Corporal punishment of children 「Yes or No?」

[The Gold Mines]

Yeah, no.
Abuse is not the right way to discipline/ punish children.

[Thermodolia]

The whole story is he was 4, i was holding his hand, he tried to break free, i said “no”. He tried again, i yelled “NO”. He tried a third time. I hit him hard enough to lift him off his feet. He stopped trying. Second time i hit him, he was 16, he raised his hand to his mother and stepped towards her, i grabbed him by the throat, threw him into a wall got right in his face and said “if you raise your hand to your mother again i will not put you against this wall but put you through it”. Only two times i hit him. Honestly he never gave me any other cause to want too.

This is why "yes/no" threads don't work, because there is a world of difference between this and someone that's whipping their kid's ass with a belt every time he gets a little spunky.

Exactly. What Ethel did isn’t child abuse, and unfortunately I know personally that it’s not. You see child abuse isn’t the occasional slap on the butt but things like throwing your kid down stairs, choking you child out because they aren’t doing the dishes properly, or telling your child that they will never love anyone, that they are fucking worthless, and when your kid is trying to remember something and is trying to get you to help you don’t fucking cuss and curse at them.

[Thermodolia]

Yeah I turned out fine

Technically I did to, I was abused and it sucked took me years to get over it, but yes in the end I did actually turn out ok. Does that mean abuse is good? Hell the fuck no

[Galloism]

This is why "yes/no" threads don't work, because there is a world of difference between this and someone that's whipping their kid's ass with a belt every time he gets a little spunky.

Exactly. What Ethel did isn’t child abuse, and unfortunately I know personally that it’s not. You see child abuse isn’t the occasional slap on the butt but things like throwing your kid down stairs, choking you child out because they aren’t doing the dishes properly, or telling your child that they will never love anyone, that they are fucking worthless, and when your kid is trying to remember something and is trying to get you to help you don’t fucking cuss and curse at them.

I’m going to point something out with this post.

Not all physical correction is abuse. Nor is all abuse physical. Read this post - some of the abuse listed there is physical (throwing down stairs, choking) but a lot of the most hurtful abuse probably isn’t. You “will never love anyone” and “fucking worthless” or cursing when the kid is trying to help.

I won’t hazard to speak for all abuse victims, and even less so for therm, but those verbal abuses can cut deeper and last longer in some cases than even some of the most extreme physical abuse.

[Thermodolia]

Your personal anecdotes don't contradict more widely collected data.

"Corporal punishment doesn't have the benefits people believe it does" isn't widely collected data.

It doesn’t. I can use my anecdotes of being chased around the house by a screaming father for not doing the dishes the exact way he wants or doing them fast enough. Which resulted in me getting tossed down some stairs after being grabbed by back of my shirt collar.

Every night I’d go to bed fearing what would happen the next day. When I got a phone, I kept that thing under my pillow all night because I was that fucking scared. For years I wished that the police would break that front door down and save me.

Corporal punishment does not fucking work

[Galloism]

"Corporal punishment doesn't have the benefits people believe it does" isn't widely collected data.

It doesn’t. I can use my anecdotes of being chased around the house by a screaming father for not doing the dishes the exact way he wants or doing them fast enough. Which resulted in me getting tossed down some stairs after being grabbed by back of my shirt collar.

Every night I’d go to bed fearing what would happen the next day. When I got a phone, I kept that thing under my pillow all night because I was that fucking scared. For years I wished that the police would break that front door down and save me.

Corporal punishment does not fucking work

That’s not really corporal punishment though.

And last time we had this thread, we went through the data, which has some really unexpected racial elements - corporal punishment was correlated with better outcomes in the black community, but worse ones in the white community.

And no one is quite sure why.

[CoraSpia]

I always saw corporal punishment as a way of the parents taking out their stress on someone who can't fight back.

[Thermodolia]

Exactly. What Ethel did isn’t child abuse, and unfortunately I know personally that it’s not. You see child abuse isn’t the occasional slap on the butt but things like throwing your kid down stairs, choking you child out because they aren’t doing the dishes properly, or telling your child that they will never love anyone, that they are fucking worthless, and when your kid is trying to remember something and is trying to get you to help you don’t fucking cuss and curse at them.

I’m going to point something out with this post.

Not all physical correction is abuse. Nor is all abuse physical. Read this post - some of the abuse listed there is physical (throwing down stairs, choking) but a lot of the most hurtful abuse probably isn’t. You “will never love anyone” and “fucking worthless” or cursing when the kid is trying to help.

I won’t hazard to speak for all abuse victims, and even less so for therm, but those verbal abuses can cut deeper and last longer in some cases than even some of the most extreme physical abuse.

Yup. Those words especially the, “you never love anyone”, bit has caused me a lot of problems in the dating world. Hell growing up I never really had a actual hobby, don’t get me wrong I had hobbies but they where always superficial and never lasted for more than a few months. All of this was because my parents would accuse me of being stupid or say I wasn’t getting enough physical activity if I went too deep into a hobby. Hell I killed hobbies I liked because of that, hobbies ive rediscovered like painting.

[CoraSpia]

This is why "yes/no" threads don't work, because there is a world of difference between this and someone that's whipping their kid's ass with a belt every time he gets a little spunky.

Exactly. What Ethel did isn’t child abuse, and unfortunately I know personally that it’s not. You see child abuse isn’t the occasional slap on the butt but things like throwing your kid down stairs, choking you child out because they aren’t doing the dishes properly, or telling your child that they will never love anyone, that they are fucking worthless, and when your kid is trying to remember something and is trying to get you to help you don’t fucking cuss and curse at them.

I'd apply the same standards to someone hitting their kids that you find applied to people who hit their partners. It might not be child abuse, but it also shouldn't be seen as acceptable.

[Thermodolia]

It's abusive, cruel, and ineffective. It just teaches children that their parents hate them and that they should avoid being caught.

I became a great liar because of the shit my parents pulled. It was better to lie than tell the truth and face their rath

[Galloism]

Exactly. What Ethel did isn’t child abuse, and unfortunately I know personally that it’s not. You see child abuse isn’t the occasional slap on the butt but things like throwing your kid down stairs, choking you child out because they aren’t doing the dishes properly, or telling your child that they will never love anyone, that they are fucking worthless, and when your kid is trying to remember something and is trying to get you to help you don’t fucking cuss and curse at them.

I'd apply the same standards to someone hitting their kids that you find applied to people who hit their partners. It might not be child abuse, but it also shouldn't be seen as acceptable.

Tbh, I’d think it really not ok to force medical procedures on your partner against their will, but I’m pretty ok with doing so to children in most cases, even though it would be assault to do it to adults.

[Thermodolia]

Making kids do extra chores without pay makes sense, making em do laps and pushups as a form of punishment though? That's very strange and a bit questionable.

In general, making a kid do exercise as a punishment seems like an excellent way to make them hate exercise, which seems rather counterproductive.

And I wonder why I never liked exercise as a kid

[CoraSpia]

I'd apply the same standards to someone hitting their kids that you find applied to people who hit their partners. It might not be child abuse, but it also shouldn't be seen as acceptable.

Tbh, I’d think it really not ok to force medical procedures on your partner against their will, but I’m pretty ok with doing so to children in most cases, even though it would be assault to do it to adults.

Medical procedures are usually medically necessary (the ones that are not shouldn't be done to children against their will obviously.) Throwing your child against the wall isn't necessary by any reasonable definition. It's assault.

[Thermodolia]

Often it works, in all honesty, but should be the last resort. I remember some times when I was younger that I mouthed off to my dad or quite frankly acted like a total asshole and he wasn't afraid to show his dominion in the home...never once did he hit me but the ability was there and he showed it.

In a healthy family, though, the thought that you have let your parents down in some way is a lot more painful than any corporal punishment. One of the most painful examples was when I was doing really bad in classes in 7th grade, i.e. 13 years old, due to goofing off and not caring about the work...I remember that they acted in a way that showed they were disappointed by simply not caring anymore. They were so involved in my education before and this lack of involvement hurt me more than any physical punishment I could have received.

After I moved in with my grandparents I did something or I didn’t do something and all I remember is that my grandmother told me she was very disappointed in me. She didn’t hit me or scream or anything else. All she said was that she was disappointed in me.

That cut deep. And changed me more than any of the shit my parents did.

[Galloism]

Tbh, I’d think it really not ok to force medical procedures on your partner against their will, but I’m pretty ok with doing so to children in most cases, even though it would be assault to do it to adults.

Medical procedures are usually medically necessary (the ones that are not shouldn't be done to children against their will obviously.) Throwing your child against the wall isn't necessary by any reasonable definition. It's assault.

We actually do a lot of medically beneficial but not medically necessary procedures to children. Frequently without their consent or even against their will. Namely, we do so as children to benefit them long into adulthood.

Besides that, if you force medical procedures on adults against their will, it’s assault even if it’s necessary.

The fact you take corporal punishment as “throwing your child against the wall” and not “here’s a spanking since nothing else has worked to show you how important it is not to play in traffic” notwithstanding, the trade in the latter case is similar in nature and intent to a medical procedure. Namely, it involves some pain now in order to provide benefits now and later to the child.

[The Three Palins]

intimidation is always the best solution, you don't have to inflict punishment, just show that it could happen, and if it does happen, it's gonna hurt, A lot.
Deterance is key

Intimidation instils resentment.
Intimidation occasionally reinforced with bouts of pain to give it credibility, instils personal hatred.

Depending on the child, the parent, their immediate circumstances (what money can buy), their wider circumstances (town they live in), and who knows what, punishment may or may not be necessary to keep children dutiful.

What's the most important factor there? I thought it was "the child". Some children, for some reason, above the age of 4 or so, want to please their parent(s) always. There is pretty much nothing they could do which would call for punishment from their parents. They will still do things wrong, particularly in the random legion of a school class, where there are a dozen different influences at once.

Suppose you're a parent of a six year old boy. He's at school, which has been going very well so far. Reports have been good, he's well above average academically thanks to your home preparation. No signs of nerd, but in a way that's good. He's not super talented but it's good that he put in effort for every subject, even though he doesn't like music or art. Nobody ever got poor from not liking music or art, right? And nobody who got rich did it without putting in effort to everything. There are even pleasing references to his good behaviour and "conflict resolution skills".

[spoiler=But one day the Principal calls you about something disruptive your son did in class]But one day the Principal calls your home and says "he's usually well-behaved but today he dropped a pen on the floor, he says, and tried to catch it but just knocked it behind his chair. I'm just telling you what he said. He got out of his chair to get the pencil, and Master Raigun who was taking the class did not mind that, it seemed a brief but necessary breach of class discipline. When picking up the pencil, though, he looked up the skirt of one of the other students. Yes the girl behind him, Asher Brooks. Yes, we find that strange too because they are good friends. Bollit does understand that girls are frightened and I guess disgusted by that sort of thing? Yes, I'm sorry to say it is quite sure. I have interviewed Master Raigun who saw Bollit's head pointing that way. Students to the side saw him look up while touching the pen, one says he already had the pen but the other says he is not sure. Mostly it's the Master and Asher herself who were so sure. Girls who wear skirts, or dresses, tend to pay close attention to anyone kneeling down near there feet. Yes, that's what we all think. It's not a matter of proving it! I'm calling you to inform you, OK I'll listen. Yes, yes, no number of witnesses, I understand that. But the girl, Asher, was quite distraught. She, squirmed they say, and did something with the hem, well it's not clear, but most witnesses said she tried to pull it tights so it wouldn't be. Wait, that's only ... Kinka who was sitting a little way back. I understand your misunderstanding, it's hard to say these things without the class diagram, but easier if you know your boy Bollit and his friend Asher behind him, are seated on the right hand side of the classroom, so there are students in the row to their left but none ... good. I have no problem with a written version. With a diagram of the classroom. Sir! It's me, Susan the principle! Please don't be rude to me. Making our school a better place for students and staff, I know, really, it's my whole life. I have no children of my own, both my parents have died, and to be brutally frank my interest in various male itinerants in the past years, is more about wishing to be somehow free of responsibility, than genuinely seeking a new partner. As thought I could do that in my personal life and it would make my professional life easier. Yes. Oh yes, it is a personal call. We were friends in school, though you may not remember. Yes there were lots of other girls and I, yes. I'm not ordering you in any way, I have no power to do that, but as a friend Ray I'm asking you, please talk to your boy. He seems curious about what is up a girl's dress, or skirt, so maybe talk to him about ... that. Well, sort of. The Talk, as they say, but good parents give the Talk a little at a time. Yes, but this IS my area of expertise. I've studied a lot since we were in, the same school. And so have you. Concrete engineer, if I remember, and off the top of my head, that's an engineering degree and a one year extension, PLUS a trade apprenticeship where you have to work with other engineers and meet their standards. Whew. You're being a real hardass, you know that? Forget the personal stuff. We are both qualified professionals. I'm trying to be your friend, and tell you something that matters to you and your boy, and be professional, and be Susan who has her own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not good at small talk, I should never have tried. Your boy who has been wonderful, just a great kid and all the teachers say so, did a thing that surprised and disturbed a lot of the, well to be honest, it surprised his friend Asher so much, she came straight to me. At first I thought she came to confess to something, she said she had got a friend into trouble. But she came straight to me, she said "Mistress I want to talk about something" and it was quite hard to get the thing out of her. Yeah, it is taking a while to get to the point. Yeah, we will be here all night unless you listen straight or hang up. I've told you enough, do you want to hang up? I think it's a turning point in his life. How girls respond to his curiosity in the future, will depend on how he handles curiosity about the yes sexual parts, of all his female friends. Bollit needs some guidance and I have nothing to lose now. Patricia is a bitch, she's smart but she's mean and no-one trusts her. I don't care what, yes I am talking about your wife, Patricia, but whatever you have to tell her make sure you talk to Bollit about this, before your dear wife Patricia. Yes that is sarcasm. Dear as in expensive. It's not personal, Ray, it's all about Bollit. Talk to him, please. <hangup>"

Do you ask your son some questions to check the Principal has it right, and tell him plainly "don't look up women's skirts" and punish him?

Or do you take your son's side from the start, and ask him questions about the evidence? "The girl to the left of you, in the other file, she was? Yes, OK, do you think she really saw what you were doing with the pen?" and such easy questions? Help him reinforce "his side" of the story before YOU have really heard it?

Or do you let him do most of the talking. There was a ruckus at school, where there are hundreds of kids, and all sorts of kids have asked him "what really happened?" and he's given various different answers. You could have protected him long before this, teach him "when in fear of perjury, stay silent" or the more school-ready, "if I can't remember your name, then it's none of your business, so fuck off". The little dude has told people "his story" so many times, he can't just change it, but maybe you can save him from believing it himself.

The life lesson "don't look up women's skirts" could veer either way.

It could get stricter, ie "I know what a pussy looks like, duh, I've eaten out, but I've never actually seen up a woman's skirt. I guess panties, but maybe the holy trinity. I should just ask a woman who's my friend, but she might react badly and and unfriend me. I could get a prostitute to do it for me? Prostitution is wrong, but maybe saving a poor woman from prostitution, for an hour, would actually be virtuous, pay them not to ... but easy virtue is no virtue at all. I am so confused. I will have to pray, but first check the internet.

Or it could get looser. You keep trying to look up girl's skirts, without the girl noticing (it's not wrong, getting caught is what's wrong), and sometimes succeeding, that you learn enormous amounts about short dresses, skirts, tight shorts, loose-but-short shorts, and chicks wearing bikini bottoms and rather delightful sandals. So you're a fetishist, that's OK, just don't do it with anyone but a consenting adult partner.

You continue your research. Random attraction due to panty colour is definitely a major effect. You are definitely going to publish and peer review is a cinch, at least for Perversions of Psychology which is the premier publication of the field of Pornification. You're cognizant of the field, having read everything and being nearly half way through the supplementary documents.

Then one day you do what some researchers do: leave the beaten track in pursuit of exciting new data. You're on a train, observing some data. New, out of model data gets you very excited, but also afraid. It might break the model, badly. What if all previous specimens were doing less than possible to obscure their own data?

She stands up. Data cut short. She's running away after doing that bold thing. Unmistakeable mating behaviour. But a good researcher needs to sometimes disregard the good or bad feelings of the specimen. Remain in observation of the specimen. Stalking? No, just up-stairs walking. Intentions of specimen unknown. Intentions very clear, enter lift. Continue following specimen. Enter lift.

<records incomplete>

Specimen talking directly to observer. No precedent. Housing and better nutrition necessary for wellbeing of specimen, £14 invested in specimen.

Observations: The author may have been hooked by a £14 hooker, however she was just a poor girl selling sex for whatever she could get, no blame should fall on her. The researcher regrets any implication that a crime was committed, and disclaims any interest in the birth certificate or any other identifying documents of the alleged specimen.

Further observations: OK, I'm implodingly fucked. Going to trial, I have seen prosecution evidence, it's all up against the wall. Public defender wants to go with "not sex if both standing up" but duh, she kicked my bum repeatedly with her parts of foot which are at the back (below the ankles) and this is a hard thing to say, from a great scientist who longed to become great but. I may need to plead in defence the humiliating factor of Illiteracy! [/spoiler]

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

intimidation is always the best solution, you don't have to inflict punishment, just show that it could happen, and if it does happen, it's gonna hurt, A lot.
Deterance is key

Intimidation instils resentment.
Intimidation occasionally reinforced with bouts of pain to give it credibility, instils personal hatred.

Depending on the child, the parent, their immediate circumstances (what money can buy), their wider circumstances (town they live in), and who knows what, punishment may or may not be necessary to keep children dutiful.

What's the most important factor there? I thought it was "the child". Some children, for some reason, above the age of 4 or so, want to please their parent(s) always. There is pretty much nothing they could do which would call for punishment from their parents. They will still do things wrong, particularly in the random legion of a school class, where there are a dozen different influences at once.

Suppose you're a parent of a six year old boy. He's at school, which has been going very well so far. Reports have been good, he's well above average academically thanks to your home preparation. No signs of nerd, but in a way that's good. He's not super talented but it's good that he put in effort for every subject, even though he doesn't like music or art. Nobody ever got poor from not liking music or art, right? And nobody who got rich did it without putting in effort to everything. There are even pleasing references to his good behaviour and "conflict resolution skills".

[spoiler=But one day the Principal calls you about something disruptive your son did in class]But one day the Principal calls your home and says "he's usually well-behaved but today he dropped a pen on the floor, he says, and tried to catch it but just knocked it behind his chair. I'm just telling you what he said. He got out of his chair to get the pencil, and Master Raigun who was taking the class did not mind that, it seemed a brief but necessary breach of class discipline. When picking up the pencil, though, he looked up the skirt of one of the other students. Yes the girl behind him, Asher Brooks. Yes, we find that strange too because they are good friends. Bollit does understand that girls are frightened and I guess disgusted by that sort of thing? Yes, I'm sorry to say it is quite sure. I have interviewed Master Raigun who saw Bollit's head pointing that way. Students to the side saw him look up while touching the pen, one says he already had the pen but the other says he is not sure. Mostly it's the Master and Asher herself who were so sure. Girls who wear skirts, or dresses, tend to pay close attention to anyone kneeling down near there feet. Yes, that's what we all think. It's not a matter of proving it! I'm calling you to inform you, OK I'll listen. Yes, yes, no number of witnesses, I understand that. But the girl, Asher, was quite distraught. She, squirmed they say, and did something with the hem, well it's not clear, but most witnesses said she tried to pull it tights so it wouldn't be. Wait, that's only ... Kinka who was sitting a little way back. I understand your misunderstanding, it's hard to say these things without the class diagram, but easier if you know your boy Bollit and his friend Asher behind him, are seated on the right hand side of the classroom, so there are students in the row to their left but none ... good. I have no problem with a written version. With a diagram of the classroom. Sir! It's me, Susan the principle! Please don't be rude to me. Making our school a better place for students and staff, I know, really, it's my whole life. I have no children of my own, both my parents have died, and to be brutally frank my interest in various male itinerants in the past years, is more about wishing to be somehow free of responsibility, than genuinely seeking a new partner. As thought I could do that in my personal life and it would make my professional life easier. Yes. Oh yes, it is a personal call. We were friends in school, though you may not remember. Yes there were lots of other girls and I, yes. I'm not ordering you in any way, I have no power to do that, but as a friend Ray I'm asking you, please talk to your boy. He seems curious about what is up a girl's dress, or skirt, so maybe talk to him about ... that. Well, sort of. The Talk, as they say, but good parents give the Talk a little at a time. Yes, but this IS my area of expertise. I've studied a lot since we were in, the same school. And so have you. Concrete engineer, if I remember, and off the top of my head, that's an engineering degree and a one year extension, PLUS a trade apprenticeship where you have to work with other engineers and meet their standards. Whew. You're being a real hardass, you know that? Forget the personal stuff. We are both qualified professionals. I'm trying to be your friend, and tell you something that matters to you and your boy, and be professional, and be Susan who has her own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not good at small talk, I should never have tried. Your boy who has been wonderful, just a great kid and all the teachers say so, did a thing that surprised and disturbed a lot of the, well to be honest, it surprised his friend Asher so much, she came straight to me. At first I thought she came to confess to something, she said she had got a friend into trouble. But she came straight to me, she said "Mistress I want to talk about something" and it was quite hard to get the thing out of her. Yeah, it is taking a while to get to the point. Yeah, we will be here all night unless you listen straight or hang up. I've told you enough, do you want to hang up? I think it's a turning point in his life. How girls respond to his curiosity in the future, will depend on how he handles curiosity about the yes sexual parts, of all his female friends. Bollit needs some guidance and I have nothing to lose now. Patricia is a bitch, she's smart but she's mean and no-one trusts her. I don't care what, yes I am talking about your wife, Patricia, but whatever you have to tell her make sure you talk to Bollit about this, before your dear wife Patricia. Yes that is sarcasm. Dear as in expensive. It's not personal, Ray, it's all about Bollit. Talk to him, please. <hangup>"

Do you ask your son some questions to check the Principal has it right, and tell him plainly "don't look up women's skirts" and punish him?

Or do you take your son's side from the start, and ask him questions about the evidence? "The girl to the left of you, in the other file, she was? Yes, OK, do you think she really saw what you were doing with the pen?" and such easy questions? Help him reinforce "his side" of the story before YOU have really heard it?

Or do you let him do most of the talking. There was a ruckus at school, where there are hundreds of kids, and all sorts of kids have asked him "what really happened?" and he's given various different answers. You could have protected him long before this, teach him "when in fear of perjury, stay silent" or the more school-ready, "if I can't remember your name, then it's none of your business, so fuck off". The little dude has told people "his story" so many times, he can't just change it, but maybe you can save him from believing it himself.

The life lesson "don't look up women's skirts" could veer either way.

It could get stricter, ie "I know what a pussy looks like, duh, I've eaten out, but I've never actually seen up a woman's skirt. I guess panties, but maybe the holy trinity. I should just ask a woman who's my friend, but she might react badly and and unfriend me. I could get a prostitute to do it for me? Prostitution is wrong, but maybe saving a poor woman from prostitution, for an hour, would actually be virtuous, pay them not to ... but easy virtue is no virtue at all. I am so confused. I will have to pray, but first check the internet.

Or it could get looser. You keep trying to look up girl's skirts, without the girl noticing (it's not wrong, getting caught is what's wrong), and sometimes succeeding, that you learn enormous amounts about short dresses, skirts, tight shorts, loose-but-short shorts, and chicks wearing bikini bottoms and rather delightful sandals. So you're a fetishist, that's OK, just don't do it with anyone but a consenting adult partner.

You continue your research. Random attraction due to panty colour is definitely a major effect. You are definitely going to publish and peer review is a cinch, at least for Perversions of Psychology which is the premier publication of the field of Pornification. You're cognizant of the field, having read everything and being nearly half way through the supplementary documents.

Then one day you do what some researchers do: leave the beaten track in pursuit of exciting new data. You're on a train, observing some data. New, out of model data gets you very excited, but also afraid. It might break the model, badly. What if all previous specimens were doing less than possible to obscure their own data?

She stands up. Data cut short. She's running away after doing that bold thing. Unmistakeable mating behaviour. But a good researcher needs to sometimes disregard the good or bad feelings of the specimen. Remain in observation of the specimen. Stalking? No, just up-stairs walking. Intentions of specimen unknown. Intentions very clear, enter lift. Continue following specimen. Enter lift.

<records incomplete>

Specimen talking directly to observer. No precedent. Housing and better nutrition necessary for wellbeing of specimen, £14 invested in specimen.

Observations: The author may have been hooked by a £14 hooker, however she was just a poor girl selling sex for whatever she could get, no blame should fall on her. The researcher regrets any implication that a crime was committed, and disclaims any interest in the birth certificate or any other identifying documents of the alleged specimen.

Further observations: OK, I'm implodingly fucked. Going to trial, I have seen prosecution evidence, it's all up against the wall. Public defender wants to go with "not sex if both standing up" but duh, she kicked my bum repeatedly with her parts of foot which are at the back (below the ankles) and this is a hard thing to say, from a great scientist who longed to become great but. I may need to plead in defence the humiliating factor of Illiteracy! [/spoiler]

The dark truth is that in more authoritarian societies the child will grow up knowing that they can not defy their parents. However they will be able to enjoy abusing their kids just like how their parents abused them. To sustain authoritarianism the level of abuse needs to be sustained if not increased.

[The Three Palins]

intimidation is always the best solution, you don't have to inflict punishment, just show that it could happen, and if it does happen, it's gonna hurt, A lot.
Deterance is key

Intimidation instils resentment.
Intimidation occasionally reinforced with bouts of pain to give it credibility, instils personal hatred.

Depending on the child, the parent, their immediate circumstances (what money can buy), their wider circumstances (town they live in), and who knows what, punishment may or may not be necessary to keep children dutiful.

What's the most important factor there? I thought it was "the child". Some children, for some reason, above the age of 4 or so, want to please their parent(s) always. There is pretty much nothing they could do which would call for punishment from their parents. They will still do things wrong, particularly in the random legion of a school class, where there are a dozen different influences at once.

Here's some more if you're interested in the psychological influence of primary carers on little people, from a nutbag in a fruitcake in a giant squid's belly having a disco with compulsory chessboxing, with no social distancing because we do weird and don't discriminate against any kind of virus:

Suppose you're a parent of a six year old boy. He's at school, which has been going very well so far. Reports have been good, he's well above average academically thanks to your home preparation. No signs of nerd, but in a way that's good. He's not super talented but it's good that he put in effort for every subject, even though he doesn't like music or art. Nobody ever got poor from not liking music or art, right? And nobody who got rich did it without putting in effort to everything. There are even pleasing references to his good behaviour and "conflict resolution skills".

But one day the Principal calls you about something disruptive your son did in class]But one day the Principal calls your home and says "he's usually well-behaved but today he dropped a pen on the floor, he says, and tried to catch it but just knocked it behind his chair. I'm just telling you what he said. He got out of his chair to get the pencil, and Master Raigun who was taking the class did not mind that, it seemed a brief but necessary breach of class discipline. When picking up the pencil, though, he looked up the skirt of one of the other students. Yes the girl behind him, Asher Brooks. Yes, we find that strange too because they are good friends. Bollit does understand that girls are frightened and I guess disgusted by that sort of thing? Yes, I'm sorry to say it is quite sure. I have interviewed Master Raigun who saw Bollit's head pointing that way. Students to the side saw him look up while touching the pen, one says he already had the pen but the other says he is not sure. Mostly it's the Master and Asher herself who were so sure. Girls who wear skirts, or dresses, tend to pay close attention to anyone kneeling down near there feet. Yes, that's what we all think. It's not a matter of proving it! I'm calling you to inform you, OK I'll listen. Yes, yes, no number of witnesses, I understand that. But the girl, Asher, was quite distraught. She, squirmed they say, and did something with the hem, well it's not clear, but most witnesses said she tried to pull it tights so it wouldn't be. Wait, that's only ... Kinka who was sitting a little way back. I understand your misunderstanding, it's hard to say these things without the class diagram, but easier if you know your boy Bollit and his friend Asher behind him, are seated on the right hand side of the classroom, so there are students in the row to their left but none ... good. I have no problem with a written version. With a diagram of the classroom. Sir! It's me, Susan the principle! Please don't be rude to me. Making our school a better place for students and staff, I know, really, it's my whole life. I have no children of my own, both my parents have died, and to be brutally frank my interest in various male itinerants in the past years, is more about wishing to be somehow free of responsibility, than genuinely seeking a new partner. As thought I could do that in my personal life and it would make my professional life easier. Yes. Oh yes, it is a personal call. We were friends in school, though you may not remember. Yes there were lots of other girls and I, yes. I'm not ordering you in any way, I have no power to do that, but as a friend Ray I'm asking you, please talk to your boy. He seems curious about what is up a girl's dress, or skirt, so maybe talk to him about ... that. Well, sort of. The Talk, as they say, but good parents give the Talk a little at a time. Yes, but this IS my area of expertise. I've studied a lot since we were in, the same school. And so have you. Concrete engineer, if I remember, and off the top of my head, that's an engineering degree and a one year extension, PLUS a trade apprenticeship where you have to work with other engineers and meet their standards. Whew. You're being a real hardass, you know that? Forget the personal stuff. We are both qualified professionals. I'm trying to be your friend, and tell you something that matters to you and your boy, and be professional, and be Susan who has her own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not good at small talk, I should never have tried. Your boy who has been wonderful, just a great kid and all the teachers say so, did a thing that surprised and disturbed a lot of the, well to be honest, it surprised his friend Asher so much, she came straight to me. At first I thought she came to confess to something, she said she had got a friend into trouble. But she came straight to me, she said "Mistress I want to talk about something" and it was quite hard to get the thing out of her. Yeah, it is taking a while to get to the point. Yeah, we will be here all night unless you listen straight or hang up. I've told you enough, do you want to hang up? I think it's a turning point in his life. How girls respond to his curiosity in the future, will depend on how he handles curiosity about the yes sexual parts, of all his female friends. Bollit needs some guidance and I have nothing to lose now. Patricia is a bitch, she's smart but she's mean and no-one trusts her. I don't care what, yes I am talking about your wife, Patricia, but whatever you have to tell her make sure you talk to Bollit about this, before your dear wife Patricia. Yes that is sarcasm. Dear as in expensive. It's not personal, Ray, it's all about Bollit. Talk to him, please. <hangup>"

Do you ask your son some questions to check the Principal has it right, and tell him plainly "don't look up women's skirts" and punish him?

Or do you take your son's side from the start, and ask him questions about the evidence? "The girl to the left of you, in the other file, she was? Yes, OK, do you think she really saw what you were doing with the pen?" and other such easy questions? Help him reinforce "his side" of the story before YOU have really heard it?

Or do you let him do most of the talking. There was a ruckus at school, where there are hundreds of kids, and all sorts of kids have asked him "what really happened?" and he's given various different answers. You could have protected him long before this, teach him "when in fear of perjury, stay silent" or the more school-ready, "if I can't remember your name, then it's none of your business, so fuck off". The little dude has told people "his story" so many times, he can't just change it, but maybe you can save him from believing it himself.

The life lesson "don't look up women's skirts" could veer either way.

It could get stricter, ie "I know what a pussy looks like, duh, I've eaten out, but I've never actually seen up a woman's skirt. I guess panties, but maybe the holy trinity. I should just ask a woman who's my friend, but she might react badly and and unfriend me. I could get a prostitute to do it for me? Prostitution is wrong, but maybe saving a poor woman from prostitution, for an hour, would actually be virtuous, pay them not to ... but easy virtue is no virtue at all. I am so confused. I will have to pray, but first check the internet.

Or it could get looser. You keep trying to look up girl's skirts, without the girl noticing (it's not wrong, getting caught is what's wrong), and sometimes succeeding, that you learn enormous amounts about short dresses, skirts, tight shorts, loose-but-short shorts, and chicks wearing bikini bottoms and rather delightful sandals. So you're a fetishist, that's OK, just don't do it with anyone but a consenting adult partner.

You continue your research. Random attraction due to panty colour is definitely a major effect. You are definitely going to publish and peer review is a cinch, at least for Perversions of Psychology which is the premier publication of the field of Pornification. You're cognizant of the field, having read everything and being nearly half way through the supplementary documents.

Then one day you do what some researchers do: leave the beaten track in pursuit of exciting new data. You're on a train, observing some data. New, out of model data gets you very excited, but also afraid. It might break the model, badly. What if all previous specimens were doing less than possible to obscure their own data?

She stands up. Data cut short. She's running away after doing that bold thing. Unmistakeable mating behaviour. But a good researcher needs to sometimes disregard the good or bad feelings of the specimen. Remain in observation of the specimen. Stalking? No, just up-stairs walking. Intentions of specimen unknown. Intentions very clear, enter lift. Continue following specimen. Enter lift.

<records incomplete>

Specimen talking directly to observer. No precedent. Housing and better nutrition necessary for wellbeing of specimen, £14 invested in specimen.

Observations: The author may have been hooked by a £14 hooker, however she was just a poor girl selling sex for whatever she could get, no blame should fall on her. The researcher regrets any implication that a crime was committed, and disclaims any interest in the birth certificate or any other identifying documents of the alleged specimen.

Further observations: OK, I'm implodingly fucked. Going to trial, I have seen prosecution evidence, it's all up against the wall. Public defender wants to go with "not sex if both standing up" but duh, she kicked my bum repeatedly with her parts of foot which are at the back (below the ankles) and this is a hard thing to say, from a great scientist who longed to become great but. I may need to plead in defence the humiliating factor of Illiteracy!

[CoraSpia]

Medical procedures are usually medically necessary (the ones that are not shouldn't be done to children against their will obviously.) Throwing your child against the wall isn't necessary by any reasonable definition. It's assault.

We actually do a lot of medically beneficial but not medically necessary procedures to children. Frequently without their consent or even against their will. Namely, we do so as children to benefit them long into adulthood.

Besides that, if you force medical procedures on adults against their will, it’s assault even if it’s necessary.

The fact you take corporal punishment as “throwing your child against the wall” and not “here’s a spanking since nothing else has worked to show you how important it is not to play in traffic” notwithstanding, the trade in the latter case is similar in nature and intent to a medical procedure. Namely, it involves some pain now in order to provide benefits now and later to the child.

I was commenting on the example that Ethel gave, which is why I mentioned throwing your child against a wall. I'm not sure that hurting a child can ever provide benefits later honestly.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

intimidation is always the best solution, you don't have to inflict punishment, just show that it could happen, and if it does happen, it's gonna hurt, A lot.
Deterance is key

Intimidation instils resentment.
Intimidation occasionally reinforced with bouts of pain to give it credibility, instils personal hatred.

Depending on the child, the parent, their immediate circumstances (what money can buy), their wider circumstances (town they live in), and who knows what, punishment may or may not be necessary to keep children dutiful.

What's the most important factor there? I thought it was "the child". Some children, for some reason, above the age of 4 or so, want to please their parent(s) always. There is pretty much nothing they could do which would call for punishment from their parents. They will still do things wrong, particularly in the random legion of a school class, where there are a dozen different influences at once.

Here's some more if you're interested in the psychological influence of primary carers on little people, from a nutbag in a fruitcake in a giant squid's belly having a disco with compulsory chessboxing, with no social distancing because we do weird and don't discriminate against any kind of virus:

Suppose you're a parent of a six year old boy. He's at school, which has been going very well so far. Reports have been good, he's well above average academically thanks to your home preparation. No signs of nerd, but in a way that's good. He's not super talented but it's good that he put in effort for every subject, even though he doesn't like music or art. Nobody ever got poor from not liking music or art, right? And nobody who got rich did it without putting in effort to everything. There are even pleasing references to his good behaviour and "conflict resolution skills".

But one day the Principal calls you about something disruptive your son did in class]But one day the Principal calls your home and says "he's usually well-behaved but today he dropped a pen on the floor, he says, and tried to catch it but just knocked it behind his chair. I'm just telling you what he said. He got out of his chair to get the pencil, and Master Raigun who was taking the class did not mind that, it seemed a brief but necessary breach of class discipline. When picking up the pencil, though, he looked up the skirt of one of the other students. Yes the girl behind him, Asher Brooks. Yes, we find that strange too because they are good friends. Bollit does understand that girls are frightened and I guess disgusted by that sort of thing? Yes, I'm sorry to say it is quite sure. I have interviewed Master Raigun who saw Bollit's head pointing that way. Students to the side saw him look up while touching the pen, one says he already had the pen but the other says he is not sure. Mostly it's the Master and Asher herself who were so sure. Girls who wear skirts, or dresses, tend to pay close attention to anyone kneeling down near there feet. Yes, that's what we all think. It's not a matter of proving it! I'm calling you to inform you, OK I'll listen. Yes, yes, no number of witnesses, I understand that. But the girl, Asher, was quite distraught. She, squirmed they say, and did something with the hem, well it's not clear, but most witnesses said she tried to pull it tights so it wouldn't be. Wait, that's only ... Kinka who was sitting a little way back. I understand your misunderstanding, it's hard to say these things without the class diagram, but easier if you know your boy Bollit and his friend Asher behind him, are seated on the right hand side of the classroom, so there are students in the row to their left but none ... good. I have no problem with a written version. With a diagram of the classroom. Sir! It's me, Susan the principle! Please don't be rude to me. Making our school a better place for students and staff, I know, really, it's my whole life. I have no children of my own, both my parents have died, and to be brutally frank my interest in various male itinerants in the past years, is more about wishing to be somehow free of responsibility, than genuinely seeking a new partner. As thought I could do that in my personal life and it would make my professional life easier. Yes. Oh yes, it is a personal call. We were friends in school, though you may not remember. Yes there were lots of other girls and I, yes. I'm not ordering you in any way, I have no power to do that, but as a friend Ray I'm asking you, please talk to your boy. He seems curious about what is up a girl's dress, or skirt, so maybe talk to him about ... that. Well, sort of. The Talk, as they say, but good parents give the Talk a little at a time. Yes, but this IS my area of expertise. I've studied a lot since we were in, the same school. And so have you. Concrete engineer, if I remember, and off the top of my head, that's an engineering degree and a one year extension, PLUS a trade apprenticeship where you have to work with other engineers and meet their standards. Whew. You're being a real hardass, you know that? Forget the personal stuff. We are both qualified professionals. I'm trying to be your friend, and tell you something that matters to you and your boy, and be professional, and be Susan who has her own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not good at small talk, I should never have tried. Your boy who has been wonderful, just a great kid and all the teachers say so, did a thing that surprised and disturbed a lot of the, well to be honest, it surprised his friend Asher so much, she came straight to me. At first I thought she came to confess to something, she said she had got a friend into trouble. But she came straight to me, she said "Mistress I want to talk about something" and it was quite hard to get the thing out of her. Yeah, it is taking a while to get to the point. Yeah, we will be here all night unless you listen straight or hang up. I've told you enough, do you want to hang up? I think it's a turning point in his life. How girls respond to his curiosity in the future, will depend on how he handles curiosity about the yes sexual parts, of all his female friends. Bollit needs some guidance and I have nothing to lose now. Patricia is a bitch, she's smart but she's mean and no-one trusts her. I don't care what, yes I am talking about your wife, Patricia, but whatever you have to tell her make sure you talk to Bollit about this, before your dear wife Patricia. Yes that is sarcasm. Dear as in expensive. It's not personal, Ray, it's all about Bollit. Talk to him, please. <hangup>"

Do you ask your son some questions to check the Principal has it right, and tell him plainly "don't look up women's skirts" and punish him?

Or do you take your son's side from the start, and ask him questions about the evidence? "The girl to the left of you, in the other file, she was? Yes, OK, do you think she really saw what you were doing with the pen?" and other such easy questions? Help him reinforce "his side" of the story before YOU have really heard it?

Or do you let him do most of the talking. There was a ruckus at school, where there are hundreds of kids, and all sorts of kids have asked him "what really happened?" and he's given various different answers. You could have protected him long before this, teach him "when in fear of perjury, stay silent" or the more school-ready, "if I can't remember your name, then it's none of your business, so fuck off". The little dude has told people "his story" so many times, he can't just change it, but maybe you can save him from believing it himself.

The life lesson "don't look up women's skirts" could veer either way.

It could get stricter, ie "I know what a pussy looks like, duh, I've eaten out, but I've never actually seen up a woman's skirt. I guess panties, but maybe the holy trinity. I should just ask a woman who's my friend, but she might react badly and and unfriend me. I could get a prostitute to do it for me? Prostitution is wrong, but maybe saving a poor woman from prostitution, for an hour, would actually be virtuous, pay them not to ... but easy virtue is no virtue at all. I am so confused. I will have to pray, but first check the internet.

Or it could get looser. You keep trying to look up girl's skirts, without the girl noticing (it's not wrong, getting caught is what's wrong), and sometimes succeeding, that you learn enormous amounts about short dresses, skirts, tight shorts, loose-but-short shorts, and chicks wearing bikini bottoms and rather delightful sandals. So you're a fetishist, that's OK, just don't do it with anyone but a consenting adult partner.

You continue your research. Random attraction due to panty colour is definitely a major effect. You are definitely going to publish and peer review is a cinch, at least for Perversions of Psychology which is the premier publication of the field of Pornification. You're cognizant of the field, having read everything and being nearly half way through the supplementary documents.

Then one day you do what some researchers do: leave the beaten track in pursuit of exciting new data. You're on a train, observing some data. New, out of model data gets you very excited, but also afraid. It might break the model, badly. What if all previous specimens were doing less than possible to obscure their own data?

She stands up. Data cut short. She's running away after doing that bold thing. Unmistakeable mating behaviour. But a good researcher needs to sometimes disregard the good or bad feelings of the specimen. Remain in observation of the specimen. Stalking? No, just up-stairs walking. Intentions of specimen unknown. Intentions very clear, enter lift. Continue following specimen. Enter lift.

<records incomplete>

Specimen talking directly to observer. No precedent. Housing and better nutrition necessary for wellbeing of specimen, £14 invested in specimen.

Observations: The author may have been hooked by a £14 hooker, however she was just a poor girl selling sex for whatever she could get, no blame should fall on her. The researcher regrets any implication that a crime was committed, and disclaims any interest in the birth certificate or any other identifying documents of the alleged specimen.

Further observations: OK, I'm implodingly fucked. Going to trial, I have seen prosecution evidence, it's all up against the wall. Public defender wants to go with "not sex if both standing up" but duh, she kicked my bum repeatedly with her parts of foot which are at the back (below the ankles) and this is a hard thing to say, from a great scientist who longed to become great but. I may need to plead in defence the humiliating factor of Illiteracy!

I already explained it.

[Galloism]

We actually do a lot of medically beneficial but not medically necessary procedures to children. Frequently without their consent or even against their will. Namely, we do so as children to benefit them long into adulthood.

Besides that, if you force medical procedures on adults against their will, it’s assault even if it’s necessary.

The fact you take corporal punishment as “throwing your child against the wall” and not “here’s a spanking since nothing else has worked to show you how important it is not to play in traffic” notwithstanding, the trade in the latter case is similar in nature and intent to a medical procedure. Namely, it involves some pain now in order to provide benefits now and later to the child.

I was commenting on the example that Ethel gave, which is why I mentioned throwing your child against a wall. I'm not sure that hurting a child can ever provide benefits later honestly.

Of course it can - we know this from the field of medicine. Getting a bone set hurts like hell, but it also provides later benefits (your bone works right) and a teaching benefit (you learn to be more careful and avoid breaking bones in the future).

[Disgraces]

"Corporal punishment doesn't have the benefits people believe it does" isn't widely collected data.

It doesn’t. I can use my anecdotes of being chased around the house by a screaming father for not doing the dishes the exact way he wants or doing them fast enough. Which resulted in me getting tossed down some stairs after being grabbed by back of my shirt collar.

Every night I’d go to bed fearing what would happen the next day. When I got a phone, I kept that thing under my pillow all night because I was that fucking scared. For years I wished that the police would break that front door down and save me.

Corporal punishment does not fucking work

Yeah I turned out fine

Technically I did to, I was abused and it sucked took me years to get over it, but yes in the end I did actually turn out ok. Does that mean abuse is good? Hell the fuck no

I'm sorry about the suffering you had to go through, but that wasn't corporal punishment; that actually was abuse.

[The Three Palins]

It doesn’t. I can use my anecdotes of being chased around the house by a screaming father for not doing the dishes the exact way he wants or doing them fast enough. Which resulted in me getting tossed down some stairs after being grabbed by back of my shirt collar.

Every night I’d go to bed fearing what would happen the next day. When I got a phone, I kept that thing under my pillow all night because I was that fucking scared. For years I wished that the police would break that front door down and save me.

Corporal punishment does not fucking work

Technically I did to, I was abused and it sucked took me years to get over it, but yes in the end I did actually turn out ok. Does that mean abuse is good? Hell the fuck no

I'm sorry about the suffering you had to go through, but that wasn't corporal punishment; that actually was abuse.

Corporal punishment without due process of law is abuse. It is cruel and creepy.




I know that's hard to argue against. If it was soft or weak, I would have qualified it.
To the subjects of authority, punishment sucks. It wouldn't be punishment otherwise.

[Disgraces]

I'm sorry about the suffering you had to go through, but that wasn't corporal punishment; that actually was abuse.

Corporal punishment without due process of law is abuse. It is cruel and creepy.




I know that's hard to argue against. If it was soft or weak, I would have qualified it.
To the subjects of authority, punishment sucks. It wouldn't be punishment otherwise.

I don't understand.

[Galloism]

I'm sorry about the suffering you had to go through, but that wasn't corporal punishment; that actually was abuse.

Corporal punishment without due process of law is abuse. It is cruel and creepy.




I know that's hard to argue against. If it was soft or weak, I would have qualified it.
To the subjects of authority, punishment sucks. It wouldn't be punishment otherwise.

Your last sentence is key to this whole thing. Parents are authorities, authorized as such by law, with certain limits in capacity. They generally are granted, either explicitly or implicitly, certain powers of state and guardianship over those in their charge:

1) Corporal punishment
2) Detention
3) Medical decision making
4) Forced education
5) Forced food choices
6) Forced labor (IE, clean your room)
7) Restrictions on travel
Restrictions on speech, right to protest
9) Restrictions on armaments (you can’t have a gun while I’m around)

To just name a few. Now, parents are subject to higher legal authorities (city, county, state, federal) in how they administer the powers the state has granted them, and they can have their authority removed if they abuse it and the state catches it, but these are all powers granted to them by the state in this instance.