Do we even need police?

[Des-Bal]

Circular definitions are non-idiotic now? News to me.

Fishermen are those who fish, pilots are those who pilot, and police are those who police. That is a straight line. I am shocked you don't know what a circle is.

[Treciene]

I mean we need it for safety. There could be a pledge not to be racist toward others

[Dorylaeumnia]

Some form of police is needed for a country to function. Without any police whatsoever, it is likely that the country would be a place known for its pervasive lawlessness. Of course, the police system in the United States does need to be reformed, but that does not appear to be the subject of this thread.

[Labbos]

The bailiffs are still police because they're enforcing the law through the use of force.

According to what definition?

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=police+definition

"the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order"

What if while they're arresting the mugger they come across somebody building a bomb to carry out an imminent terrorist attack, do they wish that person a nice day and fill out form 73C when they get back to the office to let the prosecutorial service know?

What is there's something similar to what happened at Capital Hill. Who takes action there, and who decides what action they should take?

I encourage you to read the rest of the thread and piece together yourself based on what I've said what you think the answer is.

Is this where there's a special force of not-police, who turn up with their weapons to do police-like things, but call for someone else to do the arresting afterwards? That special force are police.

[SD_Film Artists]

According to what definition?

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=police+definition

"the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order"

I encourage you to read the rest of the thread and piece together yourself based on what I've said what you think the answer is.

Is this where there's a special force of not-police, who turn up with their weapons to do police-like things, but call for someone else to do the arresting afterwards? That special force are police.

They have 'community' on their armband and they're black so it'll all be ok.

[Kubra]

We could talk historical forms of police abolition. The USSR's secret police aside, they decided not to call their regular police "police" for obvious reasons, which ironically worked out to something more structurally militarised than what we expect of civilian police (well, apart from the American kind am I right), a not-police that may have been in some way worse than regular ol' police. Isn't that a much more fun and much more *substantial* topic, and one that arguably supports your own views?

Having different people work as police isn't abolishing the police, even if they're called something else.

And why do you think that a militarised police being worse than regular police supports my views? Sure, that's going to be better than no police, but I live in the UK and am very happy that the police I see don't regularly carry guns and that judges are the ones who sign arrest warrants. But also that the police can also arrest you on the spot rather than waiting for somebody else to make the decision if they catch you doing something. And then the decision to prosecute or decide how long a suspect is held is once more in the hands of judges.

Sometimes this thread reads as though it's from a US perspective, with the assumption that the US system is the best, and so any problems should be solved with radical solutions rather than looking for best practices from around the planet.

because this "militarised police" that was not called police was based out of an aspiration to abolish police, *as I said*. Police abolition became policing but worse. You're *really* committed to this non-topic, are you?

[Des-Bal]

I mean we need it for safety. There could be a pledge not to be racist toward others

The assumption that racism is the major problem is why the major problems with policing are difficult to address.

[Labbos]

because this "militarised police" that was not called police was based out of an aspiration to abolish police, *as I said*. Police abolition became policing but worse. You're *really* committed to this non-topic, are you?

I wouldn't point to one example of abolishing the police having failed and say that means it must always fail. That doesn't logically follow; lot's of things failed once but succeeded later. Better to look at the current proposals and point out issues with them.

[Galloism]

I mean we need it for safety. There could be a pledge not to be racist toward others

The assumption that racism is the major problem is why the major problems with policing are difficult to address.

Yeah. Sexism is a way bigger factor than racism.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah. Sexism is a way bigger factor than racism.

I don't think the biggest issues are bias. My biggest concern is that there are issues with police procedure and police culture that result in unnecessary incidents occurring and being mishandled or even covered up. Many inexcusable lapses occur in high pressure situations, like trying to safely restrain an uncooperative man and keep him out of traffic, being shot at by an unseen assailant, or seeing a man with a weapon make a sudden move to disarm himself.

I think we should approach the issue by looking at what circumstances inspire panic and focus more training on how to handle them. Isolating a group and deciding hatred of that group is the problem doesn't seem like a viable strategy.

[Sanghyeok]

The assumption that racism is the major problem is why the major problems with policing are difficult to address.

Yeah. Sexism is a way bigger factor than racism.

I would argue the greatest factor is class, since all police systems around the world are classist. However racism remains a major issue in many nations. I am not sure about sexism between police and civilians, but I do know there is significant sexism within police themselves.

[Sanghyeok]

Yeah. Sexism is a way bigger factor than racism.

I don't think the biggest issues are bias. My biggest concern is that there are issues with police procedure and police culture that result in unnecessary incidents occurring and being mishandled or even covered up. Many inexcusable lapses occur in high pressure situations, like trying to safely restrain an uncooperative man and keep him out of traffic, being shot at by an unseen assailant, or seeing a man with a weapon make a sudden move to disarm himself.

I think we should approach the issue by looking at what circumstances inspire panic and focus more training on how to handle them. Isolating a group and deciding hatred of that group is the problem doesn't seem like a viable strategy.

If we operated from hatred, our solution would not be abolishment of the system. We recognise that good police are often forced into bad behaviours by their system.

[SD_Film Artists]

I don't think the biggest issues are bias. My biggest concern is that there are issues with police procedure and police culture that result in unnecessary incidents occurring and being mishandled or even covered up. Many inexcusable lapses occur in high pressure situations, like trying to safely restrain an uncooperative man and keep him out of traffic, being shot at by an unseen assailant, or seeing a man with a weapon make a sudden move to disarm himself.

I think we should approach the issue by looking at what circumstances inspire panic and focus more training on how to handle them. Isolating a group and deciding hatred of that group is the problem doesn't seem like a viable strategy.

We recognise that good police are often forced into bad behaviours by their system.

The royal 'we'?

[Des-Bal]

I would argue the greatest factor is class, since all police systems around the world are classist. However racism remains a major issue in many nations. I am not sure about sexism between police and civilians, but I do know there is significant sexism within police themselves.

This really shows your bias, police must be classist and they're probably racist but we can't be sure about sexism even though over 90% of people killed by the police are male. You're not motivated by facts or evidence because your every opinion on this issue is just some facet of a broader mishmosh of communist bullshit.

[Deltia-]

Yes. Why is this even a thread?

Anyways, a police force is necessary to prevent crimes and enforce law and order. About what the OP said about police raping and stealing, it's mainly due to the the fact that police officers in developing countries are simply poorly paid, and ironically become criminals themselves to make ends meet. I personally would say that a police force with remotely-controlled drones watching them from above (at least whenever they are responding to a crime), would be desirable, if it wasn't for the fact they were prone to hacking, but after all, firewalls exist.

[Sanghyeok]

I would argue the greatest factor is class, since all police systems around the world are classist. However racism remains a major issue in many nations. I am not sure about sexism between police and civilians, but I do know there is significant sexism within police themselves.

This really shows your bias, police must be classist and they're probably racist but we can't be sure about sexism even though over 90% of people killed by the police are male. You're not motivated by facts or evidence because your every opinion on this issue is just some facet of a broader mishmosh of communist bullshit.

Most of my research and reading on the subject has to do with class or (in some contexts) race. I said I'm unsure about sexism in interactions between police and civilians not because my opinions are a "mishmosh of communist bullshit", but rather because I'm not informed enough on that issue to make a conclusion. You're more than welcome to send me reading on why you believe that is an issue, and I'll read it.

[Des-Bal]

Most of my research and reading on the subject has to do with class or (in some contexts) race. I said I'm unsure about sexism in interactions between police and civilians not because my opinions are a "mishmosh of communist bullshit", but rather because I'm not informed enough on that issue to make a conclusion. You're more than welcome to send me reading on why you believe that is an issue, and I'll read it.

I don't believe it's a major issue I think that when you start looking at numbers it's striking how well they all fit together and where people choose to focus their attention comes down to what they would like to be outraged by and it's a game that people play at every point on the political compass. If you want to be outraged by the resources wasted dealing with the innately criminal minority of your choice you can, if you want to seethe about how the cops don't get held accountable you can.

[Sanghyeok]

Most of my research and reading on the subject has to do with class or (in some contexts) race. I said I'm unsure about sexism in interactions between police and civilians not because my opinions are a "mishmosh of communist bullshit", but rather because I'm not informed enough on that issue to make a conclusion. You're more than welcome to send me reading on why you believe that is an issue, and I'll read it.

I don't believe it's a major issue I think that when you start looking at numbers it's striking how well they all fit together and where people choose to focus their attention comes down to what they would like to be outraged by and it's a game that people play at every point on the political compass. If you want to be outraged by the resources wasted dealing with the innately criminal minority of your choice you can, if you want to seethe about how the cops don't get held accountable you can.

So you believe police are not discriminatory in any way?

[Des-Bal]

So you believe police are not discriminatory in any way?

If people were arguing police give leeway to recidivists, issue tickets, or initiate Terry stops in a discriminatory way I'd agree that's likely the case. The issue is when we get into talking about the police being a racist cabal beating and murdering targets of opportunity. I don't think that incidents like the kind which have ignited nationwide protests are generally caused or even especially influenced by racism.

[Page]

So you believe police are not discriminatory in any way?

If people were arguing police give leeway to recidivists, issue tickets, or initiate Terry stops in a discriminatory way I'd agree that's likely the case. The issue is when we get into talking about the police being a racist cabal beating and murdering targets of opportunity. I don't think that incidents like the kind which have ignited nationwide protests are generally caused or even especially influenced by racism.

The police uphold white supremacy, this is true whether the individual cops are or are not white supremacists themselves. When the federal government implemented extreme sentencing for crack cocaine and made the felony quantity so small that people were treated like drug dealers for possessing a personal supply that would last them less than a day, this was a deliberate act of oppression against the black community intended to fill up the prisons, a policy of white supremacy. That is just one example.

[Des-Bal]

The police uphold white supremacy, this is true whether the individual cops are or are not white supremacists themselves. When the federal government implemented extreme sentencing for crack cocaine and made the felony quantity so small that people were treated like drug dealers for possessing a personal supply that would last them less than a day, this was a deliberate act of oppression against the black community intended to fill up the prisons, a policy of white supremacy. That is just one example.

The police uphold the law, if you want to bitch about the law do it to lawmakers.

[Sanghyeok]

The police uphold white supremacy, this is true whether the individual cops are or are not white supremacists themselves. When the federal government implemented extreme sentencing for crack cocaine and made the felony quantity so small that people were treated like drug dealers for possessing a personal supply that would last them less than a day, this was a deliberate act of oppression against the black community intended to fill up the prisons, a policy of white supremacy. That is just one example.

The police uphold the law, if you want to bitch about the law do it to lawmakers.

You would make a good point, except in theory we are all treated the same under the law.

[Des-Bal]

You would make a good point, except in theory we are all treated the same under the law.

The literal example given was the legislature allegedly creating a law to discriminate.

If the issue is the police upholding white supremacy be enforcing white supremacist laws what people are complaining about is the police not seizing quasilegislative authority

[Kowani]

So you believe police are not discriminatory in any way?

If people were arguing police give leeway to recidivists, issue tickets, or initiate Terry stops in a discriminatory way I'd agree that's likely the case. The issue is when we get into talking about the police being a racist cabal beating and murdering targets of opportunity. I don't think that incidents like the kind which have ignited nationwide protests are generally caused or even especially influenced by racism.

you don't think the disparity of force used might have any influence from the way minorities are seen by mainstream society and police in particular

[Page]

The police uphold white supremacy, this is true whether the individual cops are or are not white supremacists themselves. When the federal government implemented extreme sentencing for crack cocaine and made the felony quantity so small that people were treated like drug dealers for possessing a personal supply that would last them less than a day, this was a deliberate act of oppression against the black community intended to fill up the prisons, a policy of white supremacy. That is just one example.

The police uphold the law, if you want to bitch about the law do it to lawmakers.

Correct! Police uphold the law, the law upholds white supremacy, therefore the police uphold white supremacy.

The law and therefore police also uphold the stranglehold the ruling class has on the people but one thing at a time.