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Muslims and Christians, how can we improve relations?

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:40 pm

The two religions are too diametrically opposed for there to ever be total peace between the two. Islam would at minimum, have to abandon Jihad in a military sense and do away with discriminatory rules/laws/attitudes against Christians and Jews within Caliphates. Islam isn't willing to do so, given that their rules are supposed to be unchanging so as to not be perceived as corruptable or to stray too far from what Muhammad established.

Muhammad unfortunately, was a warlord who was bent on trampling over most (if not all) who opposed him or were in his path. This is what the historical record supports. Tons of previously Jewish/Christian lands were conquered for Islam on a permanent basis, so that is a starting point for why Christianity wouldn't condone any further Muslim advances into their remaining territories or will oppose anything that could risk strengthening Islam again if its to the non-Muslim world's detriment.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Mecha Bavarian
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Postby Mecha Bavarian » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:48 pm

Adamede wrote:
Mecha Bavarian wrote:Mosques have no place in Europe. Besides Hagia Sophia is not just a regular church, is one of the most important icons of western culture.

Bullshit.

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:50 pm

Mecha Bavarian wrote:
Adamede wrote:Bullshit.

Eloquent answer. Vous êtes trop sophistiqué pour que je vous comprenne.

Its the only response that comment deserves.

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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:52 pm

Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:53 pm

Cetacea wrote:Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community

I severely doubt that it’s entirely politics.
Last edited by Adamede on Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:54 pm

Esternial wrote:Many people (and this doesn't apply just to religion) just can't bear the thought of anyone believing something different than them. The more devout and radical you are in your beliefs, the more radical your expression of that disagreement becomes.

People should stop caring what other people believe. My mom's a devout Catholic and she has no issue with her husband and sons being decidedly atheist. We don't get up in her grill about her faith and she doesn't get in ours about being faithless.

Live and let live. Don't be a cunt.


This, pretty much verbatim. Live and let live and don’t be a cunt.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:54 pm

Cetacea wrote:Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community



I actually used to have a Muslim friend when I was younger, although sadly I lost contact with him. We didn't talk about religion too much...

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:55 pm

Saint Yosx wrote:
Rijk van Afrika wrote:Like when?

Any land that is now predominantly white and Christian was only that way become of natural demographic collapse.



Open up a book about the natives and Europeans and you will see....


He's not entirely wrong. While yes Europeans did engage in warfare and absolutley brutal behavior against natives in the Americas, at least in North America the native population DID experience a massive collapse from first contact and exposure to things like smallpox.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:57 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

Open up a book about the natives and Europeans and you will see....


He's not entirely wrong. While yes Europeans did engage in warfare and absolutley brutal behavior against natives in the Americas, at least in North America the native population DID experience a massive collapse from first contact and exposure to things like smallpox.


True ,I'm not denying that, but they are painting the Europeans as these saints that did nothing wrong.

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Mecha Bavarian
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Postby Mecha Bavarian » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:58 pm

Cetacea wrote:Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community

“I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”
Quran 8:12

Yeah, no.
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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:58 pm

Rijk van Afrika wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

So lets forget that the Europeans raped women, killed thousands, and did all the things you said?

Like when?

Any land that is now predominantly white and Christian was only that way become of natural demographic collapse.


The use of Smallpox infection as a biological weapon isnt natural demographic collapse - its planned military lead genocide

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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:02 pm

Cetacea wrote:
Rijk van Afrika wrote:Like when?

Any land that is now predominantly white and Christian was only that way become of natural demographic collapse.


The use of Smallpox infection as a biological weapon isnt natural demographic collapse - its planned military lead genocide

The Siege of Fort Pitt is the only verifiable instance in which that occurred and the aim was to lift, well, the siege by infecting the besieging army. Smallpox however was already endemic in many places and that was simply a consequence of contact.
Last edited by The Marlborough on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:02 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

Open up a book about the natives and Europeans and you will see....


He's not entirely wrong. While yes Europeans did engage in warfare and absolutley brutal behavior against natives in the Americas, at least in North America the native population DID experience a massive collapse from first contact and exposure to things like smallpox.

No ones denying that, we’re simply stating that European colonialism wasn’t just them coming in and taking land abandoned after all the natives died off from disease.

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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:03 pm

Mecha Bavarian wrote:
Cetacea wrote:Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community

“I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”
Quran 8:12

Yeah, no.



The Christian bible says the same thing:
I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.
Leviticus 26:25

“Your nakedness will be uncovered,
Your shame also will be exposed;
I will take vengeance and will not spare a man.”

Isaiah 47:3

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The Marlborough
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Postby The Marlborough » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:10 pm

Re OP: I mean it's a pretty monumental task given both past history and recent history, it's going to take a lot of work and mending the wounds from both sides along with certain changes, primarily in Muslim majority countries (eg Apostasy laws and the discrimination of Christians in places like Pakistan). Also I would say Islam has more in common with Judaism than Christianity tbqh. I like early Mohammad though.
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Mecha Bavarian
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Postby Mecha Bavarian » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:11 pm

Saint Yosx wrote:
Mecha Bavarian wrote:“I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”
Quran 8:12

Yeah, no.



The Christian bible says the same thing:
I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.
Leviticus 26:25

“Your nakedness will be uncovered,
Your shame also will be exposed;
I will take vengeance and will not spare a man.”

Isaiah 47:3


There is something called New Testament, that call retcon most of the retarded parts of the Old Testament. There is a guy called Jesus you may know him. I bet he could wage a war and marry a 9 years old little girl, but he instead chose the path of peace.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:14 pm

Mecha Bavarian wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

The Christian bible says the same thing:
I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.
Leviticus 26:25

“Your nakedness will be uncovered,
Your shame also will be exposed;
I will take vengeance and will not spare a man.”

Isaiah 47:3


There is something called New Testament, that call retcon most of the retarded parts of the Old Testament. There is a guy called Jesus you may know him. I bet he could wage a war and marry a 9 years old little girl, but he instead chose the path of peace.



Same thing about the Muslims. I want you to read that entire book not just the verse and you will see what it actually means.

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:14 pm

Adamede wrote:
Mecha Bavarian wrote:They can return Hagia Sophia to the orthodox church for starters.

Plenty of Churches in Iberia and the Balkans that where originally mosques. Should those be returned as well?

None of those churches have anything like the same cultural and religious significance in Islam as the Hagia Sophia has for Orthodox Christians, though.
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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:18 pm

Mecha Bavarian wrote:
Cetacea wrote:Muslims dont hate Christians any more than Christians should hate Muslims.
The problems are entirely Political - and the continual interference of US and European powers in the Middle East

As for you - go make friends with some Muslims in your community

“I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”
Quran 8:12

Yeah, no.


“. . . and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (Quran 5:82)

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:20 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Adamede wrote:Plenty of Churches in Iberia and the Balkans that where originally mosques. Should those be returned as well?

None of those churches have anything like the same cultural and religious significance in Islam as the Hagia Sophia has for Orthodox Christians, though.

I don’t care. Fact is that nothing is owed by the current generation for the actions of the past. The Hagia Sophia belongs to the Turks to do with as they please, just as the former Mosques of the Balkans and Iberia are to the European cultures that control them now.

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Rijk van Afrika
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Postby Rijk van Afrika » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:20 pm

Adamede wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
He's not entirely wrong. While yes Europeans did engage in warfare and absolutley brutal behavior against natives in the Americas, at least in North America the native population DID experience a massive collapse from first contact and exposure to things like smallpox.

No ones denying that, we’re simply stating that European colonialism wasn’t just them coming in and taking land abandoned after all the natives died off from disease.

There was no smallpox in Anatolia. The degree of brutality the Turks enforced was much higher

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:22 pm

Adamede wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:None of those churches have anything like the same cultural and religious significance in Islam as the Hagia Sophia has for Orthodox Christians, though.

I don’t care. Fact is that nothing is owed by the current generation for the actions of the past. The Hagia Sophia belongs to the Turks to do with as they please, just as the former Mosques of the Balkans and Iberia are to the European cultures that control them now.

Legally, sure; the Turks can do what they like with the Hagia Sophia. Morally, however, I think they have an obligation to consider the feelings of the people for whom it is a sacred place, particularly given the manner in which it was acquired.
Last edited by Old Tyrannia on Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Have I done something for the general interest? Well then, I have had my reward. Let this always be present to thy mind, and never stop doing such good." - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations (Book XI, IV)
⚜ GOD SAVE THE KING

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:23 pm

Rijk van Afrika wrote:
Adamede wrote:No ones denying that, we’re simply stating that European colonialism wasn’t just them coming in and taking land abandoned after all the natives died off from disease.

There was no smallpox in Anatolia. The degree of brutality the Turks enforced was much higher

There was plenty of Smallpox in Anatolia.

And Smallpox and other diseases didn’t kill of the American Indians. It lowered their numbers, but they didn’t go extinct. To pretend that European colonization of the new world was just them moving in to abandoned lands is to be willfully ignorant of actual history.

The Europeans raped and murdered their way across the continents. The conquered natives that weren’t killed where enslaved, forcefully converted to Christianity, and had their culture ripped from them.

That’s up there with the actions of the Turks.

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:24 pm

I suppose its possible for individual Muslims to be reasonable enough (although its rarer from my perspective). I'm never going to forgive Islam in full however, because of the things it does to non-Muslims. Never unto the day I die. People inspired by Islam still did 9/11 and regularly attack my beloved western European countries/cultures among others I'm more inclined to back. Plus Islam tried to invade Europe and India after not being satisfied with annexing the middle east and north Africa.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken!

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:25 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Adamede wrote:I don’t care. Fact is that nothing is owed by the current generation for the actions of the past. The Hagia Sophia belongs to the Turks to do with as they please, just as the former Mosques of the Balkans and Iberia are to the European cultures that control them now.

Legally, sure; the Turks can do what they like with the Hagia Sophia. Morally, however, I think they have an obligation to consider the feelings of the people for whom it is a sacred place, particularly given the manner in which it was acquired.

I’m not arguing morals though. Morally I’d rather that they kept it a secular museum, to pay respect to the building’s history as both a church and a mosque. But that’s not the world we live in.

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