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Do we even need police?

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Disgraces
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Postby Disgraces » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:29 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Disgraces wrote:Who the fuck would need an AR-15 to defend themself?

You dont.

Indeed. This is why gun control is necessary.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm

Disgraces wrote:
San Lumen wrote:You dont.

Indeed. This is why gun control is necessary.

Agreed. This isn't a gun control debate though.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:33 pm

The posse system worked back when almost everything was legal.

Society is now too complex for that to work, and it's dubious if it worked back then too. I'd wager a number of murderers got away with it because the posse just blamed someone they didn't like.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:35 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
One thing I've noticed, certainly with reactions to the pandemic, is that government and people go hand in hand. It's like prisons, if every prisoner combined to overthrow a prison they would succeed. Similar with government, a basic observance of social community is required. So in Taiwan, for example, you had sensible government measures and a sensible people, similar for most nations that dealt well with the pandemic. For HK, dumb ass government but cautious people, in a sense the actions of the people precede the nature of the government (at least in a democratic society..).

So it's difficult to create solutions for policing if you don't have a civil minded population. Comparing Japan to, say, the US in terms of police is not particularly easy given they're faced with very different societal issues.

So the question is about how we address societal issues better that reduce anti-social behaviour as opposed to just 'how do we reform the police?'.


Turn off Fox News and stop giving out pills like candy to every spoiled white brat who whines at a doctor?

We'd still need police, but it probably would make things calmer.


I've oft said if a nation simply focused on providing modern, effective and free education and healthcare, if that's where the majority of budget went, it would solve 90% of problems anyway.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:35 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:The posse system worked back when almost everything was legal.

Society is now too complex for that to work, and it's dubious if it worked back then too. I'd wager a number of murderers got away with it because the posse just blamed someone they didn't like.

Posse System? What's that?

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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:35 pm

Crime won't stop existing if we got rid of police, so we still need them. We of course need to reform the police so we can prevent more brutality.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:35 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote: I'd wager a number of murderers got away with it because the posse just blamed someone they didn't like.


For sure.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:39 pm

Aeritai wrote:Crime won't stop existing if we got rid of police, so we still need them. We of course need to reform the police so we can prevent more brutality.

and one way that can be done is improving relations with the community and having more transparency such as beat cops and banning encryption.

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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:46 pm

I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.
Last edited by Cordel One on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:49 pm

Cordel One wrote:I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.

And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:50 pm

Yes, we need police. But I do think there needs to be reforms to eliminate corruption.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:50 pm

Romextly wrote:Of course we need the police. Soon, if the left has it's way, there will be extremely tight gun laws leaving more people defenseless. Take away the police and what you have is a bloodbath

"Under no pretext..."
Last edited by Sanghyeok on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 pm

Cordel One wrote:I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.


Living in HK as I do I'm acutely aware that the police are there to protect the system not the people, when push comes to shove.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

十年

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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.

And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

Slowly abolish the police and most laws, replace it with a fully transparent volunteer force.
Last edited by Cordel One on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:53 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.

And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

I'm not saying remove police immediately- if you've read my OP, you know I favour slowly transferring police budgets to welfare, education, and mental health programmes that 1) reduce incentives to commit crime and 2) allow non-violent criminals to re-integrate into our society. At some point in the future- perhaps before, or maybe after the state has been replaced- then police may be removed entirely.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Recommended sweets of the year!
Chairwoman Ōmiya in New Year's Party with Azur Deutschland friends
Read the untold story of the Ōmiya sisters

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Sanghyeok
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Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:53 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Cordel One wrote:I fully agree with Sanghyeok on the matter, and would like to add that they're effectively owned by the bourgeoisie and exist to serve capital. The institution is fundamentally corrupt and racist no matter where in the world you go. The police should be slowly phased out of existence, along with most of the laws they exist to enforce (with the exception of murderers and sex criminals and stuff). We should then divert the money that would go to cops toward social programs, welfare, and financial equality as inquality is the main caue of crime.


Living in HK as I do I'm acutely aware that the police are there to protect the system not the people, when push comes to shove.

Right, police everywhere serve to protect the state and its interests, not us.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Recommended sweets of the year!
Chairwoman Ōmiya in New Year's Party with Azur Deutschland friends
Read the untold story of the Ōmiya sisters

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:55 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

Abolish the police and most laws, start a fully transparent volunteer force.


why do you what to abolish most laws? Who's going to maintain order? No one is going to do such a job for free.

Sanghyeok wrote:
San Lumen wrote:And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

I'm not saying remove police immediately- if you've read my OP, you know I favour slowly transferring police budgets to welfare, education, and mental health programmes that 1) reduce incentives to commit crime and 2) allow non-violent criminals to re-integrate into our society. At some point in the future- perhaps before, or maybe after the state has been replaced- then police may be removed entirely.


Or how about instead of embracing something so radical we reform the police by having things like deescalation, banning things like chokeholds, having review boards, and banning encryption of radios.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cameroi
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Postby Cameroi » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:55 pm

what we would need to not need them is for everyone to be considerate of everything.
this is actually possibale. inconsiderateness is not a biologicalo imparative.
but it is a choice that is up to all of us. until we do, yes we continue to need them.
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Sanghyeok
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:55 pm

Dangine wrote:
Sanghyeok wrote:Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

I know problems with the police vary from country to country. What are the problems with the police in Japan? Is it better or worse than we have it in the U.S and is there a particular issue that Japan faces with police that we don't?

I would argue Japan's main problem with police is actually a fault of the justice system that focuses on ensuring conviction, causing many innocent people to even confess. There's also the typical corruption and bribery that all nations suffer from. But I didn't have any particular country in mind when making this, merely my opposition to police in general as a system.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Recommended sweets of the year!
Chairwoman Ōmiya in New Year's Party with Azur Deutschland friends
Read the untold story of the Ōmiya sisters

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:56 pm

Cordel One wrote:
San Lumen wrote:And whose going to enforce law and order? How about instead we reform the police and increase transparency such as banning encryption and encouraging community policy so their is a relationship with the community.

Your solution is not the answer.

Abolish the police and most laws, start a fully transparent volunteer force.


So you don't actually want to abolish police. You just want to restructure the police, but you needed to say "abolish" to prove how edgy you are. Got it.
Don't take life so serious... it isn't permanent... RIP Dyakovo and Ashmoria
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:57 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Romextly wrote:Of course we need the police. Soon, if the left has it's way, there will be extremely tight gun laws leaving more people defenseless. Take away the police and what you have is a bloodbath


No one on the left wants to ban all guns nor abolish the police.

That's incorrect.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:57 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Abolish the police and most laws, start a fully transparent volunteer force.


why do you what to abolish most laws? Who's going to maintain order? No one is going to do such a job for free.

That's simply not true. Have you heard of volunteer firefighters?
Against the grain, that's where I'll stay
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Anti: rightism, fascism, capitalism, liberalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, bourgeoisie, the police, military industrial complex, imperialism, USA, PRC, overused talking points
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Dytarma
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Postby Dytarma » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:57 pm

Mmm, pretty sure we do
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Sanghyeok
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:57 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Abolish the police and most laws, start a fully transparent volunteer force.


So you don't actually want to abolish police. You just want to restructure the police, but you needed to say "abolish" to prove how edgy you are. Got it.


I think that is abolishing police though, at least the system we have today.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Ōmiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Recommended sweets of the year!
Chairwoman Ōmiya in New Year's Party with Azur Deutschland friends
Read the untold story of the Ōmiya sisters

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Cordel One
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Posts: 3881
Founded: Aug 06, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cordel One » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:58 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Cordel One wrote:Abolish the police and most laws, start a fully transparent volunteer force.


So you don't actually want to abolish police. You just want to restructure the police, but you needed to say "abolish" to prove how edgy you are. Got it.

"Restructure" implies I want to keep pieces of the system that was.
Against the grain, that's where I'll stay
Pro: leftism, neozapatism. communism, anarchism, Marxism, antifascism, choice, the environment, LGBTQ rights, minority rights, direct democracy, universal healthcare, open borders, labor unions, debating, my comrades

Anti: rightism, fascism, capitalism, liberalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, bourgeoisie, the police, military industrial complex, imperialism, USA, PRC, overused talking points
Open to TGs - Please join my region the DankLeft Commune!

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