PR for Beginners(A Dutch Election Thread)

[The Alma Mater]

What's the best party for getting Rutte out? I'm thinking as a non-dutch person whose only concern in the dutch election (now the Brexit deal is done) is stopping the mistreatment of hungary and Poland.

Having to agree to pay loans back and honour basic human rights is "mistreatment" now ?
But you should try Baudet. Wilders is a wildcard - he has condemned eastern Europeans, but also married one.

[Hurdergaryp]

What's the best party for getting Rutte out? I'm thinking as a non-dutch person whose only concern in the dutch election (now the Brexit deal is done) is stopping the mistreatment of hungary and Poland.

Having to agree to pay loans back and honour basic human rights is "mistreatment" now ?
But you should try Baudet. Wilders is a wildcard - he has condemned eastern Europeans, but also married one.

If that is mistreatment, we should bully the Polish and Hungarian governments even more! When authorities wage smear campaigns against judges, harass critical journalists and generally consider themselves to be above the law, they deserve to suffer for it.

[Anatoliyanskiy]

Reading through the last page made me think, what has the Socialist Party done to lose all this support? Shear ignorance from them, not realizing they need to update their platform or that they aren't radical enough? Probably both. Oh, and I completely forgot that Netherlands used open list PR! Ive personally never really understood the concept, like do the candidates who receive the most votes get elected to the HoR and not who's higher on the list? so then what's the point of giving them numbers?

[The Alma Mater]

Reading through the last page made me think, what has the Socialist Party done to lose all this support? Shear ignorance from them, not realizing they need to update their platform or that they aren't radical enough? Probably both. Oh, and I completely forgot that Netherlands used open list PR! Ive personally never really understood the concept, like do the candidates who receive the most votes get elected to the HoR and not who's higher on the list? so then what's the point of giving them numbers?

It's a combination. In principle seats are assigned by number; so if your party gets 10 seats, the nrs 1 till 10 get a seat and nr 11 etc are out of luck.
However, if one of those people low on the list get a significant amount of votes, they will have precedence.

The rule is roughtly "if you personally gained at least 25% of the votes required to get a seat, and if the number you gained is higher than the person placed lowest on the list that would otherwise get a seat - the seat is yours instead".

[Theaca]

I'm new to the Netherlands but I am kinda excited about the election, mostly because it doesn't seem so all consuming or crazy!

[The Blaatschapen]

I'm new to the Netherlands but I am kinda excited about the election, mostly because it doesn't seem so all consuming or crazy!

Well, the campaign hasn't really started yet.

Also, do you speak Dutch? Dutch news coverage on the dutch election is always more intense than what the anglo world reports. Even the local expat news outlets.

[Theaca]

Well, the campaign hasn't really started yet.

Also, do you speak Dutch? Dutch news coverage on the dutch election is always more intense than what the anglo world reports. Even the local expat news outlets.

Slowly learning. I'm at like an 8 year old at the moment. Been reading books like "Daar is Sinterklaas" and "Waar is Willem?"

[VW53Aland]

Didn't read through all the comments so far, but I guess all Americans are like "Whoa! You have more than 2 parties?!?!"
Yeah, well, it comes with pros and cons, though I think generally the pros outweigh the cons.
But sometimes I exaggerate that in a few years time, we will have more parties than there are seats in the Tweede Kamer (comparable to the US House of Representatives)

I will vote for a democratic, socialist party. That could for instance be GL, PvdA, PvdD, or SP. In the end it depends on their stances on individual themes. The SP will probably again be too extreme and rebellious. And often I do like the stances of the PvdD, but I don't think they will (ever) become large enough to have some serious influence. I'll probably end up voting for GL or PvdA. We'll see when their campaigns start.

So, NSG, what's your pick? What coalition do you think will lead?

For me, considering this is a country where you truly can vote your conscience, my preference is for GroenLinks. As for my coalition pick, I think given the poll numbers, it will be VVD-CDA-D66-PvdA-CU. The current coalition is six shy of a majority, and after the failed GroenLinks negotiations last time around, Rutte needs to throw the left a bone, so I think he'll go safe with the PvdA.

I fear am convinced that the VVD will again be the largest party, as Prime Minister Mark Rutte has the benefit of managing the pandemic quite well. The FvD will loose many voters due to the latest quarrels. Unfortunately the PVV will gain from this. But neither of them will become part of the coalition I believe. Also, you state you expect the PvdA to step in as a coalition partner. But they did so 8 years ago and were heavily punished for that in the next elections, so I think they will think twice before doing that again. I think we will see a coalition that is quite similar to the one we have now (VVD-CDA-D66-CU if I'm not mistaken). But what I would love to see somewhere in the near future is a leftist coalition like (PvdA-GL-SP, with some support of PvdD, D66, 50+, or CU as needed). But I don't see that happening any time soon unfortunately.

[Theaca]

Didn't read through all the comments so far, but I guess all Americans are like "Whoa! You have more than 2 parties?!?!"
Yeah, well, it comes with pros and cons, though I think generally the pros outweigh the cons.
But sometimes I exaggerate that in a few years time, we will have more parties than there are seats in the Tweede Kamer (comparable to the US House of Representatives)

I will vote for a democratic, socialist party. That could for instance be GL, PvdA, PvdD, or SP. In the end it depends on their stances on individual themes. The SP will probably again be too extreme and rebellious. And often I do like the stances of the PvdD, but I don't think they will (ever) become large enough to have some serious influence. I'll probably end up voting for GL or PvdA. We'll see when their campaigns start.

I think groenlinks is nice!

Ik denk dat Groenlinks leuk is!

[Herrebrugh]

Didn't read through all the comments so far, but I guess all Americans are like "Whoa! You have more than 2 parties?!?!"
Yeah, well, it comes with pros and cons, though I think generally the pros outweigh the cons.
But sometimes I exaggerate that in a few years time, we will have more parties than there are seats in the Tweede Kamer (comparable to the US House of Representatives)

I will vote for a democratic, socialist party. That could for instance be GL, PvdA, PvdD, or SP. In the end it depends on their stances on individual themes. The SP will probably again be too extreme and rebellious. And often I do like the stances of the PvdD, but I don't think they will (ever) become large enough to have some serious influence. I'll probably end up voting for GL or PvdA. We'll see when their campaigns start.

I think groenlinks is nice!

Ik denk dat Groenlinks leuk is!

"Leuk" betekent eerder "fun" dan "nice" zoals jij het gebruikt, hoewel je het ook kunt gebruiken in "Dat is een leuk jurkje" ("That is a nice dress"). Jij bedoelt eerder "goed".

"Leuk" means "fun" more than "nice" as you are using it, though you can also use it in "Dat is een leuk jurkje" ("That is a nice dress"). Closer to your intended meaning is "goed".

[Theaca]

I think groenlinks is nice!

Ik denk dat Groenlinks leuk is!

"Leuk" betekent eerder "fun" dan "nice" zoals jij het gebruikt, hoewel je het ook kunt gebruiken in "Dat is een leuk jurkje" ("That is a nice dress"). Jij bedoelt eerder "goed".

"Leuk" means "fun" more than "nice" as you are using it, though you can also use it in "Dat is een leuk jurkje" ("That is a nice dress"). Closer to your intended meaning is "goed".

Thank you very much! My dutch is still pretty crappy XD

Dank u wel! Mijn nederlanse is nog steeds slecht.

Thankfully my boyfriend is helping me a ton and I am learning a lot! He is more of a JA21 fan but we have playful rivalry with it XD
(my vocab is a little too limited to translate this)

[Brilinako]

There's even more fun! There are a boatload of new parties including FOUR which split off during the parliamentary term. These are:

Groep Otten, split from "Party for the Future" (split from FvD), conservative liberal, soft eurosceptic, one MEP and two Senators (Henk Otten and somebody else)
Lijst Henk Krol, split from "Party for the Future" (split from 50+), pensioner interests and progressive conservative, one MP (Henk Krol)
Splinter, split from "Party for the Future" (split from PvdD), centre-left and progressive, one MP (Femke Merel van Kooten-Arissen), yes that is its actual name
Right Answer 21 (note: 'juiste' in Dutch does not refer to 'right' as in the direction), split from FvD, basically FvD without Neo-Nazi youth party members and with toned-down tinfoil hattery,, seven Senators (Groep Van Pareren)

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

---

Prime Minister Mark Rutte has the benefit of managing the pandemic quite well.

Rutte managing the pandemic well?
While the virus was already rising in the Netherlands, ten days since the first infection, Rutte announced people shouldn't shake hands instead of taking vigorous measures. He and the Outbreak Management Team led by the remorseless Jaap van Dissel who sees people as mere figures spread lies about herd immunity which does not exist without mass vaccination. Our policy is literally called "gecontroleerd uitrazen" (letting it rage out "in check"). Our Healthcare Minister, Hugo de Jonge, arrogantly did not expect an obvious second wave with a complete near-lack of measures in the summer. We abolished social distancing for minors and kept the schools open until December four days before Christmas break, causing over 900 schools with infected students since the summer break ended and kids giving covid to their parents and grandparents. Thousandsof our citizens have died. Our government has managed the pandemic as "well" as the United States and Sweden. With vaccination, the Dutch government is the black sheep of Europe, starting way later than all other EU nations while countries like Israel expect to vaccinate a quarter of their entire population in a month. Thanks to Rutte's ten years of neoliberal self-destruction, hospitals have suffered from budget cut after budget cut, especially horrific in the pandemic. And Rutte's "managing the pandemic well"?!
(warning for people who don't speak Dutch: most links are in Dutch)

[Hurdergaryp]

It should be noted that new parties tend to pop up regularly in the Dutch political jungle, but many of them do not exist for very long.

[VW53Aland]

Prime Minister Mark Rutte has the benefit of managing the pandemic quite well.

Rutte managing the pandemic well?

First off, reading that sentence from my reply back, made me notice that I did not word it well. "quite well" could be read as extremely well, but that is actually almost the opposite of what I meant. I meant to say something like barely well enough, but still well enough.
But, to comment on your reply, yes, that is still well enough. Note that I am absolutely not a fan of the VVVD. Far from it. But yes, I believe we have handled the pandemic reasonably well. Note that we (just like every other government) didn't have all the information at our disposal right away. Like Rutte said, they had to make 100% of the decisions when only 10% of the knowledge to base that decision on was available. There are multiple ways to go to Rome (Dutch saying) and they had to pick on of them. Of course they could have chosen a different way. But they chose a path and tried to stick to it. (...more or less) And I believe that many Dutch voters will reward them for that. I won't, but I believe many will. We'll have to wait and see how it goes in March.

However, I heavily disagree with your statement that we have managed the pandemic just as well/bad as the United States.
The US has over 330,000 deaths with a population of almost 330,000,000 people. So more than one in every thousand Americans has died, or currently actually 1020 per million. The Netherlands currently has 11,135 deaths with around 17,330,000 people, so a little over 640 per million, over 37% less than the US. In Western Europe, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden, France, United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, and Belgium all have more deaths per capita than the Netherlands, while only Portugal, Austria, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Norway have less. So, regarding COVID deaths, we're somewhere in the middle of our neighbours.

While the number of deaths may be a due differences in medical situations, you'll see the same differences in COVID cases too. The US has over 19,300,000 cases, so almost 59 per 1,000 Americans. The Netherlands only has little over 780,000 cases leading to only 45 per 1,000 people. Apart from that, The Netherlands is set to have one of the best economic recoveries from COVID.

So all in all, I think we did pretty well. It may be we could have done better in certain aspects. But doing better in certain aspects may have hurt other aspects. But we're digressing. We'll see in March whether or not the VVD will profit from the cabinet's handling of the pandemic.

[Anatoliyanskiy]

There's even more fun! There are a boatload of new parties including FOUR which split off during the parliamentary term. These are:

Groep Otten, split from "Party for the Future" (split from FvD), conservative liberal, soft eurosceptic, one MEP and two Senators (Henk Otten and somebody else)
Lijst Henk Krol, split from "Party for the Future" (split from 50+), pensioner interests and progressive conservative, one MP (Henk Krol)
Splinter, split from "Party for the Future" (split from PvdD), centre-left and progressive, one MP (Femke Merel van Kooten-Arissen), yes that is its actual name
Right Answer 21 (note: 'juiste' in Dutch does not refer to 'right' as in the direction), split from FvD, basically FvD without Neo-Nazi youth party members and with toned-down tinfoil hattery,, seven Senators (Groep Van Pareren)

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

I can't seem to find Splinter anywhere. Its not in polls, no wikipedia page, no website and when you look up "Femke Merel van Kooten-Arrisen" it says she's still an independent. So could you link an article that talks about that party? Oh, and most people call it Ja21, which basically doomed FvD seeing as it is basically the same party but without (as you stated) the Neo-nazism and conspiracy theories and anti-lockdown dribble. Henk Krol List is definitely not winning a seat, same with Group Otten. And Code Orange out of the 3 minor parties you stated has the highest chance of winning a seat, as in some polls its shown with 1 seat.

[The Alma Mater]

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

[Nova Bromelia]

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

Plus, they are the only party beside Volt who also exist, as the same party, in several other European countries. Wouldn't mind it at all if they were to get a seat! Especially since, in the few spots in local politics where they did manage to win seats, they have actually been pretty constructive and productive, over the past few years. Would have loved to see more of them at popular protest gatherings about refugee- and environmental issues, though... now my impression of them is that they are not especially concerned about those.

[Juristonia]

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

Ancilla van de Leest was a pretty decent party leader, to be honest.

[Baltenstein]

There are also the left-wing populist BIJ1 (1 = 'een', bijeen = 'together'), centre-right Code Oranje (referring to weather alerts) and the Pirate Party which have a very slight chance of just breaking 0,66%.

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

Interesting how the various Pirate Parties throughout Western Europe managed to destroy themselves not over the lack of relevance of their agenda but because of bad HR choices. In Germany, the Pirate Party - whose name and clownish self-promotion also hurt them from the beginning - managed to make headlines with, in short order, an ousted pedophile, a lunatic who killed his lover and himself, and a guy who in his mid-30ies had never worked in his life as matter of principle. They performed well in the time period 2010-2013 or so but afterwards it was an non-stop downwards spiral.

[The Alma Mater]

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

Ancilla van de Leest was a pretty decent party leader, to be honest.

Was she ? She caused a fallout in the party and was herself not really knowledgeable about IT matters. While certainly intelligent, nice to look at and quite able to debate she was not the ideal posterchild for a party whose main focus point is cybersecurity and privacy.

[Anatoliyanskiy]

Ancilla van de Leest was a pretty decent party leader, to be honest.

Was she ? She caused a fallout in the party and was herself not really knowledgeable about IT matters. While certainly intelligent, nice to look at and quite able to debate she was not the ideal posterchild for a party whose main focus point is cybersecurity and privacy.

Yeah, she was in short, a libertarian. Might as well have run with the Libertarian Party for all I care. She basically killed the PP.

[Hurdergaryp]

Was she ? She caused a fallout in the party and was herself not really knowledgeable about IT matters. While certainly intelligent, nice to look at and quite able to debate she was not the ideal posterchild for a party whose main focus point is cybersecurity and privacy.

Yeah, she was in short, a libertarian. Might as well have run with the Libertarian Party for all I care. She basically killed the PP.

Looks more like the Pirates killed themselves, which makes sense given how the worst enemy of pirates are not those stealthy ninjas, but other pirates.

[The Blaatschapen]

Yeah, she was in short, a libertarian. Might as well have run with the Libertarian Party for all I care. She basically killed the PP.

Looks more like the Pirates killed themselves, which makes sense given how the worst enemy of pirates are not those stealthy ninjas, but other pirates.

That makes sense.

Pirates suffer from a high arrrrr-value.

[Theaca]

I still think it is a shame the pirate party had to present itself in such a nonserious matter; with the whole pirate name and the latex fetishmodel as lijsttrekker - resulting in them not getting a seat despite being the only party with a decent understanding of the risks of the digital world and the importance of privacy.

Wow... NGL she seems like a badass!

[The Alma Mater]

Looks more like the Pirates killed themselves, which makes sense given how the worst enemy of pirates are not those stealthy ninjas, but other pirates.

That makes sense.

Pirates suffer from a high arrrrr-value.

And, as said, they made the horrible mistake of no representation in the Carribean.

Still. Now that many Americans believe their elections where hacked through a smart chinese thermostat I wonder if people all over the world will take digital security more seriously