My issues with cities

[Aguaria Major]

Rural populations have always been low, that’s why they’re rural. Cities really have nothing to do with it.

In pre-industrial societies, peasant-farmers were the majority of the population and only a minority of people lived in cities. That only really changed with the industrial revolution. Of course the industrial revolution did involve massive population growth, but the shift also was related to the mechanization of agriculture and the mass movement of rural people into cities to find jobs.

Cities, though, were the natural result of the specialization of labor, and have always been the centers of labor specialization since their invention; when fewer people needed to farm, they built cities, and that is where technological developments that have allowed for greater specialization happened, and so on and so on. Their constant growth and inevitably increasing share of the population is the result of specialization building on itself in an exponential fashion. This is why urbanization levels have been going up through almost all of modern history.

The industrial revolution was born in cities, not the other way around.

[Aguaria Major]

And population density was still low, because the total human population was only several hundred million.

Indeed. It seems as though over-population is becoming a signficant problem in the world nowadays.

So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.

[Adamede]

Indeed. It seems as though over-population is becoming a signficant problem in the world nowadays.

So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.

I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.

[Rusozak]

Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.

[San Lumen]

So what is your solution? Because based on the context of that comment, it seems like you're advocating for forceful regression into obsolete ways of living, where cities are artificially broken up and more people farm.

I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.

Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

[Kernen]

I mean that literally wouldn’t solve overpopulation at all regardless.

Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

[San Lumen]

Not to mention the government doesn’t have the authority to break up a city.

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

[Ethel mermania]

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

Tell that to Staten Island

[San Lumen]

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

Tell that to Staten Island

What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?

[Ethel mermania]

Tell that to Staten Island

What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?

They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously

[San Lumen]

What about them? If they want to form their own county again why don’t they hold a referendum?

They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously

I say let them have a referendum.

[Ethel mermania]

They are their own county. They have petitioned. (Though how many wanted it is up to debate) to be separated to be split from the city a couple times, particularly when the dumps garbage dumps were active. the state never took them seriously

I say let them have a referendum.

They did. From the wiki

The "Greater City" exists as a result of actions of the New York State Legislature, and, as such, could be reduced in size by the same mechanism. A non-binding referendum in the borough of Staten Island was held in 1993 to consider whether it should be allowed to secede from the City. The New York City government and Mayor David Dinkins opposed the vote, contending that the referendum should not be permitted by the state unless the city issued a home rule message supporting it, which the city would not. Governor Mario Cuomo disagreed, and the vote went forward. Ultimately, 65% of Staten Island residents voted to secede, through the approval of a new city charter making Staten Island an independent city, but implementation was blocked in the State Assembly.[21][22]

[Kernen]

Not strictly true. Any legislature with general police powers can almost certainly redesignate city boundaries to divide a city into smaller parts. So state legislatures almost certainly have that power.

They may lack the political will and means, but they have the power.

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

[San Lumen]

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.

[Kernen]

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_po ... tional_law)

Its a relatively basic constitutional concept. Albeit unusual to find outside policy and legal issues. Its not surprising.

[Ethel mermania]

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I’ve never heard of any such power.

Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.

[Kernen]

We can make a fairly easy distinction between power, or legal ability to enforce a policy or take action, and political ability, which requires procedural adherence to the lawmaking process and at least some measure of popular support. The NY State legislature will likely never have the consent of New Yorkers to divide New York City into ten thousand towns with equally small tax bases and the need for duplicative public works and administrations. That would be a patently insane policy. But political ability is not legal power.

Similarly, POTUS (any POTUS, not Trump) has the power to surrender the military, as commander in chief, to a foreign power. Or to declare that he or she would not order the military to fight an invasion were one to come. Or some variation on that. Doing so would almost certainly ensure he or she were not reelected. Running on that campaign would certainly ensure he or she were not elected. It may even trigger political attempts to remove him or her from office. That does not mean that he or she lacks the power to take that action in the first place.

[San Lumen]

I’ve never heard of any such power.

Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.

I didn’t know they did but it’s extremely doubtful any legislature would break up a city or county because they felt like it.

[Kernen]

Read the post above the one you just answered. Of course the state legislature has the power, the state charters the towns in the first place.

I didn’t know they did but it’s extremely doubtful any legislature would break up a city or county because they felt like it.

Well, yes. That was the caveat made at every turn...

[Shazbotdom]

Cities are an epicenter of cultural advancement. I much prefer to be here in New Orleans, where there is a mix of dozens of cultures, tons of different food styles, and music at nearly every single street corner throughout the Vieux Carre, Marigny, and other sections of the city.

[Adamede]

Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.

That’s is literally my worse nightmare as a biology enthusiast.

[San Lumen]

Just build an ecumenopolis. If everywhere's a city, no where's a city.

I’d rather not see Coruscant become a reality.

[Northwest Slobovia]

No I don’t think they do not to mention it would be extremely unpopular

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.

Powers and duties of legislature; home rule powers of local governments; statute of local governments.

§2. (a) The legislature shall provide for the creation and organization of local governments [but apparently not their destruction] in such manner as shall secure to them the rights, powers, privileges and immunities granted to them by this constitution.

(b) Subject to the bill of rights of local governments and other applicable provisions of this constitution, the legislature:

(l) Shall enact, and may from time to time amend, a statute of local governments granting to local governments powers including but not limited to those of local legislation and administration in addition to the powers vested in them by this article. A power granted in such statute may be repealed, diminished, impaired or suspended only by enactment of a statute by the legislature with the approval of the governor at its regular session in one calendar year and the re-enactment and approval of such statute in the following calendar year.

(2) Shall have the power to act in relation to the property, affairs or government of any local government only by general law, or by special law only (a) on request of two-thirds of the total membership of its [the local government's] legislative body or on request of its [the local government's] chief executive officer concurred in by a majority of such membership, or (b) except in the case of the city of New York, on certificate of necessity from the governor reciting facts which in the judgment of the governor constitute an emergency requiring enactment of such law and, in such latter case, with the concurrence of two-thirds of the members elected to each house of the legislature.

In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

Edit: this constitution is dated 2014, after the referendum Ethel mentioned upthread. NYC maybe have grabbed a few more rights to prevent a repeat of that.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk.

[San Lumen]

They do. That's called general police power.

They wouldn't. But they have the legal power. Its not barred by the Constitution, and anything not bared or limited by the federal constitution in the US is reserved to the state. NY state can totally break up NYC into 10,000 individual towns. They won't, and nobody will ever vote for that. But the legislature is possessed of the power.

I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.

Powers and duties of legislature; home rule powers of local governments; statute of local governments.

§2. (a) The legislature shall provide for the creation and organization of local governments [but apparently not their destruction] in such manner as shall secure to them the rights, powers, privileges and immunities granted to them by this constitution.

(b) Subject to the bill of rights of local governments and other applicable provisions of this constitution, the legislature:

(l) Shall enact, and may from time to time amend, a statute of local governments granting to local governments powers including but not limited to those of local legislation and administration in addition to the powers vested in them by this article. A power granted in such statute may be repealed, diminished, impaired or suspended only by enactment of a statute by the legislature with the approval of the governor at its regular session in one calendar year and the re-enactment and approval of such statute in the following calendar year.

(2) Shall have the power to act in relation to the property, affairs or government of any local government only by general law, or by special law only (a) on request of two-thirds of the total membership of its [the local government's] legislative body or on request of its [the local government's] chief executive officer concurred in by a majority of such membership, or (b) except in the case of the city of New York, on certificate of necessity from the governor reciting facts which in the judgment of the governor constitute an emergency requiring enactment of such law and, in such latter case, with the concurrence of two-thirds of the members elected to each house of the legislature.

In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk.

I agree with your analysis however our highest court is not the Supreme Court its called the Court of Appeals.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I'm no lawyer, but having read the NYS constitution, I don't think so.


In short, it appears that once NYS chartered NYC, it was beyond their control, except in terms of general laws about cities. There's a bit in the previous section about the rights of cities being interpretted liberally, so I think attempts to break up NYC with a "general" law that only affected it would be shot down by the NYS Supreme Court.

It wouldn't surprise me if other states with single, dominating cities have similar laws, simply because the city's residents wanted to prevent backwards, rural outsiders from meddling in the affairs of proper, civilized, cosmopolitan urban folk.

I agree with your analysis however our highest court is not the Supreme Court its called the Court of Appeals.

Damned picky New Yorkers. I didn't read the whole silly thing; I went looking for the rights of cities, 'cause I knew that some states had ceded certain powers and rights to them.