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Honor Among Thieves and the Rule of Law

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What is Right v. What is Lawful

The law should always be followed no matter what, morality be damned.
2
9%
The law should only be followed so long as it is just, immoral laws should always be defied.
17
77%
The law should never be followed no matter what, state be damned.
0
No votes
OP is hella cringe.
3
14%
 
Total votes : 22

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Honor Among Thieves and the Rule of Law

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:53 pm

In a perfect world the law is a paragon of virtue and upholds all things good, true, and just. Alas, we do not live in a perfect world.

No, in our world the law can be and often is on the wrong side of the moral compass. This is true in every nation and every society. Injustice is often protected by written law and enforced by those tasked with upholding the law. And yet it is not uncommon for society to be quick to misjudge a person based on their track record with the law by suggesting that they must be an immoral person if they cannot follow the law. Criminals, as we are often taught, are bad people by the sheer fact of being criminals. And yet there are often cases where this is so fundamentally untrue that it is outright incorrect--possibly even immoral--to suggest that it is. The idea that the law must always be followed even when it is morally bankrupt is, in my view, utter insanity and completely absurd. I used to be of the kind to assume that criminality and immorality go and hand-in-hand and that being law-abiding likewise meant being morally sound. These days, though, I would call that a "hella cringe take" and laugh at the very notion.

Morality and law can and often do conflict and that being a criminal does not necessarily make one immoral, nor does being law-abiding necessarily make one moral. It stands to reason that the law exists to make things fair and safe for as many people as possible, but because life is full of hardship and suffering that it is fundamentally impossible for the law to protect everyone while ensuring that everyone receives their just due. Sometimes the law can and will actively protect villainous or monstrous people by design, incompetence, or even just technicality. Sometimes doing what is truly, morally right requires breaking the law or even outright defying it's very existence. Sometimes an immoral Man can stay within the boundaries of the law and be protected by it and sometimes a moral Man can stand outside the boundaries of the law and yet still be a person generally described as being morally upright in their behavior. The law and morality can conflict with one another and compliment one another, but never can they be one or the other. The law should, of course, be followed to the letter up until it begins to trend into immoral territory - then, I believe, it is perfectly justifiable and indeed totally righteous to actively subvert said immoral laws.

Or so I believe, anyway. What say ye, NSG? Is the law worth following even when it's so blatantly in the moral wrong? Does the right thing to do stop being the right thing when it conflicts with the law of the land? Is OP hella cringe?
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:19 pm

The law should be followed as long as its just.
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Postauthoritarian America
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Postby Postauthoritarian America » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:47 pm

Not all legal actions are ethical; not all ethical actions are legal.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:07 pm

Follow the laws you agree with, disobey the ones you disagree with.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:11 pm

Legal is not the same as moral. Morality comes before legality.

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Federal Asia
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Postby Federal Asia » Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:46 am

I'll follow the law as long as the cops are the only guys with the guns
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The Giant Space Wyrm
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Postby The Giant Space Wyrm » Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:50 am

I do as I want as long as I can get away with it.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:08 am

If law is only followed when adherents agree with it, its more like a guideline than an actual rule. Follow the law but have a good lawyer ready to twist it.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:13 am

My belief is that morality is far more important than the law, so much so in fact that really the only moral compass one needs to live by is "don't bring unnecessary harm onto others, and always help out those in need." Any other laws are meaningless, null and void.

So basically, the people smoking pot before it was legalized did nothing wrong.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:14 am

Federal Asia wrote:I'll follow the law as long as the cops are the only guys with the guns


Good news, in America we all have guns.
Leftist, commie and Antifa Guy. Democratic Confederalist, Anti-racist

"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Federal Asia
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Postby Federal Asia » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:25 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Federal Asia wrote:I'll follow the law as long as the cops are the only guys with the guns


Good news, in America we all have guns.


Yeah but the cops still have the biggest ones
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:03 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:My belief is that morality is far more important than the law, so much so in fact that really the only moral compass one needs to live by is "don't bring unnecessary harm onto others, and always help out those in need." Any other laws are meaningless, null and void.

So basically, the people smoking pot before it was legalized did nothing wrong.


Destroying your own health and giving yourself brain damage isn't wrong? :roll:

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Glorious Hong Kong
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Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:05 am

I could share that post I got warned for a few months back expressing just how I feel about unjust laws and governments, but I don't think I will. My conscience is above the law and I believe that certain, tyrannical governments don't deserve to exist and should be overthrown in internal revolutions.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:48 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Federal Asia wrote:I'll follow the law as long as the cops are the only guys with the guns


Good news, in America we all have guns.


*faint sound of distant "yeehawing" coming from the general direction of Texas*
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
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Plzen
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Postby Plzen » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:01 am

Neither. Of the two options presented I lean towards disregarding laws that are not moral, but that is not quite my stance.

Laws should be disregarded if they are not legitimate. Asides from extreme violations of basic human rights, which should be always resisted, immoral laws should still be obeyed as long as it has been enacted in a legitimate manner (i.e. by democratic representation of the popular will).

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:39 am

Plzen wrote:Neither. Of the two options presented I lean towards disregarding laws that are not moral, but that is not quite my stance.

Laws should be disregarded if they are not legitimate. Asides from extreme violations of basic human rights, which should be always resisted, immoral laws should still be obeyed as long as it has been enacted in a legitimate manner (i.e. by democratic representation of the popular will).

And why is that? The subjective ness of morality? Or just that you find that the law is worth following because it’s the law?
Last edited by Adamede on Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Plzen
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Postby Plzen » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:27 pm

Adamede wrote:And why is that? The subjective ness of morality? Or just that you find that the law is worth following because it’s the law?

The subjectiveness, yes. Organised society cannot exist if every man behaves as he believes right. The process by which laws are written is far more important than the content of laws thus written.
Last edited by Plzen on Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:43 pm

Plzen wrote:
Adamede wrote:And why is that? The subjective ness of morality? Or just that you find that the law is worth following because it’s the law?

The subjectiveness, yes. Organised society cannot exist if every man behaves as he believes right. The process by which laws are written is far more important than the content of laws thus written.

Eh, to a point. Jim Crow was passed through what wouldn’t be wrong to call a democratic process, espeially in the Southern states that didn’t have that large of a black population.


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