Do we even need police?

[Cordel One]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

As I've already said before, this just sounds like police reform with extra steps.

Police reform doesn't do enough.

[Adamede]

As I've already said before, this just sounds like police reform with extra steps.

Police reform doesn't do enough.

Than do more substantial reforms.

[Adamede]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

Almost like I wasn’t able to get a straight answer from the pro-abolitionists or anything.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

Almost like I wasn’t able to get a straight answer from the pro-abolitionists or anything.

So it changes the name and shifts the duties but does not eliminate the service.

[The Lone Alliance]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

There is no such way of creating a more accountable agency.

If you make an agency that is too much about accountability it will never get anything done because it will spend all it's time trying to cover it's ass claiming on how it is doing work instead of actually working.


Sounds like you want to create a new institution that will do nothing but allow you to pat yourself on the back and talk about how you fixed everything.

Your new institution will either be non functional or inevitably become the police with the same problems.

[Adamede]

Almost like I wasn’t able to get a straight answer from the pro-abolitionists or anything.

So it changes the name and shifts the duties but does not eliminate the service.

I guess. Most responses I’ve got where just people making strawmen out of my comments.

[Picairn]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

You forgot the part where police abolitionists failed to provide a clear answer for a replacement, instead relying on vague terms like "more accountable agencies" or downright terrible ideas like "letting the local militias patrol towns", which led to pro-police people talking among themselves and speculating what the replacements will look like.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

You forgot the part where police abolitionists failed to provide a clear answer for a replacement, instead relying on vague terms like "more accountable agencies" or downright terrible ideas like "letting the local militias patrol towns", which led to pro-police people talking among themselves and speculating what the replacements will look like.

Abolitionism is often radical reformism. Usually there is also a strong sense of hopelessness involved.

[Sanghyeok]

Almost like I wasn’t able to get a straight answer from the pro-abolitionists or anything.

So it changes the name and shifts the duties but does not eliminate the service.

You're wrong when you say we don't want to eliminate the "service of police", since we are arguing for elimination of many duties of police as they exist today.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

So it changes the name and shifts the duties but does not eliminate the service.

You're wrong when you say we don't want to eliminate the "service of police", since we are arguing for elimination of many duties of police as they exist today.

Which duties? I am curious. Not being antagonistic here.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

So it changes the name and shifts the duties but does not eliminate the service.

You're wrong when you say we don't want to eliminate the "service of police", since we are arguing for elimination of many duties of police as they exist today.

Ironically the police can at least be downsized in Japan.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I think police abolitionism is an almost exclusively African American demand. Mere abolition without further political changes is unlikely to satisfy the demand. My proposal is allowing majority African American areas to be autonomous regions / free federal cities independent from states if approved by voters. Then they can decide whether they want to abolish the police and if so what they want to replace the police with. They should also be allowed to pass criminal code that contradicts federal and state criminal code. They can legalize gambling and prostitution if they want to which helps their economy. This can solve many issues at once.

[Sanghyeok]

You're wrong when you say we don't want to eliminate the "service of police", since we are arguing for elimination of many duties of police as they exist today.

Ironically the police can at least be downsized in Japan.

Police can definitely be downsized in Japan, I'll agree with you there.

[Sanghyeok]

I think police abolitionism is an almost exclusively African American demand. Mere abolition without further political changes is unlikely to satisfy the demand. My proposal is allowing majority African American areas to be autonomous regions / free federal cities independent from states if approved by voters. Then they can decide whether they want to abolish the police and if so what they want to replace the police with. They should also be allowed to pass criminal code that contradicts federal and state criminal code. This can solve many issues at once.

It most certainly is not. Perhaps in the United States your claim is true but elsewhere it is completely false.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I think police abolitionism is an almost exclusively African American demand. Mere abolition without further political changes is unlikely to satisfy the demand. My proposal is allowing majority African American areas to be autonomous regions / free federal cities independent from states if approved by voters. Then they can decide whether they want to abolish the police and if so what they want to replace the police with. They should also be allowed to pass criminal code that contradicts federal and state criminal code. This can solve many issues at once.

It most certainly is not. Perhaps in the United States your claim is true but elsewhere it is completely false.

There is no need to abolish the police in Japan.

[Sanghyeok]

It most certainly is not. Perhaps in the United States your claim is true but elsewhere it is completely false.

There is no need to abolish the police in Japan.

Why do you say that? Japan desperately needs to abolish both the legal and police systems.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

There is no need to abolish the police in Japan.

Why do you say that? Japan desperately needs to abolish both the legal and police systems.

To be replaced by what?

[Sanghyeok]

You're wrong when you say we don't want to eliminate the "service of police", since we are arguing for elimination of many duties of police as they exist today.

Which duties? I am curious. Not being antagonistic here.

Police has unfortunately taken on more than its official duties, such that "law enforcement" only makes up 20% of their average workload in the US. By moving those duties such as social services and care to other ministries, police will no longer need their major funding, which will be the first step towards eventual abolition. Remember, "abolishing police" doesn't mean "abolishing essential services" or "abolishing crime prevention"; it merely means removing this responsibility from police (which police have not fulfilled well anyways).

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Which duties? I am curious. Not being antagonistic here.

Police has unfortunately taken on more than its official duties, such that "law enforcement" only makes up 20% of their average workload in the US. By moving those duties such as social services and care to other ministries, police will no longer need their major funding, which will be the first step towards eventual abolition. Remember, "abolishing police" doesn't mean "abolishing essential services" or "abolishing crime prevention"; it merely means removing this responsibility from police (which police have not fulfilled well anyways).

Ok. That’s a lot more reasonable.

[Nilokeras]

As is typical, the majority of this thread consists of pro-police people talking amongst themselves and creating imaginary arguments about anarchy while ignoring that the primary point of police abolition is not that the function of police services (law enforcement, public security, etc) should be eliminated, but that instead police services as institutions should be destroyed and reconstituted into other more accountable agencies.

As I've already said before, this just sounds like police reform with extra steps.

Correct. Those steps being the recognition of the police as being the result of a historical process of power accumulation and that the only remedy is abolition and complete reconstitution in several different agencies with entirely non-overlapping areas of functioning (ie public security and traffic enforcement).

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

I think police abolitionism is an almost exclusively African American demand. Mere abolition without further political changes is unlikely to satisfy the demand. My proposal is allowing majority African American areas to be autonomous regions / free federal cities independent from states if approved by voters. Then they can decide whether they want to abolish the police and if so what they want to replace the police with. They should also be allowed to pass criminal code that contradicts federal and state criminal code. They can legalize gambling and prostitution if they want to which helps their economy. This can solve many issues at once.

Why are people like you on my team?

Why is it that some people on the pro-police reform side think that the reason this is happening is purely for reasons that would only entice African-Americans? I mean at least when I thought police reform was an American issue, I could understand why most Americans would want it (I mean you don't have to go far to find police who are more busy with writing tickets than fighting crime). Assuming African-Americans are the only ones who don't like the police and/or the only ones affected by their financially-motivated (speculating here) policies is just downright absurd.

[Cordel One]

Police reform doesn't do enough.

Than do more substantial reforms.

Still won't do enough, it's rotten to the core

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

As I've already said before, this just sounds like police reform with extra steps.

Correct. Those steps being the recognition of the police as being the result of a historical process of power accumulation and that the only remedy is abolition and complete reconstitution in several different agencies with entirely non-overlapping areas of functioning (ie public security and traffic enforcement).

"Either policing becomes an actual law enforcement job or law enforcement is removed from it." Is that the position of abolitionists if I'm reading this correctly? If so, I'd be more open to the idea of "abolishing" the police (considering it wouldn't really be abolition, still just police reform with extra steps).

[Nilokeras]

Correct. Those steps being the recognition of the police as being the result of a historical process of power accumulation and that the only remedy is abolition and complete reconstitution in several different agencies with entirely non-overlapping areas of functioning (ie public security and traffic enforcement).

"Either policing becomes an actual law enforcement job or law enforcement is removed from it." Is that the position of abolitionists if I'm reading this correctly? If so, I'd be more open to the idea of "abolishing" the police (considering it wouldn't really be abolition, still just police reform with extra steps).

The problem is that 'law enforcement' as a portfolio for an entire agency is entirely too vague and a surefire recipe for mission creep and abuse, as well as duplicating effort that its better dealt with at differing levels of government. Is there a reason why every municipality needs its own conglomerated anti-criminal intelligence/counterintelligence, paramilitary security, traffic infraction and crisis counseling service? Abolitionism is the recognition that all of those functions are better allocated to their own specialists in new departments with dedicated training and budgetary support, and not rolled into the single role of 'police officer' as part of an agency with a very long and colourful history of abuse, corruption and violence.

[The Two Jerseys]

Why do you say that? Japan desperately needs to abolish both the legal and police systems.

To be replaced by what?

Autocratic rule by daimyo, enforced by samurai. *nods*