PR for Beginners(A Dutch Election Thread)

[Nova Bromelia]

Yes and the thing is that Europe doesn't need more immigrants

Well, yeah, that does reflect the opinion of D66, and that is why am leaving that party, because this mindset is cynical and evil. It's like seeing somebody drown and shout help, and instead of doing something, you shout back "First tell me, what would I get out of saving you? What profit would that bring me?"

(let us be honest they are mostly immigrants not refugees)

Dishonest statements starting with the words "let us be honest" are horrible. Don't do that. You have no idea what percentage of people in the camps in Greece in Italy are "actual" refugees, or how this is determined. When I hear somebody say "let's be honest, they are not refugees", I hear "Let's be dishonest about disliking icky brown people getting their subhuman feet al over our pristine Boreal soil". And, surprise, that royally annoys me about Sigrid Kaag.

We took so many already, we don't need any more.

What I know is that several asylum seeker centers in NL are currently empty, as much as 25% of the budget of the COA is spent on maintaining those empty location. The capacity to take in asylum seekers was basically set during the Balkan Crisis, way back when, and we are not at that level by a long shot. So, "We took so many already" is evidently a false statement. by any objective metric.

And again: what we "need" does not play into it, just like, when you see somebody drown, you do not "need" that person to survive, to keep leading a happy life yourself. So, you would let that person die, I assume. And that is why you are going to vote "We Laten Iedereen Vrij, Maar We Laten Niemand Vallen (behalve.....)", and I will not.

[Pan Evropa]

Well, yeah, that does reflect the opinion of D66, and that is why am leaving that party, because this mindset is cynical and evil. It's like seeing somebody drown and shout help, and instead of doing something, you shout back "First tell me, what would I get out of saving you? What profit would that bring me?"

The EU doesn't have any obligation to non-Europeans.

Dishonest statements starting with the words "let us be honest" are horrible. Don't do that. You have no idea what percentage of people in the camps in Greece in Italy are "actual" refugees, or how this is determined. When I hear somebody say "let's be honest, they are not refugees", I hear "Let's be dishonest about disliking icky brown people getting their subhuman feet al over our pristine Boreal soil". And, surprise, that royally annoys me about Sigrid Kaag.

Yeah and with this you just revealed you're not interested in any actual real discussion about this, you'd rather just scream "racist" and pretend you can take the moral high ground.

What I know is that several asylum seeker centers in NL are currently empty

There are 40,000 homeless people in the Netherlands.

[Nova Bromelia]

Yup. By all means, and let's just use homeless people here as an excuse to let other people rot, and, by the way, let's also do nothing about those homeless people. Oh, and let's also keep ignoring both the enire Declaration of Human Rights AND the convention of Child Rights, because, why not, after all, we áre the "civilized world", and excempt from any kind of scrutiny or consequence, right.

But, all that, and al my sarcasm aside, I think that our conversation did nicely address Schaap's comment "Volt votes can just as well go to D66", because, as we have shown: no, they cannot, there are fundamental differences between the two parties.

[The Blaatschapen]

Yup. By all means, and let's just use homeless people here as an excuse to let other people rot, and, by the way, let's also do nothing about those homeless people. Oh, and let's also keep ignoring both the enire Declaration of Human Rights AND the convention of Child Rights, because, why not, after all, we áre the "civilized world", and excempt from any kind of scrutiny or consequence, right.

But, all that, and al my sarcasm aside, I think that our conversation did nicely address Schaap's comment "Volt votes can just as well go to D66", because, as we have shown: no, they cannot, there are fundamental differences between the two parties.

If you're going to shorten my name, please use 'Blaat'

[Nova Bromelia]

Duly noted

[The Blaatschapen]

Duly noted

Thank you

----

So I also considered Volt at the last EP elections. But decided not to vote them, since on their website only the #1 and perhaps #2 had a description. And since they were not from my region, but from Randstad I decided not to vote for them.

I tend to vote for a person from Brabant (or Limburg) when possible, but I do need to know the bare minimum of details. So first I decide on a party, then on a person. Also, never the #1, no matter how capable Klaver is

[Nova Bromelia]

Duly noted

Thank you

----

So I also considered Volt at the last EP elections. But decided not to vote them, since on their website only the #1 and perhaps #2 had a description. And since they were not from my region, but from Randstad I decided not to vote for them.

I tend to vote for a person from Brabant (or Limburg) when possible, but I do need to know the bare minimum of details. So first I decide on a party, then on a person. Also, never the #1, no matter how capable Klaver is

I do trust Jesse Klaver in that. BUT! If, during the formation discussions for Rutte IV the next cabinet Green Left chickens out of taking government responsibility again, I will personally go to the supermarket where I know Jesse does his groceries, I will lie in wait until I see him, and then I will hand him a note saying "this is my corona-friendly way of screaming in your face".
Or well, ok, I probably won't. But I swear that I will fantasize about it, so there!

For D66, Sjoerd Sjoerdsma could be a good choice. Of course, he is a spokesman on the exact same topics about which I find D66 to be inconsistent and hypocritical, but, still, his thoughts and words seem to come from a good place, and he is very passionate and capable.

As for Volt... I don't think there are any people on the list who currently live below the rivers. But Laurens Dassen was born- and grew up in Eindhoven, and if Jesse Klaver counts then so should he, hah!

[The Blaatschapen]

Thank you

----

So I also considered Volt at the last EP elections. But decided not to vote them, since on their website only the #1 and perhaps #2 had a description. And since they were not from my region, but from Randstad I decided not to vote for them.

I tend to vote for a person from Brabant (or Limburg) when possible, but I do need to know the bare minimum of details. So first I decide on a party, then on a person. Also, never the #1, no matter how capable Klaver is

I do trust Jesse Klaver in that. BUT! If, during the formation discussions for Rutte IV the next cabinet Green Left chickens out of taking government responsibility, I swear I will personally go to the supermarket where I know Jesse does his groceries, I will lie in wait until I see him, and then I will hand him a note saying "this is my corona-friendly way of screaming in your face".
Or well, ok, I probably won't. But I swear that I will fantasize about it, so there!

For D66, Sjoerd Sjoerdsma could be a good choice. Of course, he is a spokesman on the exact same topics about which I find D66 to be inconsistent and hypocritical, but, still, his thoughts and words seem to come from a good place, and he is very passionate and capable.

As for Volt... I don't think there are any people on the list who currently live below the rivers. But Laurens Dassen was born- and grew up in Eindhoven, and if Jesse Klaver counts then so should he, hah!

Well, that's the thing, if the bios only don't say it, I don't know it Last time around, quick checks, oh, all bios were empty except for top two or so.

*pass*

But yeah, they don't have to currently live there, I've even voted West once (Boris van der Ham), but he has a connection to Maastricht, and I personally met him at some point. Good chap.

[Herrebrugh]

I'm unlikely to be voting. I used to vote Socialist Party because I was under the impression that they were socialists. Last time I voted GroenLinks because they won my personal lottery.

I still somewhat enjoy the political drama, though. Except for fascist types like Baudet. I make a point of it to see and hear as little of him as possible.

The only concrete thing I'd want from a future government is student loans to be abolished again, in favour of the old system where students would get a monthly allowance to pay for their education according to their (parents') income. And with restitution for us poor sods who had to go into debt. I don't trust promises to that effect made by the PvdA (who themselves helped get rid of the old system) and others, though.

[Nova Bromelia]

But yeah, they don't have to currently live there, I've even voted West once (Boris van der Ham), but he has a connection to Maastricht, and I personally met him at some point. Good chap.

Honestly, I am not one to gush over anyone, especially not politicians. But if Boris vd Ham were to return to politics some day, I won't even care which party he runs with, he will 100% get my vote

@Herrebrugh Please do vote though, even if only to make the odds of anóther four exhausting years of uninspired status-quo just a little smaller. And hey, SP may not be entirely socialist, but they are defitely móre socialist than any other party out there. Wáááy too socialist for me, anyway. Which you may take as either admonishment or encouragement, you decide. But, from friends within the environmental movement who are also active in the SP, I gather that there is a young and very active wing who are making quite a show of wanting to see more communism in the SP. Lots of internal drama, there, currently, from what I understand! I could imagine that if your ideals somewhat align with that end of the spectrum, this would be a perfect time to not only vote SP, but even become a member, and join the fray!

Erm, except, of course, that you definitely should not, and instead, vote purple

[The Blaatschapen]

Yeah, not voting at all makes me wonder.

Especially in Netherlands, were there is only a small amount of vote loss (votes that do not see themselves represented in parliament).

It's not like marriage. It's like public transport. I'll take the bus that will bring me closer to where I want to be. But it doesn't bring me exactly to my destination.

[Herrebrugh]

@Herrebrugh Please do vote though, even if only to make the odds of anóther four exhausting years of uninspired status-quo just a little smaller. And hey, SP may not be entirely socialist, but they are defitely móre socialist than any other party out there. Wáááy to socialist for me, anyway. Which you may take as either admonishment or encouragement, you decide. But, from friend who are active in the SP, I gather that there is a young and very active wing who are making quite a show of wanting to see more communism in the SP. Lots of internal drama, there, currently, from what I understand! I could imagine that if your ideals somewhat align with that end of the spectrum, this would be a perfect time to not only vote SP, but even become a member, and join the fray!

Erm, except, of course, that you definitely should not, and instead, vote purple

Well, I wouldn't agree that socialism is a scale, it is instead an absolute position (in my view synonimous with communism).

My views don't really aline with any party, nor do I believe they can be brought about by a parliament, hence why I don't feel the need to vote, let alone become a party member.

Though, I do hate fascists quite a bit more than I dislike the rest.

[Herrebrugh]

It's not like marriage. It's like public transport. I'll take the bus that will bring me closer to where I want to be. But it doesn't bring me exactly to my destination.

In my view, they don't bring me closer to where I want to be at all, as where I want to be is the complete abolishment of the status-quo. They're rather driving around in circles, or skirting a ravine if you take the coming climate crisis into account.

[The Alma Mater]

It's not like marriage. It's like public transport. I'll take the bus that will bring me closer to where I want to be. But it doesn't bring me exactly to my destination.

In my view, they don't bring me closer to where I want to be at all, as where I want to be is the complete abolishment of the status-quo. They're rather driving around in circles, or skirting a ravine if you take the coming climate crisis into account.

Starting your own party is ofc always a possibility.

[Herrebrugh]

In my view, they don't bring me closer to where I want to be at all, as where I want to be is the complete abolishment of the status-quo. They're rather driving around in circles, or skirting a ravine if you take the coming climate crisis into account.

Starting your own party is ofc always a possibility.

Not a realistic possibility for me, nor do I believe it will be able to make any reasonable difference: the problem we are facing is quite a bit larger than can be solved by Dutch party politics. And even if it were solvable there, it'd fail because of the need to compromise, where the catastrophe we're facing is too big to allow for piecemeal solutions.

Hence why I believe only the international working class, realising it is one class united by a common necessity (the abolishment of a system that exploits and is set to plunge humanity into possibly insurmountable disaster, a system ruled only by the maximalisation of profits without regard for the consequences), can end capitalism and save us all. Otherwise, I have zero hope.

[Nova Bromelia]

Well, I wouldn't agree that socialism is a scale, it is instead an absolute position (in my view synonimous with communism).

I can see the logic of that thought. For your own positive energy though, keep in mind that even if it is an absolute position, you cannot "teleport" there, you will need to travel. And something with thesis-antithesis-synthesis

My views don't really aline with any party, nor do I believe they can be brought about by a parliament, hence why I don't feel the need to vote, let alone become a party member.

There are no perfect parties, the best way to participate in a democracy is trying to nudge political parties towards your prefered view. To give an example, currently I am active within the environmental movement, in a political group with (among others) members of several political parties. Which enables us to insert our common vision into our respective parties in a modest way (and, of course, to keep our parties informed about the activities of our movement)

Which is to say, if you don't feel comfortable to join a party, it might be worthwhile to consider joining a political movement that is not a party. If you'd like to make me contort my face in awkward and uncomfortable ways, you could even consider the International Socialists (there's some great people there. If only their views weren't so radical... then again, if your views are, too, then I imagine you could do much worse than those weirdo's

Though, I do hate fascists quite a bit more than I dislike the rest.

Good mentality, I heartily approve

[Hurdergaryp]

I have no idea about any of those parties. Except Wilders and the Pomade Mafia.

What were their stances on Corona?

LPF thinks it is all nonsense, PVV tends to agree.
All other parties are in favour of measures; though quite a few object to the way laws and fines were implemented, how Ruttes pressconferences cause more confusion than clarity and how the cabinet seems to lack long-term vision.

LPF? The LPF has been dead for years. Perhaps you meant the FvD, whose leader has pretty much gone into the realm of (publicly denied) antisemitism and QAnon-level conspiracy theory insanity.

[Pan Evropa]

Yup. By all means, and let's just use homeless people here as an excuse to let other people rot, and, by the way, let's also do nothing about those homeless people.

Lets use the empty refugee accommodation for vulnerable Europeans instead of importing foreigners to add onto our problems. The EU exists for EUROPEAN people, not for foreigners.

Oh, and let's also keep ignoring both the enire Declaration of Human Rights AND the convention of Child Rights, because, why not, after all, we áre the "civilized world", and excempt from any kind of scrutiny or consequence, right.

Yes, lets do so. If the Declaration on Human Rights and Convention on the Rights of the Child mean that foreigners are prioritised before European people then I am happy to tear them up.

[Nova Bromelia]

Yes, lets do so. If the Declaration on Human Rights and Convention on the Rights of the Child mean that foreigners are prioritised before European people then I am happy to tear them up.

Hunh, for a while you said stuff that still fit within the D66 party line, even while ticking one alt-right box after another. But you really seem to have left that line here. Seriously, dude, you may want to consider removing "fascism" from the red part of that sig of yours. Not calling you a fascist (yet), but even if you might, still, I do not for one second believe that you are "anti". Think about it. Or not.

[The Alma Mater]

LPF thinks it is all nonsense, PVV tends to agree.
All other parties are in favour of measures; though quite a few object to the way laws and fines were implemented, how Ruttes pressconferences cause more confusion than clarity and how the cabinet seems to lack long-term vision.

LPF? The LPF has been dead for years. Perhaps you meant the FvD, whose leader has pretty much gone into the realm of (publicly denied) antisemitism and QAnon-level conspiracy theory insanity.

I did indeed and have no idea why I conflated the two.

[Juristonia]

LPF? The LPF has been dead for years. Perhaps you meant the FvD, whose leader has pretty much gone into the realm of (publicly denied) antisemitism and QAnon-level conspiracy theory insanity.

I did indeed and have no idea why I conflated the two.

Both right wing, incredibly full of themselves and have no hope of ever being successful in government without breaking apart through infighting.
There's not a whole lotta difference between them, tbh.

[Hurdergaryp]

I did indeed and have no idea why I conflated the two.

Both right wing, incredibly full of themselves and have no hope of ever being successful in government without breaking apart through infighting.
There's not a whole lotta difference between them, tbh.

FvD is significantly more extremist, though. The FvD youth movement is utterly deranged, morally speaking.

[CoraSpia]

What's the best party for getting Rutte out? I'm thinking as a non-dutch person whose only concern in the dutch election (now the Brexit deal is done) is stopping the mistreatment of hungary and Poland.

[Nova Bromelia]

What's the best party for getting Rutte out? I'm thinking as a non-dutch person whose only concern in the dutch election (now the Brexit deal is done) is stopping the mistreatment of hungary and Poland.

No chance of that. Centre Right Wing parties will condemn Orbán and Duda for effect, Left Wing parties will condemn them out of principle, and voting on a Far Right party will guarantee Rutte to remain prime minister.

Best way to get NL to stop being smelly meanypants to Hungary and Poland is for the governments of those countries to start respecting human rights and basic civil liberty. So, if you want to really make a statement, get those two governments to do just that, THAT'll teach us

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

What's the best party for getting Rutte out? I'm thinking as a non-dutch person whose only concern in the dutch election (now the Brexit deal is done) is stopping the mistreatment of hungary and Poland.

Honestly it's hard to imagine a realistic electoral result that doesn't end up with VVD in government. They're doing really well in the polls.

But if your sole objective is to not have a VVD Prime Minister, one viable strategy might be to throw votes at Wilders and hope for a hard-right coalition led by the PVV. But that's, like, super unlikely.