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My issues with cities

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Aguaria Major
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Founded: Apr 21, 2016
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Postby Aguaria Major » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:56 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Adamede wrote:Rural populations have always been low, that’s why they’re rural. Cities really have nothing to do with it.


In pre-industrial societies, peasant-farmers were the majority of the population and only a minority of people lived in cities. That only really changed with the industrial revolution. Of course the industrial revolution did involve massive population growth, but the shift also was related to the mechanization of agriculture and the mass movement of rural people into cities to find jobs.

Cities, though, were the natural result of the specialization of labor, and have always been the centers of labor specialization since their invention; when fewer people needed to farm, they built cities, and that is where technological developments that have allowed for greater specialization happened, and so on and so on. Their constant growth and inevitably increasing share of the population is the result of specialization building on itself in an exponential fashion. This is why urbanization levels have been going up through almost all of modern history.

The industrial revolution was born in cities, not the other way around.
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Aguaria Major
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Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Aguaria Major » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:58 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Adamede wrote:And population density was still low, because the total human population was only several hundred million.


Indeed. It seems as though over-population is becoming a signficant problem in the world nowadays.

So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.
We are Aguaria Major. We are a leftist democracy, located in the Pacific on an archipelago between Hawaii and Fiji. Learn more about us here:
We favor environmental protection and the funding of science and technology.
However, this doesn't mean we're pushovers. We spend billions on our military every year, and are not afraid to conquer nations who wrong us. We are not a peaceful nation.
We boast great reserves of power and wealth in our mainland provinces of Lavendoria in Africa and Nation of Beefheart in East Asia, and our impregnable Pitcairn Islands fortress-city of the Province of Every Name I Tried Was Already Taken.
We have an agreement of alliance with Ceruleus.
Our flag's 5th color is orange.

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Adamede
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Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:59 pm

Aguaria Major wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
Indeed. It seems as though over-population is becoming a signficant problem in the world nowadays.

So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.

I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.
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Rusozak
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Founded: Jun 14, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rusozak » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:01 pm

Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:01 pm

Adamede wrote:
Aguaria Major wrote:So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.

I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.

Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

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Kernen
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
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Postby Kernen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:11 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Adamede wrote:I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.

Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.
Last edited by Kernen on Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:16 pm

Kernen wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 111954
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:17 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kernen wrote:Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular


Tell that to Staten Island
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:20 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular


Tell that to Staten Island

What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?

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Ethel mermania
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:22 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Tell that to Staten Island

What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?


They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:24 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
San Lumen wrote:What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?


They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously

I say let them have a referendum.

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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:31 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously

I say let them have a referendum.


They did. From the wiki

The "Greater City" exists as a result of actions of the New York State Legislature, and, as such, could be reduced in size by the same mechanism. A non-binding referendum in the borough of Staten Island was held in 1993 to consider whether it should be allowed to secede from the City. The New York City government and Mayor David Dinkins opposed the vote, contending that the referendum should not be permitted by the state unless the city issued a home rule message supporting it, which the city would not. Governor Mario Cuomo disagreed, and the vote went forward. Ultimately, 65% of Staten Island residents voted to secede, through the approval of a new city charter making Staten Island an independent city, but implementation was blocked in the State Assembly.[21][22]
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Kernen
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
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Postby Kernen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:32 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kernen wrote:Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:37 pm

Kernen wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:37 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kernen wrote:They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_po ... tional_law)

Its a relatively basic constitutional concept. Albeit unusual to find outside policy and legal issues. Its not surprising.
Last edited by Kernen on Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 111954
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:38 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Kernen wrote:They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.


Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:44 pm

We can make a fairly easy distinction between power, or legal ability to enforce a policy or take action, and political ability, which requires procedural adherence to the lawmaking process and at least some measure of popular support. The NY State legislature will likely never have the consent of New Yorkers to divide New York City into ten thousand towns with equally small tax bases and the need for duplicative public works and administrations. That would be a patently insane policy. But political ability is not legal power.

Similarly, POTUS (any POTUS, not Trump) has the power to surrender the military, as commander in chief, to a foreign power. Or to declare that he or she would not order the military to fight an invasion were one to come. Or some variation on that. Doing so would almost certainly ensure he or she were not reelected. Running on that campaign would certainly ensure he or she were not elected. It may even trigger political attempts to remove him or her from office. That does not mean that he or she lacks the power to take that action in the first place.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:44 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I’ve never heard of any such power.


Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.

I didn’t know they did but it’s extremely doubtful any legislature would break up a city or county because they felt like it.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:51 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.

I didn’t know they did but it’s extremely doubtful any legislature would break up a city or county because they felt like it.

Well, yes. That was the caveat made at every turn...
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Shazbotdom
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Founded: Sep 28, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Shazbotdom » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:07 pm

Cities are an epicenter of cultural advancement. I much prefer to be here in New Orleans, where there is a mix of dozens of cultures, tons of different food styles, and music at nearly every single street corner throughout the Vieux Carre, Marigny, and other sections of the city.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:25 pm

Rusozak wrote:Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.

That’s is literally my worse nightmare as a biology enthusiast.
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Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
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San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
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Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:31 pm

Rusozak wrote:Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.

I’d rather not see Coruscant become a reality.

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Northwest Slobovia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12402
Founded: Sep 16, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:08 pm

Kernen wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.

Powers and duties of legislature; home rule powers of local governments; statute of local governments.

§2. (a) The legislature shall provide for the creation and organization of local governments [but apparently not their destruction] in such manner as shall secure to them the rights, powers, privileges and immunities granted to them by this constitution.

(b) Subject to the bill of rights of local governments and other applicable provisions of this constitution, the legislature:

(l) Shall enact, and may from time to time amend, a statute of local governments granting to local governments powers including but not limited to those of local legislation and administration in addition to the powers vested in them by this article. A power granted in such statute may be repealed, diminished, impaired or suspended only by enactment of a statute by the legislature with the approval of the governor at its regular session in one calendar year and the re-enactment and approval of such statute in the following calendar year.

(2) Shall have the power to act in relation to the property, affairs or government of any local government only by general law, or by special law only (a) on request of two-thirds of the total membership of its [the local government's] legislative body or on request of its [the local government's] chief executive officer concurred in by a majority of such membership, or (b) except in the case of the city of New York, on certificate of necessity from the governor reciting facts which in the judgment of the governor constitute an emergency requiring enactment of such law and, in such latter case, with the concurrence of two-thirds of the members elected to each house of the legislature.

In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

Edit: this constitution is dated 2014, after the referendum Ethel mentioned upthread. NYC maybe have grabbed a few more rights to prevent a repeat of that.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk. :p
Last edited by Northwest Slobovia on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56605
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:12 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Kernen wrote:They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.

Powers and duties of legislature; home rule powers of local governments; statute of local governments.

§2. (a) The legislature shall provide for the creation and organization of local governments [but apparently not their destruction] in such manner as shall secure to them the rights, powers, privileges and immunities granted to them by this constitution.

(b) Subject to the bill of rights of local governments and other applicable provisions of this constitution, the legislature:

(l) Shall enact, and may from time to time amend, a statute of local governments granting to local governments powers including but not limited to those of local legislation and administration in addition to the powers vested in them by this article. A power granted in such statute may be repealed, diminished, impaired or suspended only by enactment of a statute by the legislature with the approval of the governor at its regular session in one calendar year and the re-enactment and approval of such statute in the following calendar year.

(2) Shall have the power to act in relation to the property, affairs or government of any local government only by general law, or by special law only (a) on request of two-thirds of the total membership of its [the local government's] legislative body or on request of its [the local government's] chief executive officer concurred in by a majority of such membership, or (b) except in the case of the city of New York, on certificate of necessity from the governor reciting facts which in the judgment of the governor constitute an emergency requiring enactment of such law and, in such latter case, with the concurrence of two-thirds of the members elected to each house of the legislature.

In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk. :p

I agree with your analysis however our highest court is not the Supreme Court its called the Court of Appeals.

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Northwest Slobovia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12402
Founded: Sep 16, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:15 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.


In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk. :p

I agree with your analysis however our highest court is not the Supreme Court its called the Court of Appeals.

Damned picky New Yorkers. :P I didn't read the whole silly thing; I went looking for the rights of cities, 'cause I knew that some states had ceded certain powers and rights to them.
Gollum died for your sins.
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