The American Empire

[Stellar Colonies]

Finally, now we can stop talking about the US in PRC threads and the PRC in American domestic/foreign issue threads.

Separation of America and China? Haha.

Chimerica

Additional “similar to the word chimera” points

[Organized States]

Mate, I'm from Guam. Leave me out of this.

I'm not oppressed. A little pissed off about my land rights, yes, but I'm not oppressed.

[The Romanian Confederacy]

Do you know what world superpowers have existed throughout human history, which haven't had a record of horrible atrocities and opportunistic exploitation?

NOT ONE EVER.

And there won't ever be a 'perfect' superpower, because opportunistic exploitation happens to be advantageous. Nations that don't do it will not ever be superpowers. It's a cold and cruel universe, but that's how reality works.

Now that the myth of perfection is dispelled, we can begin sorting, categorizing, and stratifying superpowers by the magnitude of their reprehensibility. America has done some awful stuff, I won't argue that one bit - but China is worse. The Soviet Union was worse, and the Russian Federation is still worse. The British Empire was worse too. Rome was worse. The Assyrians, Mongolians, and Macedonians were fucking nuts at their respective peaks of world dominance. Even tribal superpowers on a smaller regional scale (like the Aztecs) were just godawful.

Power corrupts, and so far, no one has invented a way to get vast amounts of power that isn't dark and fucked up.

Finally somebody with a brain!

Dear god, please make these threads stop.

Try telling that to Cordel, Sanghyeok( I don't care if I spelled your name wrong, I'm sleepy ok?) and Ra.

[Rusozak]

Jeez, even our threads get cheap Chinese knockoffs.

[Picairn]

Jeez, even our threads get cheap Chinese knockoffs.

Give it enough threads and our complains here will also become a meme.

[The Sherpa Empire]

Basically, any country that rises to global dominance is going to be a threat. Some might be better or worse, but at the end of the day, anyone who wields too much power has the potential to misuse it. Even if they mean well, they can do a lot of damage just by making a mistake.

You can do your best to call out the bullshit and stop the worst abuses, but it will never be perfect.

[Plzen]

For the 75% of the world population who are neither Americans nor Chinese, I don’t think that the international order under Chinese hegemony will be substantially different from the current one under American hegemony. People who are “in” now might find themselves “out” and vice versa, but that’s probably about it.

But it’s still funny to see Americans try to convince me that I should keep licking their boots because the evil China boogeyman will eat my dog or whatever.

[Sundiata]

For the 75% of the world population who are neither Americans nor Chinese, I don’t think that the international order under Chinese hegemony will be substantially different from the current one under American hegemony. People who are “in” now might find themselves “out” and vice versa, but that’s probably about it.

But it’s still funny to see Americans try to convince me that I should keep licking their boots because the evil China boogeyman will eat my dog or whatever.

Lick our boots? No, we're just asking for a helping hand. We don't want the world order to tilt in favor of the genocidal autocracy that is the CCP. The United States is making progress with respect to the spread of democracy across the world.

In fact, most governments in the world are democracies because of that influence. Unfortunately, moving forward in line with that progress required consistency. China is ruining that consistency and that puts the world at risk.

We don't want subservience, we want help. We want to help.

[Plzen]

Lick our boots? No, we're just asking for a helping hand.

A ten-year-old would understand that if you spend your time in the schoolyard beating up others, you don’t get to then ask them for “help” when a stronger bully threatens to usurp your position.

But this seems to be a point that is impossible to get into the heads of people who live between Mexico and Canada.

We don't want subservience, we want help. We want to help.

The demonstrated record of US foreign policy says otherwise.

[United Chinese Communes]

For the 75% of the world population who are neither Americans nor Chinese, I don’t think that the international order under Chinese hegemony will be substantially different from the current one under American hegemony. People who are “in” now might find themselves “out” and vice versa, but that’s probably about it.

But it’s still funny to see Americans try to convince me that I should keep licking their boots because the evil China boogeyman will eat my dog or whatever.

Precisely. Americans seem to have an internalised image of themselves as the 'good guys', probably helped along by their media machine. What they don't seem to understand is that many people around the world don't appreciate their meddling in international affairs, and that their arrogance breeds opposition. America is not the hero. America is, right now, the reigning villain, while China is simply an up-and-coming villain eager to replace them. For most people, it's business as usual.

[Sundiata]

Lick our boots? No, we're just asking for a helping hand.

A ten-year-old would understand that if you spend your time in the schoolyard beating up others, you don’t get to then ask them for “help” when a stronger bully threatens to usurp your position.

But this seems to be a point that is impossible to get into the heads of people who live between Mexico and Canada.

We don't want subservience, we want help. We want to help.

The demonstrated record of US foreign policy says otherwise.

Saint Augustine in his book "The City of God" recanted the allegory of pirates and emperor's. The gist of the story is that pirates are condemned for their crimes and emperors are not. He's not saying that pirates are good people, he's saying that the pirates are small criminals. That's compared with a major criminal like the Chinese Communist Party.

The United States holds itself accountable for its past mistakes unlike the Chinese Communist Party who actively embraces them. American foreign policy in the past century has overwhelmingly been about the promotion, stabilization, and groundwork for democracy. We're not a bully, we don't beat up others. The United States uplifts others.

The United States is certainly not a perfect country but it is certainly a more perfect country today than it ever has been. The same goes for the world that we inhabit. American ideas are winning but it's a lead that we have a moral responsibility to maintain.

[Nakena]

@Answering here since it seems the more approperiate thread:

I'm unfamiliar.

TLDR, the CIA, MI6, and Italian Military Intelligence maintained some ties to some actual Nazis and the Mafia in Italy during a long period of political and criminal violence.

The US military had also Waffen-SS soldiers in their ranks.

Fighting communism from the Baltics to Saigon!

Thorne's second tour in Vietnam began in February 1965 with 5th Special Forces Group; he then transferred to Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group (MACV–SOG), a classified US special operations unit focusing on unconventional warfare in Vietnam, as a military advisor.

Thats just one example, but generally after WW2 the US did recruit help from the Reich military veterans and scientists to fight the communist enemy. The French even had thousends of former Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS soldiers fighting in the Foreign Legion in Indochina.

Also without the reich's scientist the US space program would have never been sucessfull, let alone reached the Moon.

If a 4th Reich comes, it might be very well be the USA who becomes it.

[Sundiata]

If a 4th Reich comes, it might be very well be the USA.

Are you exaggerating or do you sincerely believe that?

[Plzen]

The United States holds itself accountable for its past mistakes unlike the Chinese Communist Party who actively embraces them. American foreign policy in the past century has overwhelmingly been about the promotion, stabilization, and groundwork for democracy. We're not a bully, we don't beat up others. The United States uplifts others.

This is one of those paragraphs that would fit well in a stand-up comedy routine. Yeah, the United States “promotes and stabilises” democracy. ahahahahaha

Tell me another one, boss.

The United States is certainly not a perfect country but it is certainly a more perfect country today than it ever has been. The same goes for the world that we inhabit.

Both of those things are true, but it does not follow from this that the United States must continue to hold the mantle of world hegemonies in order for the world’s upward trajectory to continue.

[Salus Maior]

If a 4th Reich comes, it might be very well be the USA who becomes it.

Considering the country's reaction to Trump, who was no where near a Nazi, I think that kind of sentiment is laughable.

[Plzen]

Considering the country's reaction to Trump, who was no where near a Nazi, I think that kind of sentiment is laughable.

Trump got, what, 70 million votes in the last elections?

Only if one listens to the liberal media could one get the impression that the United States’ reaction to Trump was overly hostile. If Trump shows us anything it’s that the US’ path towards populist nationalism is wide open.

[Salus Maior]

Considering the country's reaction to Trump, who was no where near a Nazi, I think that kind of sentiment is laughable.

Trump got, what, 70 million votes in the last elections?

Only if one listens to the liberal media could one get the impression that the United States’ reaction to Trump was overly hostile. If Trump shows us anything it’s that the US’ path towards populist nationalism is wide open.

Most democracies have that path wide open, yes.

Because Populist appeal is practically a feature when it comes to democracy and electoral politics.

[Nakena]

@Sundiata

Think about all the military structures, industry, triple-digits agencies, coups in South America, dirty CIA business etc. Little of this existed prior to that in US history. This formed a separate american state, a state in state, something I'd call the American Empire. Something that is throughly opposed to the American Republic.

I sincerely believe that after WW2 the US adopted some of the reich's spirit as they needed it in their fight against communism.

Now, doing so, is a bit like using the One Ring. It gives you power to combat your enemies. But everyone who has tried to make use of it, even for "good", has ultimatively been corrupted by it.

And ultimatively, the Ring will always want to return to its master. Because it is the only one whom it truly serves.

[Sundiata]

This is one of those paragraphs that would fit well in a stand-up comedy routine. Yeah, the United States “promotes and stabilises” democracy. ahahahahaha

Tell me another one, boss.

While I recognize that you're trying to make light of situations that are often tense and ugly, it's not lightly that I say that the United States often lives up to its moral responsibility with great sacrifice.

Both of those things are true, but it does not follow from this that the United States must continue to hold the mantle of world hegemonies in order for the world’s upward trajectory to continue.

Correct, but the world is not yet at the stage where it is ready for the United States to relinquish that mantle. American hegemony should not be forever but it should remain so until that time.

[Plzen]

Most democracies have that path wide open, yes.

Because Populist appeal is practically a feature when it comes to democracy and electoral politics.

I’m not talking about the concept of democratic vulnerability to populism in general. I am talking about current events and the plausible political outcome of the next ten years.

In what other high-income democracy has the major right-wing candidate shown such flagrant contempt for established democratic norms than Trump?

Le Pen, Åkesson, what have you? I don’t think any of them pose even close to the threat to their respective democracies as Trump poses for his. Wilders and Johnson comes closer, but even they’re no Trump.

[San Kalungsod Saludong]

I dislike American colonization of my home country, but better the devil you know than the one you don't know.

[Plzen]

While I recognize that you're trying to make light of situations that are often tense and ugly, it's not lightly that I say that the United States often lives up to its moral responsibility with great sacrifice.

I consider the assertion that the United States “promotes and stabilises” democracy abroad to be so blatantly untrue that I find someone saying that completely seriously to be funny in the black comedy sense of funny.

But then I suppose you, as a Catholic, have a need to believe in a benevolent protector to make sense of the world whether one exists or not.

Correct, but the world is not yet at the stage where it is ready for the United States to relinquish that mantle. American hegemony should not be forever but it should remain so until that time.

This implies that if the world is not yet mature, then it requires American hegemony. I will ask you to justify that assumption.

[United Chinese Communes]

This is one of those paragraphs that would fit well in a stand-up comedy routine. Yeah, the United States “promotes and stabilises” democracy. ahahahahaha

Tell me another one, boss.

While I recognize that you're trying to make light of situations that are often tense and ugly, it's not lightly that I say that the United States often lives up to its moral responsibility with great sacrifice.

Only its own propaganda. The United States is no more moral than any other Empire. It is interested only in maintaining its own power, and is entirely willing to resort to utter ruthlessness to do so.

Both of those things are true, but it does not follow from this that the United States must continue to hold the mantle of world hegemonies in order for the world’s upward trajectory to continue.

Correct, but the world is not yet at the stage where it is ready for the United States to relinquish that mantle. American hegemony should not be forever but it should remain so until that time.

This reads to me as a modern spin on the old 'White Man's Burden' that the British used to justify their own imperialism in India and Africa.

[Rusozak]

While I recognize that you're trying to make light of situations that are often tense and ugly, it's not lightly that I say that the United States often lives up to its moral responsibility with great sacrifice.

Only its own propaganda. The United States is no more moral than any other Empire. It is interested only in maintaining its own power, and is entirely willing to resort to utter ruthlessness to do so.

So you're saying China is just as moral as the U.S.

[Nakena]

If a 4th Reich comes, it might be very well be the USA who becomes it.

Considering the country's reaction to Trump, who was no where near a Nazi, I think that kind of sentiment is laughable.

Thats not how it works.

It's less Trump or the Dissident/Alt-Right who are leading to this path but extensive and prolonged foreign interventionism and military engagements in overseas.

The more Wars like Iraq or Vietnam happen, the more it rises, the stronger it grows. It feeds of that, it needs the war, it needs an Abu Ghraib, an Falludsha and such. That it is were it manifests. Let it long enough foster and it comes back home to the streets of Portland. Some of the federal operatives used there were formerly active in the warzones. Sort of a proto-Freikorps if you will so.

The historical appearences of Fascism in Italy and National Socialism in Germany are directly tied to World War One and the downfall of culture, civilization and hell maybe even the spanish flu pandemic. (sounds familiar eh?) It created the conditions, a implosion of reality and order, real and perceived, a rift through which those forces could manifest themself in the real world.

That is the real deal, not some LARPers at Charlottesville.

In fact the dissident right has been VERY much and steadfeastly opposing this path.