Do we even need police?

[Adamede]

Sure.

However those that will continue to exist despite it will need some form of picking force to deal with.

But you don't understand. Crime is entirely society's fault for not paying enough Danegeld. If we payed criminals more via unlimited welfare they'll politely refrain from murdering people. /s

Ah yes how forgetful of me. I forgot that the only true evil out there lies in the economy.

[Ifreann]

after the events that took place in Washington DC its apparent we do and hopefully it puts to rest the idea some have put forward of it being volunteer.

Why? How are these two things even related? Explain your reasoning, and do it without performative incredulity that I am daring to ask you to explain your reasoning.

---

Personally I think this strengthens the argument for police abolition. The American people voted Joe Biden into office, and when a mob showed up at government buildings to try and overturn that vote, the police let them in. The cops that murder unarmed black men in the streets over nothing won't even stand their ground to defend America's democracy, such as it is.

Well, I agree the police's conduct was bad, but it would make more sense just to fire the police who were too lenient towards the rioters and hire new people. The police should treat white rioters exactly the same way they treat minorities.

No, they shouldn't.

[Cordel One]

They don't do a good job, and now's exactly the time to be saying crap like this because their incompetence and sympathy led cultist rioters into the fucking capitol of the United States.

...thank you for proving that you didn't actually read what I was replying to in context. I'm just going to use Therm as my response to this, so thank you Thermodolia for giving me a quick way to respond to this.

Not all police departments are the same. The Capitol Police where the ones who basically side with the rioters while the DC police didn’t.

You can’t all x are y here

All X can be Y, but again my hands are tied beause it's against the rules to say more.

[Guelder]

Yes we need the police, without them crime would be rising, and the police is to protect and serve

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

Yes we need the police, without them crime would be rising, and the police is to protect and serve

If anything, Wednesday's catastrophe proves we need police to be effectively trained. Yes, the rioters got too close, but when the Capitol was being stormed from three different sides, it became like a full-blown battle. They had to use force.

[Guelder]

Yes we need the police, without them crime would be rising, and the police is to protect and serve

If anything, Wednesday's catastrophe proves we need police to be effectively trained. Yes, the rioters got too close, but when the Capitol was being stormed from three different sides, it became like a full-blown battle. They had to use force.

Actually, some officers did open the fences to let them in, yeah, that's asking for problems (no matter Trump Supporters or the terrorist groups BLM and/or antifa)

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

...thank you for proving that you didn't actually read what I was replying to in context. I'm just going to use Therm as my response to this, so thank you Thermodolia for giving me a quick way to respond to this.

All X can be Y, but again my hands are tied beause it's against the rules to say more.

No they can't, but that's besides the point. The capitol police certainly acted bad, but not all police in the D.C area acted bad.

[American Pere Housh]

Yes we do because who is going to enforce the laws on the book.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

Yes we do because who is going to enforce the laws on the book.

Exactly. We need to protect the people, its values, and its laws.

[Lanoraie II]

However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world

Stopped reading right there. You must be incredibly, inconceivably privileged to think this for even a second. I pity you, you have no clue what struggle is like if you think this is true in any capacity.

[Sanghyeok]

However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world

Stopped reading right there. You must be incredibly, inconceivably privileged to think this for even a second. I pity you, you have no clue what struggle is like if you think this is true in any capacity.

Do explain.

[Cordel One]

Stopped reading right there. You must be incredibly, inconceivably privileged to think this for even a second. I pity you, you have no clue what struggle is like if you think this is true in any capacity.

Do explain.

They play a key role in US-backed coups, we can't get rid of them.

[Lanoraie II]

Stopped reading right there. You must be incredibly, inconceivably privileged to think this for even a second. I pity you, you have no clue what struggle is like if you think this is true in any capacity.

Do explain.

I really don't have to. You should already know. And if you don't, well....Privilege. Feel grateful you don't know anybody who was facing domestic abuse, sex trafficking, robbery, etc. and was saved by an officer.

[Cordel One]

Do explain.

I really don't have to. You should already know. And if you don't, well....Privilege. Feel grateful you don't know anybody who was facing domestic abuse, sex trafficking, robbery, etc. and was saved by an officer.

I know people who were robbed and sexually assaulted by cops, and over 40% of cops are domestic abusers.

[Lanoraie II]

I really don't have to. You should already know. And if you don't, well....Privilege. Feel grateful you don't know anybody who was facing domestic abuse, sex trafficking, robbery, etc. and was saved by an officer.

I know people who were robbed and sexually assaulted by cops, and over 40% of cops are domestic abusers.

Good for you? That's not what this is about. Stop derailing. Also, that's 40% of American cops, sweetheart.

[Cordel One]

I know people who were robbed and sexually assaulted by cops, and over 40% of cops are domestic abusers.

Good for you? That's not what this is about. Stop derailing. Also, that's 40% of American cops, sweetheart.

Corrupt cops aren't just an issue intrinsic to the United States.

[Lanoraie II]

Good for you? That's not what this is about. Stop derailing. Also, that's 40% of American cops, sweetheart.

Corrupt cops aren't just an issue intrinsic to the United States.

Still derailing, you can stop now.

[Sanghyeok]

I know people who were robbed and sexually assaulted by cops, and over 40% of cops are domestic abusers.

Good for you? That's not what this is about. Stop derailing. Also, that's 40% of American cops, sweetheart.

Hardly derailing when you're claiming police help domestic abusers, and Cordel is telling you officers themselves are often a cause of abuse and assault themselves.

[Sanghyeok]

Do explain.

I really don't have to. You should already know. And if you don't, well....Privilege. Feel grateful you don't know anybody who was facing domestic abuse, sex trafficking, robbery, etc. and was saved by an officer.

I am priveleged. I am priveleged to have never suffered from laws that target the poor for minor offenses, for example, or beat by police at protests.

[Lanoraie II]

I really don't have to. You should already know. And if you don't, well....Privilege. Feel grateful you don't know anybody who was facing domestic abuse, sex trafficking, robbery, etc. and was saved by an officer.

I am priveleged. I am priveleged to have never suffered from laws that target the poor for minor offenses, for example, or beat by police at protests.

1. It is derailment and not what I asked or stated. This isn't about the problematic police.
2. You are also privileged to never had to call for them in your time of need, and to even state that the way you did is honestly kind of repulsive because it shows how grossly ignorant you are to the world.

[Sanghyeok]

Yes we do because who is going to enforce the laws on the book.

Exactly. We need to protect the people, its values, and its laws.

Let's discuss this step by step.

First: "police protect laws". If that was true, we would see police going after tax evasion, illegal emissions, wage theft, workplace abuse, corruption, and so on. But instead they decide to spend most of their time going after petty drug users, traffic violations, and small thieves.

Next: "police protect people". If people felt the police were there to protect them, they wouldn't hesitate to report matters to police. Yet, according to Baughman (2020), less than half of all crimes are reported for following reasons: "the majority of individuals (between 30%–40%) dealt with the crime independently, as they considered it a “personal matter.” Another 20% or so did not report the crime because the victim felt it was not important enough to report to police. And finally, about 30%–40% of individuals did not report because they believed that police would not or could not help, feared reprisal, or feared getting the offender in trouble if they reported". Even when they are reported, clearance (solving) rates are quite terrible. To quote Kowani's excellent post once again,

Take a guess, your best, at what percentage of crime the police solve. 40? 50? 60?
Would you accept a 60% failure rate? No? Good.
Because the police do even worse. The true clearance rate (crimes where a formal charge is laid) has been 10%. For the past 30 years. And the arrest rate, exactly the same. 10%. And it gets worse. When you take convictions into account, 41% of murderers got away scot-free, as did 88% of rapists, 96% of robbers, 93% of assailants, and 97% of burglars. Larceny was particularly bad, with the conviction rate not even reaching a full percent.
It's not for lack of effort, either. After all, the police only spend 4% of their time on violent crime. Most of their time is spent on either non-criminal calls or traffic work.

Finally, let me address your main concern regarding "values." Just whose values are being protected? If you mean the people's values and what they care about, then police are doing quite terrible once again- time and again arresting and attacking nonviolent protestors- not just last year's protests against widespread police brutality in the US of course, but also across the world against strikers, farmers, climate change activists and many more.

Again, I hope you understand that although your positive views on police as "law, justice, order, and peace" are widespread in our society, they tend to be inaccurate. Police as a system are not your friends, and the "good police officer" is an exception, not the rule.

[Sanghyeok]

I am priveleged. I am priveleged to have never suffered from laws that target the poor for minor offenses, for example, or beat by police at protests.

1. It is derailment and not what I asked or stated. This isn't about the problematic police.
2. You are also privileged to never had to call for them in your time of need, and to even state that the way you did is honestly kind of repulsive because it shows how grossly ignorant you are to the world.

This thread is about the necessity of police, you claim police are necessary due to preventing abuse, Cordel told you how police cause a great deal of abuse themselves.
About your second point: what would police be able to help me with if I did need assistance? If there's a robber I'm afraid their case solving rate is rather low, and if it's a murderer or kidnapper I'm already dead or worse.

[Weebopilis]

Listen, I am not going to name my opinion on this matter, as then those who disagree with me will ignore what I say. But trust me when I say acting witty and throwing insults back and forth will not solve anything, or make the opposing party agree with you. I know we aren’t politicians so nothing we say will change things for better or worse. But, I do not think that mocking your opponent will help them agree with you. So, if we are going to continue this futile argument, at least try to persuade the opposing party by treating them like a person. I know I’m gonna get a lot of hate for this, but I don’t care. It’s not my fault if people would rather despise than treat equally.

[The Grand World Order]

Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

I support this plan, because then my industry buddies and I can charge you and other out-of-touch-with-reality idealists $300/hr to ensure your survival in the world you'll create. Or, you can take your chances with the crackheads and general other denizens you've thus far been privileged to not have to deal with- and contrary to what you might think, spouting social theory won't stop anyone intent on making your things their things.

Your ideals might work in Norway, or Switzerland. They are actively in place in most of the world. They do not play out well in most of the world.

You are privileged, but not in the way that you think you are. You are privileged for not having the experience of the world outside of what I'm confident was a rather sheltered life where it's considered improper to consider the nature of violence, and where you didn't have tweakers stabbing each other on your front porch with broken glass from your front window because they're both trying to fuck your mom (who is interested in neither one and never was.) What you must understand, is that the relative tranquility of most of the Western world is an anomaly.


That said, I do acknowledge that American police have some serious cultural issues, namely that they drank the "hur dur I'm a sheepdawg" kool-aid and think that they're Chris Kyle invading Fallujah every time they put their badge on. Many American cops lack interpersonal skills, and much like how a bad leader has to rely on "You have to do what I say because I'm the boss," bad cops are relying on "You have to do what I say because I'll kick your ass and get away with it if you don't."

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Do explain.

They play a key role in US-backed coups, we can't get rid of them.

Ah yes, the infamous police coups. Have you already forgotten that being in the police is a civilian job and not a military one?