Do we even need police?

[United Dependencies]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

It doesn't change my opinion vis a vis, the existence of policing itself.

Right wing militia type groups aren't going to go away overnight. The government has a responsibility to defend against those who would overthrow our institutions. That's going to require armed state actors a/k/a police.

Now, how we recruit, train, monitor, and hold officers accountable is in need of some major changes, but this event hasn't changed any of my views there.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

Shall the police exist in Japan? Yes?

[Sanghyeok]

Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

Shall the police exist in Japan? Yes?

Ideally, I think police wouldn't exist anywhere.

[Sanghyeok]

You've asked an excellent question. I'll try to write an effort response tomorrow on my feelings.

Appreciate the reply; I would be interested in reading that!

So my thoughts on policing following yesterday's incident:

I don't believe my views have changed much, if at all. I still support eventual abolition of police, along with drastic reduction in force and reforms immediately that change what police are used for. Perhaps small detachments of police can remain in the near future for protection of key persons (in addition to general security functions on a smaller scale), but I think shifting funding to other areas would still be more efficient not just reacting to crime, but also preventing them by lowering incentives. Yesterday's incident, in my opinion, would not have happened if those people's needs (economic, especially, but also mental) were taken care of.

[Ifreann]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

Personally I think this strengthens the argument for police abolition. The American people voted Joe Biden into office, and when a mob showed up at government buildings to try and overturn that vote, the police let them in. The cops that murder unarmed black men in the streets over nothing won't even stand their ground to defend America's democracy, such as it is.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Yes, but we need to make sure that they're actually qualified.

I feel like the police earn such a negative reputation because the current structure of the police force in the United States (particularly thanks to the militarization of the police via the War on Drugs) encourages abuse. If we were to cut down on easily abusable elements and actually screen police officers to make sure that they aren't going to abuse their powers, then the police wouldn't be so "bad" here in the US. The rule of law is supposed to be universal, so why can't the police bend to the rule of law as well?

The problem- not just in the US but in many other countries- is that police becomes a tool used overwhelmingly against the poor, suffers internal corruption to amazing amounts, and simply is ineffective in many cases.

Again, restructuring and screening of officers will deal with the latter two. The former, however, is not so much a problem of police as it is of government. That is a sign that the way the police are administered by our current government needs to change, and therefore we need to rid ourselves of the current neoliberal regimes and their ruling elites (which I'm honestly all for).

Funny how socialism advocates for the end of prejudice and yet someone such as yourself prejudices the entirety of law enforcement.

We are not saying anything about law enforcement officers themselves, but rather the system within which they operate. Even the finest ingredients will make a terrible soufflé if the oven's temperature is wrong. Similarly, "good people" (whichever that means) joining police forces will be forced into certain corrupt and classist roles by their environment and position.

Yeah, but does that really mean that every single police officer is forced to become corrupt and classist? I mean for crying out loud, in the Wehrmacht, a worse institution, there were still soldiers like Anton Schmid who were saving Jews from Hitler's horrific Holocaust in Europe. If there were good people who stood up to defy what their institution stood for in something as terrible as the Holocaust, then how much do you want to bet that there are quite a few officers who refuse to take on that corrupt role?

All I'm saying here is not to generalize about "the system" or officers in "the system." The system is quite complex and varies depending on where you live, for better or worse. Yes, it's a terrible system that unjustly leads to the deaths of minority groups here in the United States, but that's not to say the system can't be saved. Scrapping the police entirely will only cause more issues with less results. Reforming the police, even if it's more difficult, will lead to far fewer issues and will bring forward more results as those who are actually qualified take on the role of law enforcement.

And just to finish that connection to the Holocaust, we didn't abolish the entire country of Germany after WWII because of this dark period of history. We reformed it, rebuilt it, until it was better than what it used to be. Yes, it was hard, and it took a combined effort from occupying and local forces to fix the German system, but it still got done with far better results.

[Crystaloria]

Yeah I think so.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

Only demonstrates why we need to reform the police before it's too late. This wouldn't have happened had the police been more competent and less corrupt, which is why we need to cut down on elements of abuse while screening for more competent and outstanding officers.

I would like to add that part of my plan would be moving funds from weapons to training, because it seems the police are too weaponized and don't have enough training.

[SD_Film Artists]

Appreciate the reply; I would be interested in reading that!

So my thoughts on policing following yesterday's incident:

I don't believe my views have changed much, if at all. I still support eventual abolition of police, along with drastic reduction in force and reforms immediately that change what police are used for. Perhaps small detachments of police can remain in the near future for protection of key persons (in addition to general security functions on a smaller scale), but I think shifting funding to other areas would still be more efficient not just reacting to crime, but also preventing them by lowering incentives.

With no police, who will stop violent criminals? And no they won't stop themselves just from being paid-off with welfare. You've still yet to answer which part of your linked source said that the crimes were for "essential needs".

Yesterday's incident, in my opinion, would not have happened if those people's needs (economic, especially, but also mental) were taken care of.

Rich people still commit crimes, and it's rather insulting to people with mental health issues to be put in the same boat as yesterday's rioters. If anything physiological is going on it's an over reliance on political echo chambers and the general polarisation of US politics.

[San Lumen]

after the events that took place in Washington DC its apparent we do and hopefully it puts to rest the idea some have put forward of it being volunteer.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Shall the police exist in Japan? Yes?

Ideally, I think police wouldn't exist anywhere.

Ok. Do you support militias then? If John murders Jack what shall be done about it?

[Cordel One]

Police in America are useless and corrupt.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

Ideally, I think police wouldn't exist anywhere.

Ok. Do you support militias then? If John murders Jack what shall be done about it?

He should be arrested and given a right to a fair and speedy trial, as is explicated in the 6^th Amendment (if he's American and/or commits the crime in America), and then he should be sentenced.

Violent criminals are the reason the police are necessary--to protect the people and the state.

[San Lumen]

Police in America are useless and corrupt.

what a ridiculous generalization

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ok. Do you support militias then? If John murders Jack what shall be done about it?

He should be arrested and given a right to a fair and speedy trial, as is explicated in the 6^th Amendment (if he's American and/or commits the crime in America), and then he should be sentenced.

Violent criminals are the reason the police are necessary--to protect the people and the state.

I know. But I do wonder what police abolitionists want.

[Sanghyeok]

He should be arrested and given a right to a fair and speedy trial, as is explicated in the 6^th Amendment (if he's American and/or commits the crime in America), and then he should be sentenced.

Violent criminals are the reason the police are necessary--to protect the people and the state.

I know. But I do wonder what police abolitionists want.

Still here.

[Sanghyeok]

Police in America are useless and corrupt.

what a ridiculous generalization

Here we go again. Kowani, I'm citing you once more.

First, to answer the question of "do we need police", we have to ask a different question: What do police do?


And they make this worse.
Most of us, I assume, have heard of "civil asset forfeiture", where the police seize possessions without a trial, on the mere suspicion that you used it to commit a crime. Over the past 20 years, that gave the federal government a nice little boost of 40 Billion-and the state and local levels are even larger. In some years, they actually took more than burglars. And why wouldn't they? It's a powerful incentive, practically untouchable.
But does it make us safer? No. Not at all. In fact, just the opposite. The more the police focused on seizing property and collecting fines, the worse they got at actually solving crime.
Oh, and don't expect to get your stuff back, even if you're innocent, by the way. You don't just have to prove your innocence-you have to prove the officers' belief that it was being used in a crime to have been unreasonable.
Good luck with that.

Am I being too harsh on the police?
I don't think so. They protect themselves pretty well. After all, according to the police themselves, 62% of them don't always report serious criminal abuses by other cops, and 52% of them thought it was normal for police to outright ignore misconduct by their colleagues.
How can we expect them to police the streets when they can't even police themselves?
And even the rare case of an officer getting fired for abuses or criminal behaviour doesn't stop them-they'll just get a job at another department.

Much has been made of the idea that the police are racist, systemically so.
There are many examples we could use, such as the fact that blacks and latinos were more likely stopped and frisked, despite the fact that whites were more likely to have contraband, that minorities are less likely to receive a discount on their speeding ticket, or that the disparity in traffic stops entirely disappears at night (which, for the inevitable apologists, destroys both class and criminality arguments), etc.

But what if it went both ways? What if being a minority actually made it less likely your murder would be solved, or that the police would treat you with less respect when they interacted with you?
Wouldn't you find this whole system unfair, and deeply rotten?
I do.


I don't pretend to have a solution to the question of "so what do we replace the police with?"
At least, not yet.
My only goal here is to demonstrate that as it exists, the institution of policing is deeply nonfunctional, and needs to be replaced with something else.

I

[Dominioan]

As long as there are laws, someone needs to enforce them. But the police have shown they aren't very good at that...

[Resilient Acceleration]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

It doesn't change my opinion vis a vis, the existence of policing itself.

Right wing militia type groups aren't going to go away overnight. The government has a responsibility to defend against those who would overthrow our institutions. That's going to require armed state actors a/k/a police.

Now, how we recruit, train, monitor, and hold officers accountable is in need of some major changes, but this event hasn't changed any of my views there.

Or you can adopt our strategy of giving up in controlling the right wing millitias, and instead set regulations on how they can operate, allowing them to peacefully extort local businesses (in an orderly manner) to fund themselves as long as they cooperate to maintain the public security. If one groups starts becoming too naughty, the government reserves the right to disband them—using the power of other millitia and mass organizations to do that.

Really, without the police, it isn't very hard for independent groups such as these to take their place. We can still have a peaceful society, don't get me wrong, but it does mean bad luck for Christian minorities in a hardline Islamist neighborhood with hardline Islamist community policing.

[The Astrocracy]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

I mean, on the one hand, yes, the police dispersed the crowd and got things running smoothly again, but then again, on the other hand, there's the qestion of why there weren't more police guarding what should have be the one of the most secure buildings in the country and why they didn't do more to try to stop these people from getting in. I'm in favor of police reform, but not abolition. so maybe this is an argument for reform?

[Intaglio]

Well, if a violent criminal breaks into my house, tries to mug me, maim me, kill me or generally harm me and mine, a police officer would be useful, so yeah, I'd say we should keep them.

Would they? Probably only after the fact. You'd still be mugged, maimed, killed or generally harmed, you'd just have to hope they catch the person who did it.. good luck.

Insurance is probably more useful than a police officer in that scenario.

Well, if the police got there in time, they could prevent it; such has happened in real life.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

The police exists precisely to protect those less willing to use or capable of violence and prevent extreme social waste caused by people investing extensively on defense.

[SD_Film Artists]

I know. But I do wonder what police abolitionists want.

Still here.

And still answerless.

[Sanghyeok]

Still here.

And still answerless.

I've given plenty of answers, even if most of them are taken from Kowani.

[The Astrocracy]

What has happened those high crime areas is that the police don't care about those areas. The main reason is the fact that it is a war between the drug gangs and the police. The police forces are on high alert in those areas or avoid them entirely. The drug gangs win and take over. This is what is happening in high crime areas of the US. Go see it for yourself. I've lived in those areas and will never again. It is a joke to me to blame historic racism. There's no sign of this ever ending.

Someone gets gunned down on the street in broad daylight in the hood.

Police respond and take witness statements; amazingly, absolutely nobody saw or heard anything.

The people who didn't provide the police with any useful information start bitching and moaning because the police are "taking too long" to find the killer.

The police manage to put together enough evidence to identify the suspect and go in to arrest him; the suspect pulls a out a gun and gets shot by the police.

Immediately, some idiot on Twitter fabricates the narrative that the police murdered a literal saint in cold blood, the media jumps on it and starts plastering footage of the suspect's mother crying about how he was a good boy who didn't do anything all over the TV, and then everybody in the neighborhood starts rioting and attacking cops.

And then everybody wonders why the police start ignoring that neighborhood...

Does it occur to you that not everybody in that neighborhood is on the same side? Does it occur to you that in an area where criminals basically control everything that people may be too scared to talk to the police for fear of reprecussions by said criminials? And why do you assume that your scenario is what comes first, rather than the police having already abandoned such a neighborhood because it's low-income and struggling with crime already?