Existence of God/gods thread thread

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

How do we know that Donald Trump exists?

1. We see him and hear him speak on news.
2. We can read his tweets.
3. We can even see him by attending his rallies.

Popular reactions to Donald Trump also provided some clue. We know Donald Trump exists for there are many who like him, many who hate him but very few who don’t think he is even real.

We usually apply the Donald Trump Standards of Existence to entities. Denver, CO exists because we have video evidence claiming that it exists, can read documents written by the City of Denver and can actually enter the city. My cat exists because I can see and pet her and can send you cat pics & videos. Your neighbor Jenny exists because she lives in 1035 Oak St, some city, some state and you repeatedly see her walking her dogs. NationStates exists because we can come here and the existence of the site is well accepted elsewhere. Mods exist because when they say they have banned Nation X Nation X does actually get banned.

[The Three Palins]

To suggest we should not contemplate this problem because it cannot be resolved is like saying we shouldn't play basketball because the ball never stays in the net.

I disagree. Playing basketball is fun and the goal was never making sure that the ball stays in the net forever. Discussing the religious question on the other hand, has the goal of decisively resolving it. If you think the discussion itself is actually more important than the actual empirical answer then you have a very confusing position since considering this question a fun intellectual experience only works if the ball is in the net of theism, that is, if theism is false.

Whether theism is factually accurate or not does not depend on human behavior. The answer is more decisive and clear cut than the answer to the question of whether Donald Trump exists.

Or it's not. As I said first up, god probably doesn't exist. Just from lack of proof, it is not correct to conclude that god does not or cannot exist. The "explanation" that god deliberately conceals any proof of their existence, can't be refuted but also is quite unsatisfactory, leading into the whole "god does stuff deliberately to confuse us" non-explanation.

Anyone who thinks they can prove the existence of god, is surely relying on subjective reasoning (eg faith) at some stage of their 'proof'. And anyone who thinks they can prove the non-existence of a god, puts too much weight on a lack of evidence.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Religion is available to everyone through personal experience, it's not limited to philosophers.

Then please prove it to Richard Dawkins.

Dawkins is an absolute fool when it comes to anything outside of his discipline lol. It's a perfect example of someone really smart being really dumb in other ways.

This topic is kinda pointless though. Personal experience can bring people into religion and make them fully believe it's true but that can't readily be shared with others in ways that elicits the same effect.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I disagree. Playing basketball is fun and the goal was never making sure that the ball stays in the net forever. Discussing the religious question on the other hand, has the goal of decisively resolving it. If you think the discussion itself is actually more important than the actual empirical answer then you have a very confusing position since considering this question a fun intellectual experience only works if the ball is in the net of theism, that is, if theism is false.

Whether theism is factually accurate or not does not depend on human behavior. The answer is more decisive and clear cut than the answer to the question of whether Donald Trump exists.

Or it's not. As I said first up, god probably doesn't exist. Just from lack of proof, it is not correct to conclude that god does not or cannot exist. The "explanation" that god deliberately conceals any proof of their existence, can't be refuted but also is quite unsatisfactory, leading into the whole "god does stuff deliberately to confuse us" non-explanation.

Anyone who thinks they can prove the existence of god, is surely relying on subjective reasoning (eg faith) at some stage of their 'proof'. And anyone who thinks they can prove the non-existence of a god, puts too much weight on a lack of evidence.

Actually within Torah itself the Donald Trump Standards of Existence are satisfied.

How do people in Torah know that HaShem exists?

1. By violating laws of physics and causing observable supernatural phenomenon (such as the pillar of fire and the death of Korah et al)
2. By providing evidence that He exists (e.g. manna which everyone ate)

The problem here is...has it actually happened?

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Then please prove it to Richard Dawkins.

Dawkins is an absolute fool when it comes to anything outside of his discipline lol. It's a perfect example of someone really smart being really dumb in other ways.

This topic is kinda pointless though. Personal experience can bring people into religion and make them fully believe it's true but that can't readily be shared with others in ways that elicits the same effect.

It does not resolve the religious question. People can experience a lot. That does not mean their explanation is necessarily true. After all it is impossible for Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism to ALL be factually accurate but it is possible for people to support any of them using religious experience.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Dawkins is an absolute fool when it comes to anything outside of his discipline lol. It's a perfect example of someone really smart being really dumb in other ways.

This topic is kinda pointless though. Personal experience can bring people into religion and make them fully believe it's true but that can't readily be shared with others in ways that elicits the same effect.

It does not resolve the religious question. People can experience a lot. That does not mean their explanation is necessarily true. After all it is impossible for Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism to ALL be factually accurate but it is possible for people to support any of them using religious experience.

I mean, it's wholly possible to believe them all to be true at least in a certain way from a hard polytheistic standpoint. Remember, both Allah and Yahweh were once simply parts of larger traditions with many Gods. From that starting point you can easily accept the existence of those Gods whilst rejecting the later doctrine.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Or it's not. As I said first up, god probably doesn't exist. Just from lack of proof, it is not correct to conclude that god does not or cannot exist. The "explanation" that god deliberately conceals any proof of their existence, can't be refuted but also is quite unsatisfactory, leading into the whole "god does stuff deliberately to confuse us" non-explanation.

Anyone who thinks they can prove the existence of god, is surely relying on subjective reasoning (eg faith) at some stage of their 'proof'. And anyone who thinks they can prove the non-existence of a god, puts too much weight on a lack of evidence.

Actually within Torah itself the Donald Trump Standards of Existence are satisfied.

How do people in Torah know that HaShem exists?

1. By violating laws of physics and causing observable supernatural phenomenon (such as the pillar of fire and the death of Korah et al)
2. By providing evidence that He exists (e.g. manna which everyone ate)

The problem here is...has it actually happened?

This is definitely an important question to ask. I'd take it a step further: How do we know the things in the Torah, Bible, Quran, etc, all really happened in the exact way they claim to?

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

It does not resolve the religious question. People can experience a lot. That does not mean their explanation is necessarily true. After all it is impossible for Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism to ALL be factually accurate but it is possible for people to support any of them using religious experience.

I mean, it's wholly possible to believe them all to be true at least in a certain way from a hard polytheistic standpoint. Remember, both Allah and Yahweh were once simply parts of larger traditions with many Gods. From that starting point you can easily accept the existence of those Gods whilst rejecting the later doctrine.

That’s definitely a legitimate point. That does require hard rejection of all Abrahamic religions though because they are indeed incompatible with it.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Actually within Torah itself the Donald Trump Standards of Existence are satisfied.

How do people in Torah know that HaShem exists?

1. By violating laws of physics and causing observable supernatural phenomenon (such as the pillar of fire and the death of Korah et al)
2. By providing evidence that He exists (e.g. manna which everyone ate)

The problem here is...has it actually happened?

This is definitely an important question to ask. I'd take it a step further: How do we know the things in the Torah, Bible, Quran, etc, all really happened in the exact way they claim to?

Nope.

What’s interesting is that faith does not exist in Torah. The existence of HaShem was even more certain than the existence of Donald Trump today. Hence only misotheists and rebels existed but not atheists (just like there aren’t many a-Trumpists today). HaShem also gladly repeatedly provided evidence for His own existence and never demanded anyone to have faith aka belief without evidence despite punishing so many people with death.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

This is definitely an important question to ask. I'd take it a step further: How do we know the things in the Torah, Bible, Quran, etc, all really happened in the exact way they claim to?

Nope.

What’s interesting is that faith does not exist in Torah. The existence of HaShem was even more certain than the existence of Donald Trump today. Hence only misotheists and rebels existed but not atheists (just like there aren’t many a-Trumpists today). HaShem also gladly repeatedly provided evidence for His own existence and never demanded anyone to have faith despite punishing so many people with death.

...and yet this god can't seem to provide evidence of their existence now?

Truly puzzling, this god is.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Nope.

What’s interesting is that faith does not exist in Torah. The existence of HaShem was even more certain than the existence of Donald Trump today. Hence only misotheists and rebels existed but not atheists (just like there aren’t many a-Trumpists today). HaShem also gladly repeatedly provided evidence for His own existence and never demanded anyone to have faith despite punishing so many people with death.

...and yet this god can't seem to provide evidence of their existence now?

Yup. This is why I’m agnostic. Emunah is definitely a thing in Judaism and there are so many people debating doctrines which is evidence of extreme religious confusion and lack of actual divine guidance.

You know, this doesn’t happen with Donald Trump or AOC. There are people who love them. There are people who hate them. Yet almost all agree that they exist. We also ask Trump to clarify his statements as opposed to forming multiple groups debating details of Trumpism such as whether this Jan 6th 2019 Trump tweet is authentic and whether this precise wording has hidden meaning.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

...and yet this god can't seem to provide evidence of their existence now?

Yup. This is why I’m agnostic. Emunah is definitely a thing in Judaism and there are so many people debating doctrines which is evidence of extreme religious confusion and lack of actual divine guidance.

You know, this doesn’t happen with Donald Trump or AOC. There are people who love them. There are people who hate them. Yet almost all agree that they exist.

Yeah. I mean, if any sort of divine deity existed, then surely we could prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they exist.

Inb4 the theists come with a battering ram saying "ah yes, the classic 'i can't see him therefore he doesn't exist' argument"

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Yup. This is why I’m agnostic. Emunah is definitely a thing in Judaism and there are so many people debating doctrines which is evidence of extreme religious confusion and lack of actual divine guidance.

You know, this doesn’t happen with Donald Trump or AOC. There are people who love them. There are people who hate them. Yet almost all agree that they exist.

Yeah. I mean, if any sort of divine deity existed, then surely we could prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they exist.

Inb4 the theists come with a battering ram saying "ah yes, the classic 'i can't see him therefore he doesn't exist' argument"

That argument you mentioned and the reaction are both caused by the religious confusion, that is, absence of evidence of the existence of their deity/deities. It was never an argument in Torah.

When faith is mentioned then in fact we already agree on absence of universally verifiable evidence.

[Exalted Inquellian State]

I believe we exist in a multiverse. It consists of 100 trillion universes, from 0 dimensional dots to 8 dimensional OOGHLAYOOGHLAYOO- and Heaven itself is 9 dimensional. The most popular god rules, which right now is the Christian god. There's also now infighting because of Satan. However, all other gods exist as well. Anyway, our multiverse is an electron in a larger universe, and there are many levels of this, up to the Inner Omniverse, and then the Outer Omniverse that is the oldest thing besides probability and maybe time.

And no, I don't believe in it to evade the fear of death. I still believe in it, even after I realized we'll all be reborn anyway even if there's no heaven or hell.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

That implies people who believe in god are afraid or worried, and don't have others reasons to believe.

From what have seen and experienced from Abrahamic faiths, there is always a stick to go with the carrot, and that stick is the wrath of God, and the threat of going to (any one of a variety of interpretations of) hell after death. I mean, no thread would be complete without Pascal's Wager being carted out, and it will almost certainly appear in this one, somewhere. And Pascal's Wager hinges on the threat of hell.

The slogan may not be as relevant for many non-Abrahamic religions though.

The stick is what really matters. Non-Abrahamic faiths also often have hell-like entities, including Buddhism.

[Kubra]

God is real, and yer lookin' at 'im.

[Valrifell]

God is real, and yer lookin' at 'im.

Oh, is he behind you?

[Kowani]

God is real, and yer lookin' at 'im.

This phone is rather reflective…

[The Marlborough]

Dawkins is an absolute fool when it comes to anything outside of his discipline lol. It's a perfect example of someone really smart being really dumb in other ways.

This topic is kinda pointless though. Personal experience can bring people into religion and make them fully believe it's true but that can't readily be shared with others in ways that elicits the same effect.

It does not resolve the religious question. People can experience a lot. That does not mean their explanation is necessarily true. After all it is impossible for Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism to ALL be factually accurate but it is possible for people to support any of them using religious experience.

Perennial philosophy exists for starters. And the idea that God has reached out to other groups throughout time and/or that God's presence, and the universal natural truths that come from said presence, is so universal that even non-XYZ could still feel it and live a life that's closer to the true(st) path and be rewarded for it, isn't a relatively new idea.

[Atheris]

I know for a fact God exists, but I'd probably sound like a crazy person if I gave justification as to why.

[The Marlborough]

Yup. This is why I’m agnostic. Emunah is definitely a thing in Judaism and there are so many people debating doctrines which is evidence of extreme religious confusion and lack of actual divine guidance.

You know, this doesn’t happen with Donald Trump or AOC. There are people who love them. There are people who hate them. Yet almost all agree that they exist.

Yeah. I mean, if any sort of divine deity existed, then surely we could prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they exist.

Inb4 the theists come with a battering ram saying "ah yes, the classic 'i can't see him therefore he doesn't exist' argument"

I mean what would you consider an acceptable standard of proof? Also take note that many religions are quite open with saying that they cannot prove the existence of God materially. You wont find a lot of theologians, good ones at least, who claim that you can just create a physics experiment and presto you've proven God's existence.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Yeah. I mean, if any sort of divine deity existed, then surely we could prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they exist.

Inb4 the theists come with a battering ram saying "ah yes, the classic 'i can't see him therefore he doesn't exist' argument"

I mean what would you consider an acceptable standard of proof? Also take note that many religions are quite open with saying that they cannot prove the existence of God materially. You wont find a lot of theologians, good ones at least, who claim that you can just create a physics experiment and presto you've proven God's existence.

I think I have already established criteria here. If Torah-like events happen then the religious question will be resolved.

[Neutraligon]

I know for a fact God exists, but I'd probably sound like a crazy person if I gave justification as to why.

That's the problem with personal revelation, to anyone else it is just a wild and unrealistic fishstory.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I know for a fact God exists, but I'd probably sound like a crazy person if I gave justification as to why.

That's the problem with personal revelation, to anyone else it is just a wild and unrealistic fishstory.

Moreover it contradicts others’ personal revelations so they can’t all be factually accurate. Again that’s a problem that completely did not exist in the Torah.

When the existence of a deity is as obvious as the existence of Donald Trump things will be sorted out.

[The Marlborough]

I mean what would you consider an acceptable standard of proof? Also take note that many religions are quite open with saying that they cannot prove the existence of God materially. You wont find a lot of theologians, good ones at least, who claim that you can just create a physics experiment and presto you've proven God's existence.

I think I have already established criteria here. If Torah-like events happen then the religious question will be resolved.

Such as what, exactly? Moses and the parting of the sea?