Do we even need police?

[Nilokeras]

So who initiates the arrests?

Civilian officials, as said.

So that’s the only thing that makes them not be police officers, not being about to initiate criminal charges?

Police officers have the ability to initiate arrests, initiate criminal charges and authorize the use of force. Hypothetical public security officers can do none of those things on their own authorities.

[Adamede]

So who initiates the arrests?

Civilian officials, as said.

So that’s the only thing that makes them not be police officers, not being about to initiate criminal charges?

Police officers have the ability to initiate arrests, initiate criminal charges and authorize the use of force. Hypothetical public security officers can do none of those things on their own authorities.

But those hypothetical social workers do. What makes them not police officers?

[The Two Jerseys]

The bailiffs. Do read the thread.

So bailiffs are doing the job of the police. Cool.

You still haven't gotten rid of the police.

Just making their job impossible to do, because now they have to call in CSI to identify the purse snatcher they had to let get away because they're not allowed to chase them down and arrest them...

[Nilokeras]

Self-defense is where a lot of issues arise, so is handling a resisting suspect something you've in no way dealt with.

Sure it has. It means that the decision to use force falls on a civilian official who is trained in things like conflict resolution and the law, and who responsibility ultimately falls upon for the consequences of that force.

That aside, you're telling me that if you're pulled over by a highway cop in this ideal world they'll have no power to do anything if they smell marijuana? What if they smell a dead body, or hear banging coming from your trunk? What if it seems like the person in the car might not be there voluntarily? They like write the ticket and say "not my elephant, not my circus?"

They can certainly report the crime to someone like the public security officers, who might ride along with a civilian official like a transport inspector just as they would a social worker.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

So who initiates the arrests?

Civilian officials, as said.

So that’s the only thing that makes them not be police officers, not being about to initiate criminal charges?

Police officers have the ability to initiate arrests, initiate criminal charges and authorize the use of force. Hypothetical public security officers can do none of those things on their own authorities.

Civilian officials? So police officers.

So what do public security officers do?

[Nilokeras]

Civilian officials, as said.



Police officers have the ability to initiate arrests, initiate criminal charges and authorize the use of force. Hypothetical public security officers can do none of those things on their own authorities.

But those hypothetical social workers do. What makes them not police officers?

Because they do not use force, carry out the arrest or write up the criminal charges.

[Adamede]

But those hypothetical social workers do. What makes them not police officers?

Because they do not use force, carry out the arrest or write up the criminal charges.

So what’s going to happen then so that you’re going to have these social workers riding around on patrol with your public security officers then.

[Comfed]

Honestly, the problem is harsh criminal law more than police brutality. Not that it’s non-existent, but less harsh laws, especially drug laws, would go a long way.

[The Two Jerseys]

Civilian officials, as said.



Police officers have the ability to initiate arrests, initiate criminal charges and authorize the use of force. Hypothetical public security officers can do none of those things on their own authorities.

Civilian officials? So police officers.

So what do public security officers do?

Bleed the taxpayers dry.

[Des-Bal]

Sure it has. It means that the decision to use force falls on a civilian official who is trained in things like conflict resolution and the law, and who responsibility ultimately falls upon for the consequences of that force.

They can certainly report the crime to someone like the public security officers, who might ride along with a civilian official like a transport inspector just as they would a social worker.

If you charge someone with enforcing the law, they are no longer a civilian. Police are trained in those things, you can say something dismissive indicating they should be better trained but what you're suggesting doesn't look at all different from just having police.

So every car now contains a public security officer and a traffic officer. You should have one work the steering wheel and one do the pedals, maybe we can get the children in after all. You've massively increased the size and decreased the efficiency of the police. Fortunately it will be worth it because these people working towards the same goals, being paid by the same system, and being subjected to the same bullshit won't all be predisposed to support each other and rubber stamp shit.

[Nilokeras]

Because they do not use force, carry out the arrest or write up the criminal charges.

So what’s going to happen then so that you’re going to have these social workers riding around on patrol with your public security officers then.

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

[Des-Bal]

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

So the public security officers are like cops except if you see one in a moment of crisis they won't help you because they lack permission. They're more like insecurity officers, the assurance that an arm of the state exists to impotently watch you die.

[Nilokeras]

If you charge someone with enforcing the law, they are no longer a civilian. Police are trained in those things, you can say something dismissive indicating they should be better trained but what you're suggesting doesn't look at all different from just having police.

By international law and custom, civilians are those who do not carry arms, not those who are part of law enforcement mechanisms. Police bureaucrats and court officials, for example, are still civilians.

[Des-Bal]

By international law and custom, civilians are those who do not carry arms, not those who are part of law enforcement mechanisms. Police bureaucrats and court officials, for example, are still civilians.

ci·vil·ian
/səˈvilyən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a person not in the armed services or the police force.\
adjective
of, denoting, or relating to a person not belonging to the armed services or police.

Civilian
In general use, a civilian is "a person who is not a member of the police, the armed forces, or a fire department."

[The Two Jerseys]

So what’s going to happen then so that you’re going to have these social workers riding around on patrol with your public security officers then.

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

Sounds more like the key is to waste money paying a bunch of people to do less work than one police officer does...

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

If you charge someone with enforcing the law, they are no longer a civilian. Police are trained in those things, you can say something dismissive indicating they should be better trained but what you're suggesting doesn't look at all different from just having police.

By international law and custom, civilians are those who do not carry arms, not those who are part of law enforcement mechanisms. Police bureaucrats and court officials, for example, are still civilians.

But gun permits.

[The Two Jerseys]

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

So the public security officers are like cops except if you see one in a moment of crisis they won't help you because they lack permission. They're more like insecurity officers, the assurance that an arm of the state exists to impotently watch you die.

Des, please, those windmills!

[Nilokeras]

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

So the public security officers are like cops except if you see one in a moment of crisis they won't help you because they lack permission. They're more like insecurity officers, the assurance that an arm of the state exists to impotently watch you die.

If you're being assaulted or something they can absolutely assist you. Acting in self-defense or the defense of others is a legitimate use of force.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

So the public security officers are like cops except if you see one in a moment of crisis they won't help you because they lack permission. They're more like insecurity officers, the assurance that an arm of the state exists to impotently watch you die.

If you're being assaulted or something they can absolutely assist you. Acting in self-defense or the defense of others is a legitimate use of force.

But will they apprehend the perpetrator?

[Atheris]

If you're being assaulted or something they can absolutely assist you. Acting in self-defense or the defense of others is a legitimate use of force.

But will they apprehend the perpetrator?

No, they need a warrant first.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

But will they apprehend the perpetrator?

No, they need a warrant first.

Isn't their committing a violent crime in front of an officer enough?

[Des-Bal]

If you're being assaulted or something they can absolutely assist you. Acting in self-defense or the defense of others is a legitimate use of force.

Okay so they are still making their own decisions about when to use force and how much to use but after they beat the shit out you they just like let you leave? Or do they detain you until such time as they can secure a warrant for your arrest?

[Adamede]

If you charge someone with enforcing the law, they are no longer a civilian. Police are trained in those things, you can say something dismissive indicating they should be better trained but what you're suggesting doesn't look at all different from just having police.

By international law and custom, civilians are those who do not carry arms, not those who are part of law enforcement mechanisms. Police bureaucrats and court officials, for example, are still civilians.

Plenty of civilians who own arms across the world.

So what’s going to happen then so that you’re going to have these social workers riding around on patrol with your public security officers then.

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

A pointless distinction and a situation which is effectively the same as that current police forces occupy.

[Western Fardelshufflestein]

By international law and custom, civilians are those who do not carry arms, not those who are part of law enforcement mechanisms. Police bureaucrats and court officials, for example, are still civilians.

Plenty of civilians who own arms across the world.

No, the public security officer would accompany the social worker in their duties. Again: the key is the subordination of those who are trained to apply violence to civilians.

A pointless distinction and a situation which is effectively the same as that current police forces occupy.

But with more red tape.

[The Two Jerseys]

But will they apprehend the perpetrator?

No, they need a warrant first.

Hope the Totally Not Police officer can identify the suspect's ass, because that's all he's going to see when the suspect moons him as he flees...