulysses S. Grant, 1861 | "You don't get mulligans in insurrection." | "It is long past time to admit the blindingly obvious: the Republican party has been hijacked by fascist extremists. It is now a far-right organization in league with neo-Nazis who have made it painfully clear they want to overthrow democracy and seize power, using violence if necessary." | "I didn't vote to overturn an election, and I will not be lectured by people who did about partisanship." -- Rep. Gerry Connolly

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Postauthoritarian America wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:
Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.


We're talking about basic, basic public health measures to stem the spread of a virulent respiratory disease for which there was no vaccine until recently and still no cure. Refusing to wear masks in public, fighting against social distancing and closures of public places and making political points off actual political leaders who actually try to save peoples' lives is not "give me Liberty or give me death," it's "I'll do as I damn well please and to hell with my neighbors."


It's the mind state of the 14 year old kid slamming the door shouting 'you can't tell me what to do!'.

It's juvenile.
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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:34 pm

Freiheit Reich wrote:Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.

Ah yes, the good old "freedom" spiel. Freedom to what? To infect other people at will because of your recklessness and ignorance? Might as well have a "Right to murder" if you so desire "freedom".
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Postauthoritarian America wrote:
We're talking about basic, basic public health measures to stem the spread of a virulent respiratory disease for which there was no vaccine until recently and still no cure. Refusing to wear masks in public, fighting against social distancing and closures of public places and making political points off actual political leaders who actually try to save peoples' lives is not "give me Liberty or give me death," it's "I'll do as I damn well please and to hell with my neighbors."


It's the mind state of the 14 year old kid slamming the door shouting 'you can't tell me what to do!'.

It's juvenile.

It is remarkable how many times I've wanted to shout "Are you fucking 12?" in 2020.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Sanghyeok
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Posts: 5030
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:37 pm

Picairn wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:Peru and Mexico and Brazil also had high death rates and they are mostly non-white.

Personally, I would rather have a higher death rate and not bend towards dictator like tactics. New Zealand and Australia behaved eerily like China with their trampling of human rights to stop the virus. Short-term, it looks great that they solved the issue. Long-term, it may cause their country to become an authoritarian nation because leaders know that they can trample rights in the name of 'safety.'

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" We must not forget these words.

Ah yes, the good old "freedom" spiel. Freedom to what? To infect other people at will because of your recklessness and ignorance? Might as well have a "Right to murder" if you so desire "freedom".

"My freedom to not wear a mask is worth more than X person's life!" is what these people are saying when they shout freedom (and then go back home to support police violence).
万国の労働者よ、団結せよ!
大プロレタリアート魔法革命万 統一戦線万歳 どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things

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Bombadil
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16147
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:40 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
It's the mind state of the 14 year old kid slamming the door shouting 'you can't tell me what to do!'.

It's juvenile.

It is remarkable how many times I've wanted to shout "Are you fucking 12?" in 2020.


It reminds me of this old quote from yore..

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Freiheit Reich
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Posts: 5510
Founded: May 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Freiheit Reich » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:44 pm

Picairn wrote:
Freiheit Reich wrote:Plenty of socialist nations in Europe (which are mostly led by liberal leaders) have high death tolls as well. If they are liberal and have harsh restrictions on civil liberties, why do they also have high death tolls?

Except their death tolls are far lower than the US. The UK, which has the highest death toll out of all countries in Europe, has 83k deaths as of January 13, 2021. That's not even half the US' deaths, which sit at nearly 390k. https://www.statista.com/statistics/109 ... y-country/

I hope you are not blaming Trump for the virus deaths. Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the UK have similar death rates to the USA.

We blame Trump for his inept preparations for the virus and his neglect that leads to over 300k American deaths. This mantra of "Don't blame Trump for the virus" is so boring and tiresome, it has been debunked repeatedly but some people still won't get it.

Oh and in absolute numbers, the US still ranks first in Covid deaths.


You need to go by per-capita rates. The USA also has a much bigger population than Belgium or the UK.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.87

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