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Do we even need police?

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Kingdom Of Deutchland
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Founded: Dec 14, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingdom Of Deutchland » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:37 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

On word: Yes. :)

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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:40 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
And still answerless.

I've given plenty of answers, even if most of them are taken from Kowani.

Ah I see. That doesn’t work. Not all crimes are caused by poverty.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:42 pm

Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:I've given plenty of answers, even if most of them are taken from Kowani.

Ah I see. That doesn’t work. Not all crimes are caused by poverty.

Nor do I claim all of them do. But I remain confident the vast majority would not occur if improved material conditions (here I mean physical, societal, and mental) were available.
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Nekostan-e Gharbi
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Postby Nekostan-e Gharbi » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:44 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Ah I see. That doesn’t work. Not all crimes are caused by poverty.

Nor do I claim all of them do. But I remain confident the vast majority would not occur if improved material conditions (here I mean physical, societal, and mental) were available.


Where do you live? It actually fits the agricultural NE Asian model well. With better social programs I can imagine the low crime rate in Japan getting even lower.

But for the rest of the world it is less true. For example religious, ethnic and tribal feuds exist. No amount of social democratic policies can fix that. Conscious nation building that is often not very nice will be necessary to stop these feuds. Sexual sadist crimes also exist. What are you going to do about that? Sociopaths are not very easy to catch by state-mandated mental health checks.
Last edited by Nekostan-e Gharbi on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Welcome to the Nekostan-e Gharbi. Our ancestors were a group of genetically enhanced Israeli cats raised by two Iranian Jewish women, Rachel Davidi and Esther Moshel. We are a constitutional monarchy where a line of benevolent and powerless feline queens “guide” the citizens or more precisely are the subject of their constant gossiping.

Current Queen: Sarah IV (House of Moshel)
Current Prime Minister: Dr. Elisheva Cohen (she is fine with Elizabeth for non-Hebrew speakers) from Likud
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Bienenhalde
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:03 pm

Ifreann wrote:Personally I think this strengthens the argument for police abolition. The American people voted Joe Biden into office, and when a mob showed up at government buildings to try and overturn that vote, the police let them in. The cops that murder unarmed black men in the streets over nothing won't even stand their ground to defend America's democracy, such as it is.


Well, I agree the police's conduct was bad, but it would make more sense just to fire the police who were too lenient towards the rioters and hire new people. The police should treat white rioters exactly the same way they treat minorities.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:22 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Muralos wrote:I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

Personally I think this strengthens the argument for police abolition. The American people voted Joe Biden into office, and when a mob showed up at government buildings to try and overturn that vote, the police let them in. The cops that murder unarmed black men in the streets over nothing won't even stand their ground to defend America's democracy, such as it is.

Not all police departments are the exact same you know. The DC Metro Police curb stomped the Trumpists that night and the night before.

DC metro doesn’t protect the Capitol, the US Capitol Police does
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:25 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Personally I think this strengthens the argument for police abolition. The American people voted Joe Biden into office, and when a mob showed up at government buildings to try and overturn that vote, the police let them in. The cops that murder unarmed black men in the streets over nothing won't even stand their ground to defend America's democracy, such as it is.

Not all police departments are the exact same you know. The DC Metro Police curb stomped the Trumpists that night and the night before.

DC metro doesn’t protect the Capitol, the US Capitol Police does

Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.
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Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:26 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Not all police departments are the exact same you know. The DC Metro Police curb stomped the Trumpists that night and the night before.

DC metro doesn’t protect the Capitol, the US Capitol Police does

Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

Per the usual you have extremely bad takes
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Dominioan wrote:As long as there are laws, someone needs to enforce them. But the police have shown they aren't very good at that...

Well self enforcement has an even shittier track record.
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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:46 pm

Adamede wrote:
Dominioan wrote:As long as there are laws, someone needs to enforce them. But the police have shown they aren't very good at that...

Well self enforcement has an even shittier track record.

It's almost like there's a reason why the saying "he better hope that the police get to him first" exists...
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:18 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

Per the usual you have extremely bad takes

I swear to god I’m losing brain cells.
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Cordel One
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cordel One » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:21 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

Per the usual you have extremely bad takes

I take it you misspelled "based".

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:28 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Per the usual you have extremely bad takes

I take it you misspelled "based".

That would just make the takes even dumber.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:25 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Not all police departments are the exact same you know. The DC Metro Police curb stomped the Trumpists that night and the night before.

DC metro doesn’t protect the Capitol, the US Capitol Police does

Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

sigh

I at least understood you when I responded to your comments, but this is truly where you've gone off the deep end. The police do a good job, but what do you and Cordel One have to say?

"They shouldn't exist either."

I mean, at least read the room (er... forum) guys. Now's not the time to be saying crap like this.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:27 pm

Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

sigh

I at least understood you when I responded to your comments, but this is truly where you've gone off the deep end. The police do a good job, but what do you and Cordel One have to say?

"They shouldn't exist either."

I mean, at least read the room (er... forum) guys. Now's not the time to be saying crap like this.

They don't do a good job, and now's exactly the time to be saying crap like this because their incompetence and sympathy led cultist rioters into the fucking capitol of the United States.
Last edited by Cordel One on Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:31 pm

Sanghyeok wrote:Good for them. They shouldn't exist either.

is this a joke
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SD_Film Artists
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Founded: Jun 10, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:17 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
And still answerless.

I've given plenty of answers, even if most of them are taken from Kowani.


That was a post replying to someone else, quoting Kowani who inturn was replying to someone else, not a reply to me. As for the relevance of Kowani's quote in regards to my previous post, it doesn't address the issue of mental health (quoted for your convenience below) and as for 'With no police, who will stop violent criminals?' Kowani himself in that same post said that he doesn't have an answer for that.

Also what Nekostan-e Gharbi said.

Edit: Sorry I know you're not obliged to answer like I'm your manager or something but I'm surprised that we don't have an alternative after so many pages.

SD_Film Artists wrote:Rich people still commit crimes, and it's rather insulting to people with mental health issues to be put in the same boat as yesterday's rioters. If anything physiological is going on it's an over reliance on political echo chambers and the general polarisation of US politics.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:23 am

Cordel One wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:sigh

I at least understood you when I responded to your comments, but this is truly where you've gone off the deep end. The police do a good job, but what do you and Cordel One have to say?

"They shouldn't exist either."

I mean, at least read the room (er... forum) guys. Now's not the time to be saying crap like this.

They don't do a good job, and now's exactly the time to be saying crap like this because their incompetence and sympathy led cultist rioters into the fucking capitol of the United States.

Not all police departments are the same. The Capitol Police where the ones who basically side with the rioters while the DC police didn’t.

You can’t all x are y here
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I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies

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The United Confederacy of Texas
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Postby The United Confederacy of Texas » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:30 am

Yes, but there needs to be significant reforms and changes to how cops respond, and we need to curb the militarization of police (I don't have an issue with having SWAT or trained officers to respond to high-level threats, North Hollywood taught us the necessity of having trained officers for scenarios like that, but selling MRAPs to police departments and giving them second-rate military equipment just goes into the absurd)
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:35 am

The United Confederacy of Texas wrote:Yes, but there needs to be significant reforms and changes to how cops respond, and we need to curb the militarization of police (I don't have an issue with having SWAT or trained officers to respond to high-level threats, North Hollywood taught us the necessity of having trained officers for scenarios like that, but selling MRAPs to police departments and giving them second-rate military equipment just goes into the absurd)

Kowani wrote:We spend this money on ever more militarized police forces, mostly to focus on average crimes. SWAT, for example, does not spend most of its time dealing with active violent situations, like hostage crises or snipers. Instead,62% of SWAT deployments are for drug searches, and 79% of all SWAT deployments are on the basis of a search warrant.
Imagine, if you will, being woken up at 6:00 a.m by a raid on your neighbor's home. Black-clad troopers, in military vehicles, deploying a distraction device, breaking the door down with a battering ram, all to find a small amount of marijuana.
Would you trust them to adequately respond to your concerns?
No?
You're not alone. Militarizing the police doesn't make them any better at their jobs-but it does make people trust them less. And-in a theme we'll return to, it disproportionately hurts minorities, even when you account for crime rates.
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SD_Film Artists wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:I've given plenty of answers, even if most of them are taken from Kowani.


That was a post replying to someone else, quoting Kowani who inturn was replying to someone else, not a reply to me. As for the relevance of Kowani's quote in regards to my previous post, it doesn't address the issue of mental health (quoted for your convenience below) and as for 'With no police, who will stop violent criminals?' Kowani himself in that same post said that he doesn't have an answer for that.

Also what Nekostan-e Gharbi said.

SD_Film Artists wrote:Rich people still commit crimes, and it's rather insulting to people with mental health issues to be put in the same boat as yesterday's rioters. If anything physiological is going on it's an over reliance on political echo chambers and the general polarisation of US politics.

i will attempt to address the idea of replacement when the country is not actively on fire, though it will be poor
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Liberal Democracy of Alkebulan
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Postby Liberal Democracy of Alkebulan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:36 am

Life must be really good and safe out there to even discuss the need to have a police force.

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The United Confederacy of Texas
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The United Confederacy of Texas » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:50 am

Kowani wrote:-snip
i will attempt to address the idea of replacement when the country is not actively on fire, though it will be poor

Respectfully, I have to disagree towards replacing the police, but I say part of my views are shaped by what happened in Dallas back in 2016 (especially since I live close to Dallas and we received warnings not to go there, plus the officers resorted to killing the shooter with a robot after the situation escalated into a standoff and it was determined that the officers who died could have survived had they been allowed to wear plate carriers but were told not to wear them due to the focus on militarization at the time, which led to the police chief issuing an order against wearing plate carriers or carrying AR-15s), though I still hold that day-to-day duties do not require military-grade gear.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:31 am

Cordel One wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:sigh

I at least understood you when I responded to your comments, but this is truly where you've gone off the deep end. The police do a good job, but what do you and Cordel One have to say?

"They shouldn't exist either."

I mean, at least read the room (er... forum) guys. Now's not the time to be saying crap like this.

They don't do a good job, and now's exactly the time to be saying crap like this because their incompetence and sympathy led cultist rioters into the fucking capitol of the United States.

...thank you for proving that you didn't actually read what I was replying to in context. I'm just going to use Therm as my response to this, so thank you Thermodolia for giving me a quick way to respond to this.
Thermodolia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:They don't do a good job, and now's exactly the time to be saying crap like this because their incompetence and sympathy led cultist rioters into the fucking capitol of the United States.

Not all police departments are the same. The Capitol Police where the ones who basically side with the rioters while the DC police didn’t.

You can’t all x are y here
Last edited by Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire on Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:36 am

Sanghyeok wrote:
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Ah I see. That doesn’t work. Not all crimes are caused by poverty.

Nor do I claim all of them do. But I remain confident the vast majority would not occur if improved material conditions (here I mean physical, societal, and mental) were available.

Sure.

However those that will continue to exist despite it will need some form of picking force to deal with.
22yo male. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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SD_Film Artists
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Ex-Nation

Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:31 am

Adamede wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:Nor do I claim all of them do. But I remain confident the vast majority would not occur if improved material conditions (here I mean physical, societal, and mental) were available.

Sure.

However those that will continue to exist despite it will need some form of picking force to deal with.


But you don't understand. Crime is entirely society's fault for not paying enough Danegeld. If we payed criminals more via welfare they'll politely refrain from commiting murder and arson for their Essential Needs™. /s
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.

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