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Do we even need police?

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Socialist States of Ludistan
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Postby Socialist States of Ludistan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:39 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Nejii wrote:
A local militia? No.


I thought you conservatives like your well regulated militias?

Bru-u-uh.
At least it’s better than gulags, right?
Oh wait, I’m probably talking with the wrong person about that.
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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:41 am

Disgraces wrote:
Romextly wrote:I said tight gun laws. To restrict access to guns such as the Ar-15 and by Semi autos. And On taking away the police I was responding to the OP. And actually there are people on the left who want to abolish the police. There is aalso people on the right

Who the fuck would need an AR-15 to defend themself?

The AR-15 is quite an acceptable home defense firearm.
As to the OP, yes, a locality needs a police organization.
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:43 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Nejii wrote:
A local militia? No.


I thought you conservatives like your well regulated militias?


Centrist libertarian.

Just because I side with the right on select visible issues doesn't line me up directly with the right wing. I often side with the left on many things, such as education, LGBT rights and equalities, the COVID response, and to a degree gun rights. To name a few.

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Postby United Kingdom of British Isles » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:48 am

Sanghyeok wrote:Police are often seen as something necessary to protect lives, prevent crime, and preserve order. However, in practice this has rarely been the case in countries around the world. Instead, cases abound where police have failed to complete their duties, and instead not only bring harm to their communities through brutalising and terrorising their residents through beatings and sexual assault, continuously place business interests above the common people's, and preserving property instead of lives among others. Instead, some policy makers propose replacing police with solutions we know to be effective, such as rehabilitation of criminals as opposed to punitive punishment, decriminalising non-violent crimes, and spend more on mental health care, housing and education.

What do you think about police abolition entirely (in all nations) ? I support immediate reforms to reduce police power and provide more funding to welfare initiatives that reduce incentives and necessity for crime, with a long term plan of removing police as an institution.

Yes

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Socialist States of Ludistan
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Postby Socialist States of Ludistan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:49 am

Nejii wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
I thought you conservatives like your well regulated militias?


Centrist libertarian.

Just because I side with the right on select visible issues doesn't line me up directly with the right wing. I often side with the left on many things, such as education, LGBT rights and equalities, the COVID response, and to a degree gun rights. To name a few.

Aye!
Me too.
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Nejii
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:52 am

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Centrist libertarian.

Just because I side with the right on select visible issues doesn't line me up directly with the right wing. I often side with the left on many things, such as education, LGBT rights and equalities, the COVID response, and to a degree gun rights. To name a few.

Aye!
Me too.


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Last edited by Nejii on Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Western Theram » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:54 am

"oF cOuRsE We neEd PoLiCe tHeY pReVeNt cRiMe"
except for when cops choose not to do their jobs and innocent people die or when they go on a power trip and just start shooting everybody.

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police officers at all levels of the government have no duty to protect the citizens of this country. It is the job of police officers to investigate crimes and arrest criminals. We are on our own for protection."
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/supreme-c ... protection.
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:58 am

Western Theram wrote:"oF cOuRsE We neEd PoLiCe tHeY pReVeNt cRiMe"
except for when cops choose not to do their jobs and innocent people die or when they go on a power trip and just start shooting everybody.

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police officers at all levels of the government have no duty to protect the citizens of this country. It is the job of police officers to investigate crimes and arrest criminals. We are on our own for protection."
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/supreme-c ... protection.


Seven hundred thousand police officers in the US, "but lets railroad them all over the actions of a negative minority element". :roll:

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Postby Western Theram » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:02 am

Nejii wrote:
Western Theram wrote:"oF cOuRsE We neEd PoLiCe tHeY pReVeNt cRiMe"
except for when cops choose not to do their jobs and innocent people die or when they go on a power trip and just start shooting everybody.

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police officers at all levels of the government have no duty to protect the citizens of this country. It is the job of police officers to investigate crimes and arrest criminals. We are on our own for protection."
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/supreme-c ... protection.


Seven hundred thousand police officers in the US, "but lets railroad them all over the actions of a negative minority element". :roll:

police shootings are definitely NOT in the minority, they happen way too often, you just don't pay attention apparently
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Western Theram
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Postby Western Theram » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:06 am

Nejii wrote:
Western Theram wrote:"oF cOuRsE We neEd PoLiCe tHeY pReVeNt cRiMe"
except for when cops choose not to do their jobs and innocent people die or when they go on a power trip and just start shooting everybody.

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police officers at all levels of the government have no duty to protect the citizens of this country. It is the job of police officers to investigate crimes and arrest criminals. We are on our own for protection."
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/supreme-c ... protection.


Seven hundred thousand police officers in the US, "but lets railroad them all over the actions of a negative minority element". :roll:

also here's an article about the time new york cops went on strike and crime went DOWN
https://www.latimes.com/science/science ... story.html
it's almost as if they're disproportionately policing certain areas more than others...
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Postby Miku the Based » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:06 am

We need secret police. Just don't call them police but allow extrajudicial murder. :^)
For real though police is needed in some form or another in order to enforce any law no matter what it may be. It is also needed to maintain rehabilitation centers or gulags or prisons or whatever you call them, it's a semantics anyway. Also oppose non-punishment/rehab for non-violent crimes. Money Embezzlement, counterfeit printing, money laundering, theft, lobbying and other such corruption cases could arguably be called non-violent. I rather for them to be punishable and enforced. Also punish drug dealing and corruption of pharmaceutical industry. There is a lot of crime going around unpunished in America due to the goals and aspirations of its government.
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:07 am

Western Theram wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Seven hundred thousand police officers in the US, "but lets railroad them all over the actions of a negative minority element". :roll:

police shootings are definitely NOT in the minority, they happen way too often, you just don't pay attention apparently


That's based on the premise that every single person shot by a police officer was innocent. As far as shootings/killings along the likes of George Floyd, Alton Sterling, Manuel Ellis, and others, those are a minority element. The drug dealers, gangbangers, armed assailants, psychos, and etcetera are not "unjust murders".

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Miku the Based
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Postby Miku the Based » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:15 am

Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:Can’t we just have, you know, normal police?
No need for anarcho-capitalism, guys.

What is "normal" ?
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:17 am

Miku the Based wrote:
Socialist States of Ludistan wrote:Can’t we just have, you know, normal police?
No need for anarcho-capitalism, guys.

What is "normal" ?


An effective and absolute police force but still held accountable for any poor or detrimental actions and held to high standards. I don't support police defunding and certainly not abolition, but analyzation and reform is necessary.
Last edited by Nejii on Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Western Theram » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:23 am

Nejii wrote:
Western Theram wrote:police shootings are definitely NOT in the minority, they happen way too often, you just don't pay attention apparently


That's based on the premise that every single person shot by a police officer was innocent. As far as shootings/killings along the likes of George Floyd, Alton Sterling, Manuel Ellis, and others, those are a minority element. The drug dealers, gangbangers, armed assailants, psychos, and etcetera are not "unjust murders".

i mean they're not exactly suppose to kill guilty people either, that's what we have prison for, or at least that's what it should be used for focus on rehabilitation. but you'd be surprised on how little cops actually get the 'bad guys' hell the nashville police didn't even bother looking into the nashville bomber despite being TOLD he was making a bomb.
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Postby Arisyan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:27 am

well yes but actually no.

To elaborate, have police be community based and reform the system so that they aren't so biased/forceful when it comes to arrests. Id personally make the justice system a mix between rehabilitative and punitive, where rehabilitation is used for the first 2 offences, but if they commit a crime again, then they go to prison.
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Postby Nejii » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:29 am

Western Theram wrote:
Nejii wrote:
That's based on the premise that every single person shot by a police officer was innocent. As far as shootings/killings along the likes of George Floyd, Alton Sterling, Manuel Ellis, and others, those are a minority element. The drug dealers, gangbangers, armed assailants, psychos, and etcetera are not "unjust murders".

i mean they're not exactly suppose to kill guilty people either, that's what we have prison for, or at least that's what it should be used for focus on rehabilitation. but you'd be surprised on how little cops actually get the 'bad guys' hell the nashville police didn't even bother looking into the nashville bomber despite being TOLD he was making a bomb.


I'm not saying "criminals should be killed", but when you resist a law enforcement officer, be it by struggling or firing a weapon, your taking your life into your own hands. An officer on duty who is fired at or at threat of being stabbed, clubbed, or even blown up, has the right to defend themselves. It's easy to judge someone else's action when you've never been in a situation like that yourself.

And as for the incompetence of MNPD, yes, they dropped the ball. Someone needs to be held accountable.

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Postby Atheris » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:33 am

Obviously, yes.
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Postby Western Theram » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:33 am

Arisyan wrote:well yes but actually no.

To elaborate, have police be community based and reform the system so that they aren't so biased/forceful when it comes to arrests. Id personally make the justice system a mix between rehabilitative and punitive, where rehabilitation is used for the first 2 offences, but if they commit a crime again, then they go to prison.

i can agree with that, i say cops should have to be elected by the community and should have to live in the community they serve, also funnel money into things like mental health resources
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Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:34 am

Esternial wrote:Seems like a massive overcorrection.

^ This.

Yes, there are places where there are serious issues with police who -- due to policy -- serve and protect the state and not the people (as Bombadil has said, regarding Hong Kong) and where there is serious corruption and police bias. But crime exists. Not all murders are manslaughter, not all robberies are due to deprivation, no rape is a crime of necessity, and when people are attacked they want justice.

I favour rehabilitation (though acknowledge that, with some people, it isn't possible) and improvements to social provision (welfare, education, opportunity and mental health care). Yet it's unconscionable to leave people with no recourse if they experience crime, out of some ideological fervour.

The police are trained to solve crimes, systematically, methodically, using chains of custody for evidence. If you abolish them, how would crimes be solved? Crime won't go away. What would you have -- one million amateur Sherlock Holmes' all galloping over crime scenes, rampaging over DNA and picking up any odd bit of soil because it looks a bit different to all the other bits of soil and therefore might be a clue? One million random strangers repeatedly questioning the same distraught victim in the hope a single one of them might have a bloody clue of what they're doing? How would anyone harmed get justice? Ever?

The police is far from perfect (or adequate, in some places). Yes, the police should definitely be reformed. They should be forbidden from using force (such as stress positions or choke holds). Officers should be given field tests (almost like mystery shopping) in their ability to not let any biases they may hold interfere in their work. They should be more transparent, with their actions scrutinised by an independent body that's in no way connected to the government, and it should be easier to remove officers who commit actions that harm or risk the people they serve.

But getting rid of the police is a ridiculous idea.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Miku the Based » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:36 am

Nejii wrote:police shootings are definitely NOT in the minority, they happen way too often, you just don't pay attention apparently


That's based on the premise that every single person shot by a police officer was innocent. As far as shootings/killings along the likes of George Floyd, Alton Sterling, Manuel Ellis, and others, those are a minority element. The drug dealers, gangbangers, armed assailants, psychos, and etcetera are not "unjust murders".


Police shootings in comparison to police shootings across the world is pretty much the only metric in the majority. Apart from 2008 Mexico or something. It's just someone trying to push the narrative that all police are trigger happy psychos. I reckon that most police have at most a dozen or so cases where they have to discharge a firearm in their career and a minority that has it up in the hundred due to the nature of the jurisdiction and what they are enforcing (swat team, DEA so on (cracking down on meth labs are no joke, they are armed)). That said the police in america has different priorities then serving the public and that's the problem. Other metrics such as number of overall crimes and those cases that the police have discharged a firearm is likely to be in the minority.
The other thing about a city department having less crime when they weren't enforcing the law also seemed misleading. I reckoned the number of reported crime to be on average the same as the other but since the police is not roaming around on patrols the total number of crimes is lower. it could be useless nonsense like parking tickets or more serious ones. It's a big city and the likelihood of crimes being committed increases drastically when you have a high population density above carrying capacity with scarce employment prospects, unstable income, poor food distribution centers, high disease, and so on. Cities are a meme, they should be depopulated.
The good thing about america is that if you call the police you don't have to bribe them in order not to get arrested. I've heard places in Latin america require you to do that.
Last edited by Miku the Based on Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:44 am

Nejii wrote:
Western Theram wrote:police shootings are definitely NOT in the minority, they happen way too often, you just don't pay attention apparently


That's based on the premise that every single person shot by a police officer was innocent. As far as shootings/killings along the likes of George Floyd, Alton Sterling, Manuel Ellis, and others, those are a minority element. The drug dealers, gangbangers, armed assailants, psychos, and etcetera are not "unjust murders".


That and the thread doesn't have to be about America.
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Postby CoraSpia » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:50 am

Nejii wrote:
Western Theram wrote:i mean they're not exactly suppose to kill guilty people either, that's what we have prison for, or at least that's what it should be used for focus on rehabilitation. but you'd be surprised on how little cops actually get the 'bad guys' hell the nashville police didn't even bother looking into the nashville bomber despite being TOLD he was making a bomb.


I'm not saying "criminals should be killed", but when you resist a law enforcement officer, be it by struggling or firing a weapon, your taking your life into your own hands. An officer on duty who is fired at or at threat of being stabbed, clubbed, or even blown up, has the right to defend themselves. It's easy to judge someone else's action when you've never been in a situation like that yourself.

And as for the incompetence of MNPD, yes, they dropped the ball. Someone needs to be held accountable.

There's a difference between someone who's going for his gun (and I mean actually going for his gun, not 'that inhaler totally looked like a gun') and someone who's punching out at you. It shouldn't be easy for a police officer to justify why he killed somebody, because he's killed somebody.
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Postby Miku the Based » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:57 am

CoraSpia wrote:It shouldn't be easy for a police officer to justify why he killed somebody, because he's killed somebody.

Agreed, the fact that he has a weapon does not justify escalating to deadly force. this is a no brainer but cops get off scot free from that even if he put down the weapon. Remember the quote that one cop said during his trial "He did nothing wrong" "I would do the exact thing over again if placed under the same scenario".
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Imperium Latine
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Postby Imperium Latine » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:57 am

Yes you need police, don't wanna sound rude but that talk about criminality comes from someone who really doesn't know anything about criminals and criminality or doesn't want to face reality. Being poor isn't what makes someone a criminal, there are many crimes that are not justified by social conditions and that no mental help or rehabilitation can occur with some people. Police is also a sign of the civilized world a construction to make society more peaceful, they are extremely needed all around and if you really think that it makes the world a worst place please tell me what is the alternative.
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