My issues with cities

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Then I'm not sure why it's a problem to take issue with unnecessary intrusion. We have rights against that already.

Because I think that reducing freedom to a mere lack of social interference (whether state, corporate, or merely the cultural norms of high-density living) is oversimplistic and unhelpful.

Freedom is fundamentally about being able to do stuff, and in that regard high density living offers as many advantages as disadvantages. That goes double for people like me who don’t own a car.

Sure, I have to accommodate the needs and desires of a much greater number of people, but it is also these same people who facilitate the things I’d like to do in life.

[Kernen]

Then I'm not sure why it's a problem to take issue with unnecessary intrusion. We have rights against that already.

Because I think that reducing freedom to a mere lack of social interference (whether state, corporate, or merely the cultural norms of high-density living) is oversimplistic and unhelpful.

Freedom is fundamentally about being able to do stuff, and in that regard high density living offers as many advantages as disadvantages. That goes double for people like me who don’t own a car.

Sure, I have to accommodate the needs and desires of a much greater number of people, but it is also these same people who facilitate the things I’d like to do in life.

That's a trade off that works for you. I am much less willing to accommodate the needs of strangers, be it for ease of state control or their personal benefit. That's why I don't live in a city. It's not unreasonable at all to take issue with that accommodation in favor of less interference in your own life.

[San Lumen]

Because I think that reducing freedom to a mere lack of social interference (whether state, corporate, or merely the cultural norms of high-density living) is oversimplistic and unhelpful.

Freedom is fundamentally about being able to do stuff, and in that regard high density living offers as many advantages as disadvantages. That goes double for people like me who don’t own a car.

Sure, I have to accommodate the needs and desires of a much greater number of people, but it is also these same people who facilitate the things I’d like to do in life.

That's a trade off that works for you. I am much less willing to accommodate the needs of strangers, be it for ease of state control or their personal benefit. That's why I don't live in a city. It's not unreasonable at all to take issue with that accommodation in favor of less interference in your own life.

I don;t understand what living in a city has to with accommodation. Also what are you defining as a city population wise?

[Kernen]

That's a trade off that works for you. I am much less willing to accommodate the needs of strangers, be it for ease of state control or their personal benefit. That's why I don't live in a city. It's not unreasonable at all to take issue with that accommodation in favor of less interference in your own life.

I don;t understand what living in a city has to with accommodation. Also what are you defining as a city population wise?

The precise parameters of what makes a city isn't entirely relevant here.

That said, accommodation of others is paramount in a city. OP lays it out well. Space is at a premium, so you are working to accommodate more people in a day than I am. I'm not sure how many people you are within 20 feet of in a regular nonCovid day, but I don't come within 20 feet of more than maybe 4 people where I am because we have so much space to work with and very little cooperation.

If I want to stand outside my home and smoke a cigar, the smoke dissipates before it reaches anybody. I can set off fireworks in my yard without attracting neighborly attention. I have room to park a car conveniently. Living in a city I could do none of these without affecting somebody because everybody lives so close to each other. Accommodation. And I have no desire to accommodate my neighbors. To say nothing of state legibility in the city vs in the boonies.

[Stellar Colonies]

Between cities and rural areas, I tend to prefer rural areas, but that's a personal preference based on the latter being less crowded. If a given city and rural area are both run properly, there aren't inherently better or worse about either, just a set of conditions in each which some people would interpret to mean one being better than the other. And economically speaking, both are important as well in each of their own ways.

All that aside though, my personal preferences ultimately favor suburbs over either cities or rural areas.

[San Lumen]

Between cities and rural areas, I tend to prefer rural areas, but that's a personal preference based on the latter being less crowded. If a given city and rural area are both run properly, there aren't inherently better or worse about either, just a set of conditions in each which some people would interpret to mean one being better than the other. And economically speaking, both are important as well in each of their own ways.

All that aside though, my personal preferences ultimately favor suburbs over either cities or rural areas.

I loathe suburbs. They have no character whatsoever.

[Major-Tom]

Between cities and rural areas, I tend to prefer rural areas, but that's a personal preference based on the latter being less crowded. If a given city and rural area are both run properly, there aren't inherently better or worse about either, just a set of conditions in each which some people would interpret to mean one being better than the other. And economically speaking, both are important as well in each of their own ways.

All that aside though, my personal preferences ultimately favor suburbs over either cities or rural areas.

I loathe suburbs. They have no character whatsoever.

Not necessarily, depends on the suburbs. Some are McMansion hellholes (see the PHX suburbs, many suburbs in the Sun Belt actually). But others, like some East Coast suburban areas are quite nice. I've seen a good deal of suburbs, and my favorite might unironically be those in Kansas City for the tree-lined streets and interesting architecture, along with reasonable character.

[San Lumen]

I loathe suburbs. They have no character whatsoever.

Not necessarily, depends on the suburbs. Some are McMansion hellholes (see the PHX suburbs, many suburbs in the Sun Belt actually). But others, like some East Coast suburban areas are quite nice. I've seen a good deal of suburbs, and my favorite might unironically be those in Kansas City for the tree-lined streets and interesting architecture, along with reasonable character.

I’ll concede on that one. It does depend on the area. Suburbs in my area have little character

[Kernen]

Not necessarily, depends on the suburbs. Some are McMansion hellholes (see the PHX suburbs, many suburbs in the Sun Belt actually). But others, like some East Coast suburban areas are quite nice. I've seen a good deal of suburbs, and my favorite might unironically be those in Kansas City for the tree-lined streets and interesting architecture, along with reasonable character.

I’ll concede on that one. It does depend on the area. Suburbs in my area have little character

They may have no character, but the houses are sprawling compared to city apartments. More space means less reason to go in public to recreate.

[San Lumen]

I’ll concede on that one. It does depend on the area. Suburbs in my area have little character

They may have no character, but the houses are sprawling compared to city apartments. More space means less reason to go in public to recreate.

Many cities have large parks and plazas.

A large number of suburbs have cookie cutter housing.

[Kernen]

They may have no character, but the houses are sprawling compared to city apartments. More space means less reason to go in public to recreate.

Many cities have large parks and plazas.

A large number of suburbs have cookie cutter housing.

Yes but to be in a large park or plaza, you need to be somewhere where other people are allowed. That sounds awful.

[Neutraligon]

I’ll concede on that one. It does depend on the area. Suburbs in my area have little character

They may have no character, but the houses are sprawling compared to city apartments. More space means less reason to go in public to recreate.

I don't need nor do I want sprawling space. I am comfortable in 600sqft and would be very happy with 1500, any bigger and it would be too big for me. I like living in the city. I like living close to people an having access to so many different things to do. I like that I can drive less then an hour and be out in the country to hike or bike ride (not that I need to go out that far). I like hearing other people near me, the quiet of the countryside is disturbing to me. I like that the fire department is close to me, as are hospitals should there be an emergency. I like that I don't know everyone I meet, because that means I am not held to set standards nor am I the subject of gossip. I like the freedom and convenience that living in a city offers me. Living in a rural area would likely drive me insane.

[San Lumen]

Many cities have large parks and plazas.

A large number of suburbs have cookie cutter housing.

Yes but to be in a large park or plaza, you need to be somewhere where other people are allowed. That sounds awful.

What’s so awful about it?

[Kernen]

Yes but to be in a large park or plaza, you need to be somewhere where other people are allowed. That sounds awful.

What’s so awful about it?

The people. I don't like people.

[San Lumen]

What’s so awful about it?

The people. I don't like people.

Ok but that doesn’t mean cities are bad places.

[Kernen]

The people. I don't like people.

Ok but that doesn’t mean cities are bad places.

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

[Ethel mermania]

Ok but that doesn’t mean cities are bad places.

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

Well, we smell worse anyway

[Kernen]

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

Well, we smell worse anyway

The smell of that much civilization in one place is unbearable. Car exhaust, concrete, people...it makes me shudder.

[San Lumen]

Ok but that doesn’t mean cities are bad places.

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

I don’t see how having more people makes it bad.

[Kernen]

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

I don’t see how having more people makes it bad.

Because I don't like people. Do you want a diagram?

[Ethel mermania]

I don’t see how having more people makes it bad.

Because I don't like people. Do you want a diagram?

Yes. PowerPoint preferably

[Kernen]

Because I don't like people. Do you want a diagram?

Yes. PowerPoint preferably

Sigh

Fine. I'll put one together.

[Stellar Colonies]

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

I don’t see how having more people makes it bad.

I don't like crowds either.

Too many people, stuck in a mass group of them, all of them just moving around and me embedded amongst them, just there...

I hate it. Don't like cities as well for that reason, although some of them are aesthetically pleasing.

Rural areas are too sparse though, although they have a certain charm.

Suburbs are a perfect balance between the two for me, especially if cities and the rural parts are both within a day's drive.

[Ethel mermania]

There are 14,000 people in my town. There are 8.3 million in NYC. One has more people. Ergo, cities are, to me, pretty bad.

I don’t see how having more people makes it bad.

Can't riot much in a small town.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Also it's not like every city is a dystopian megalopolis hellhole. I live in the hilly outer rim of my city, where the average building height is two story tall with empty plots of land in between, and in weekends we often go to the national park or hills on the north rather than the malls down town.