Do we even need police?

[Bombadil]

HK rent is insane, and equality isn't good either. I'm certainly agreeing that a lot of crime is economic but not every poor person goes to crime, there's a lot of doorways that lead to that choice and being exempt from community, or in a particular criminal community, is probably a major factor. I would argue a major doorway is being in a community that feels the consequences of committing crime are not that high given they're oppressed and punished by society anyway so.. who gives, what's the difference?

To be fair there's different sorts of crimes that require different approaches but, for me at least, less and less I see the police being required for those approaches.

As a Libertarian, I would love to see a decrease in police. But I also want to be safe from crime which is why I generally support the police

Well I'm a.. what's the word for someone who believes in communal participation for the greater good.. a.. hmm.. a communist.. but without the 'no private property or enterprise' stuff.

[Romextly]

As a Libertarian, I would love to see a decrease in police. But I also want to be safe from crime which is why I generally support the police

If you want to be safe from crime you might want to consider increasing welfare and rehabilitation budgets and building more homes for the poor.

1. Increasing welfare. I'm a freaking Libertarian. No
2. Rehabilitation budget. Sure.Put 511 million dollars of Planned parenthood into this and I am for this
3. Um. I'm pretty sure there are organizations doing this, but sure, I'll donate

[Sanghyeok]

If you want to be safe from crime you might want to consider increasing welfare and rehabilitation budgets and building more homes for the poor.

1. Increasing welfare. I'm a freaking Libertarian. No
2. Rehabilitation budget. Sure.Put 511 million dollars of Planned parenthood into this and I am for this
3. Um. I'm pretty sure there are organizations doing this, but sure, I'll donate

1. Well then I'm afraid you won't be seeing a decrease in crime then.
2. You're "libertarian".
3. There are organisations doing this, but they lack both labour power and funding.

[Romextly]

1. Increasing welfare. I'm a freaking Libertarian. No
2. Rehabilitation budget. Sure.Put 511 million dollars of Planned parenthood into this and I am for this
3. Um. I'm pretty sure there are organizations doing this, but sure, I'll donate

1. Well then I'm afraid you won't be seeing a decrease in crime then.
2. You're "libertarian".
3. There are organisations doing this, but they lack both labour power and funding.

1. Probably won't, will I.
2. I'm just saying some of the tax money we are using up in some things, I would rather have them pay in others.
3. Yeah. They do need the funding and labor. But I don't see the solution in this in the near future

[Cordel One]

1. Well then I'm afraid you won't be seeing a decrease in crime then.
2. You're "libertarian".
3. There are organisations doing this, but they lack both labour power and funding.

1. Probably won't, will I.
2. I'm just saying some of the tax money we are using up in some things, I would rather have them pay in others.
3. Yeah. They do need the funding and labor. But I don't see the solution in this in the near future

1. nope
2. Then cut the police and military, they're the biggest drains on our budget.
3. The state could give them bits of the above cut budgets and you'd still save.

[Sanghyeok]

1. Well then I'm afraid you won't be seeing a decrease in crime then.
2. You're "libertarian".
3. There are organisations doing this, but they lack both labour power and funding.

1. Probably won't, will I.
2. I'm just saying some of the tax money we are using up in some things, I would rather have them pay in others.
3. Yeah. They do need the funding and labor. But I don't see the solution in this in the near future

I think you should understand how 1 and 3 are conflicting.

[Romextly]

1. Probably won't, will I.
2. I'm just saying some of the tax money we are using up in some things, I would rather have them pay in others.
3. Yeah. They do need the funding and labor. But I don't see the solution in this in the near future

1. nope
2. Then cut the police and military, they're the biggest drains on our budget.
3. The state could give them bits of the above cut budgets and you'd still save.

Well, yeah. I do support cutting off a bit of the military budget. In fact if NATO countries actually met their 2% GDP, then yeah, I would be all for it.

[Sanghyeok]

1. nope
2. Then cut the police and military, they're the biggest drains on our budget.
3. The state could give them bits of the above cut budgets and you'd still save.

Well, yeah. I do support cutting off a bit of the military budget. In fact if NATO countries actually met their 2% GDP, then yeah, I would be all for it.

How about reducing NATO's presence?

[Cordel One]

1. nope
2. Then cut the police and military, they're the biggest drains on our budget.
3. The state could give them bits of the above cut budgets and you'd still save.

Well, yeah. I do support cutting off a bit of the military budget. In fact if NATO countries actually met their 2% GDP, then yeah, I would be all for it.

Supporting NATO in general isn't very libertarian of you.

[Romextly]

Well, yeah. I do support cutting off a bit of the military budget. In fact if NATO countries actually met their 2% GDP, then yeah, I would be all for it.

How about reducing NATO's presence?

That too. There are wars, in which we should pull out of

[The Two Jerseys]

Sailor Moon has a message on policing:

(Image)

Meme arguments?

Shit I might as well quote some FBI statistics if you don’t care anymore.

Make sure to quote those statistics out of context so that it creates a misleading, emotionally-charged argument, apparently that's enough to convince Sailor Moon...

[Sanghyeok]

Meme arguments?

Shit I might as well quote some FBI statistics if you don’t care anymore.

Make sure to quote those statistics out of context so that it creates a misleading, emotionally-charged argument, apparently that's enough to convince Sailor Moon...

Don't be silly, Comrade Sailor Moon understands dialectics.

[The Two Jerseys]

(Image)

It's funny because Attorney General Kamala Harris wanted to deny California inmates early release so that they could be exploited for cheap labor...

[Cordel One]

(Image)

It's funny because Attorney General Kamala Harris wanted to deny California inmates early release so that they could be exploited for cheap labor...

I am aware.

[Sanghyeok]

(Image)

It's funny because Attorney General Kamala Harris wanted to deny California inmates early release so that they could be exploited for cheap labor...

When will certain people (party name here) learn a broken system doesn't need more diverse oppressors.

[Postauthoritarian America]

Not lies, history.

Really you fail to show how the system was designed only to oppress the lower classes, you could argue that if that was the goal then the social control affected all class levels, it wasn't just a mechanism to control the lower classes it also was meant to reign in some of the excesses and negative behavior of everyone.

The quote is for purposes of illustration. Read the whole piece.

Because you act like disorder is a good thing, it isn't, a disorderly society cannot function effectively, especially not in the modern world.

More police do not lead to less disorder, quite the opposite in fact.

Social control is far more than simply suppressing the negative activities of a single class, there's a reason why if a rich person walks into the street and starts punching people while being a drunk dumbass they're getting arrested as well.

Sure the rich have Lawyers that they can call on to make sure they get off but they're still ended from their acts of disorder and argubly that's a good thing.

Rich -- and white -- people walk, in fact are often never arrested, for conduct not-rich -- and nonwhite -- people are sitting in jail for today. To believe otherwise is equal parts fantasy and delusion. OJ proved that. At least until he decided to commit a property crime.

What makes you think that a return to disorder will lead to an improvement of society?

I'll tell you what it'll lead too, without the police to do the job of providing order the rich will do it themselves while leaving the rest of society to burn. It will not lead to liberation it will simply lead to the situations like Mexico where entire parts of the country are controlled by criminal gangs while the rich sit behind their mini fortress neighborhoods.

So society should pay for police to protect the rich so that the rich won't pay for police to protect themselves. Got it. And of course the rich and powerful in Mexico have nothing to do with criminal gangs. Right.

[The Two Jerseys]

Make sure to quote those statistics out of context so that it creates a misleading, emotionally-charged argument, apparently that's enough to convince Sailor Moon...

Don't be silly, Comrade Sailor Moon understands dialectics.

If that were the case, then Comrade Sailor Moon would know that "there were X days with a police shooting in year Y" is a shitty statistic to cite in a country with a population of 350 million, not to mention the intellectual dishonesty of labeling all of those shootings as police brutality.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

It's funny because Attorney General Kamala Harris wanted to deny California inmates early release so that they could be exploited for cheap labor...

When will certain people (party name here) learn a broken system doesn't need more diverse oppressors.

Capitalist progressivism is literally having a diversity quota for the boots that trample on your face.

[SD_Film Artists]

Interesting, are these rural and/or wealthy areas or is it a town/city like any other and they've somehow created a strong community despite America's habit of politicising race?

Some places are suburbs of cities, I suspect the key is in the strong sense of community, where people actually know and greet each other. As I said, I live in about the most densely populated city in the world, and crime where I live is practically zero. The biggest event of last year was the entire fire brigade and police turning out to.. get a cat out of a tree.

Hence Tokyo is using community to create more walkable living spaces in communities so people are more out and about and getting to know each other. Here in HK it's in part because people really don't move much between districts, they are born, go to school, hang out and settle down generally in the same district near family.

It's not a utopian ideal, we're naturally communal creatures, we're tribal, and that tribal nature can certainly lead to conflict in terms of between tribes but generally harmony if you feel part of and engaged with your tribe. If we can separate the best of tribal behaviour from the worst then we're onto a good road to not really needing police or, as far as I'd go, even laws.. more fluid informal community rules.

I'm not an anarchist or communist, I'm not intent on removing structures or deleting property, I just feel the structures of government and police need to move from monolithic to more fluid.

That change of culture to one of unity is one I an get behind. I only hope that it's scaleble to places which don't tradititionally have that community culture, and also if they can achieve it with low police spending. For example my home of Norfolk is a comparatively low crime area but that's not because of any revolutionary rejection of the police, but rather because it has more rural professions and pensioners than the national average; not people known for crime. It is the culture and demographics which is important; if we simply throw money at welfare projects then I suspect it will only have a marginal effect as the core problems of disunity will still lay beneath.

My note was on how most crimes are minor, due to essential needs, or psychological issues. Here we see the majority of crimes do appear to be minor.

That doesn't mean they are done for essential needs or psychological reasons. Further not all violent or property crimes are ones we should do away with. DUI's are not considered either of those. Non-violent forms of sexual assault or other sex crimes are likewise not included (eg flashing people). Also it'd be really cool if people stopped using mental health as a crutch to excuse criminality, especially when you consider that the mentally ill are more likely to be the victims of crime not the perpetrators. Though it wouldn't be the first time mentally ill people were tossed under the bus by the left. This may come as a shock but even a lot of petty criminals do it for things like the thrill of it or because they are just assholes who don't care.

Indeed. As an autistic person myself it's fustrating when crime is seen as a natural symptom of mental health issues, when in reality the stigma borne from that stereotype and others like it is the true symptom that we are made to live with.

[The Emerald Legion]

1. Increasing welfare. I'm a freaking Libertarian. No
2. Rehabilitation budget. Sure.Put 511 million dollars of Planned parenthood into this and I am for this
3. Um. I'm pretty sure there are organizations doing this, but sure, I'll donate

1. Well then I'm afraid you won't be seeing a decrease in crime then.
2. You're "libertarian".
3. There are organisations doing this, but they lack both labour power and funding.

1.) Sure he could. There are other options besides appeasement.

[Ifreann]

...but most people are, and even more would be if not for inequality.

I don’t know where you grew up but news flash the world isn’t all sunshine and roses

There are people all over the world working as long as they can every single day, risking their lives doing so, to save the lives of total strangers, and where that isn't possible, which is horribly often, to provide them with some small comfort as they die. This cynical "People aren't going to help each other, don't be so naive" take is a tall glass of lukewarm piss. Every evil that humans perpetrate against one another is resisted by other humans, every injustice we inflict, we also fight, every oppressed minority has allies who are not members of that same group. News flash, the world isn't all darkness and thorns.

---

I don’t know where you grew up but news flash the world isn’t all sunshine and roses

Equality won't make all serial killers go away for example.

You ever notice that serial killers actually mostly have gone away?

[Muralos]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification (edit: counting- the results have been certified in the states) of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

[Sanghyeok]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

You've asked an excellent question. I'll try to write an effort response tomorrow on my feelings.

[Muralos]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

You've asked an excellent question. I'll try to write an effort response tomorrow on my feelings.

Appreciate the reply; I would be interested in reading that!

[Bombadil]

I’m very curious what people are thinking in light of Trump supporters entering the U.S. Capitol building and interrupting the certification of Electoral College votes today.

I think the people in favor of police reform/keeping the police would say “this is why a police force is important...” but I wonder about those who are in favor of abolition/drastically changing how the police is organized.

Changes nothing for me given I see it as a product of the existing system I'd want to change. Trump is part caused by the disconnect felt by people to the tribe (or swamp) in Washington in part due to lack of proper community engagement. US politics is currently driven by 'other' rather than 'us'.