Muslims and Christians, how can we improve relations?

[Adamede]

It is. Citation: Europe today

I don't think you quite get how a logical proof works. Your argument is not that Muslims and Christians don't coexist. Your argument is that it is not possible for Muslims and Christians to coexist. Such a statement cannot be demonstrated with a single counterexample.

There are no spoons on my dinner table, and therefore spoons don't exist. Utter nonsense.

---

Muslims need to take more visible action to weed out rotten apples instead of seeming to support them.

I don't know what the situation is like in the world as a whole, but I know for a fact that in the Netherlands prominent Muslim religious organisers have openly stated on-air that radicalism is a serious problem, and some of their clergy have been injured defending their institutions from physical assaults by radical Islamicists.

What more can you ask for? That's more than what some Reformed Christian churches do about nutcases in their ranks.

Define “reformed church”.

[Plzen]

There is something called New Testament, that call retcon most of the retarded parts of the Old Testament. There is a guy called Jesus you may know him. I bet he could wage a war and marry a 9 years old little girl, but he instead chose the path of peace.

If you really think that the barbarism of the Old Testament have been superseded, then go ahead and publish a revised version of the Bible with all the statements endorsing genocide, slavery, etc., removed. After all, when the times change and practices that were once acceptable become no longer so, we amend our laws and our constitutions. Actually, since religion is a personal matter in secular democracies, you can go get a scissor and remove them from your copy of the Bible right now. Go on. I'll wait.

Unless you're saying that you don't actually believe what you said and you think that spiritual law should be above revision?

---

Define “reformed church”.

In this particular context, Dutch people who believe in Christianity but don't belong to either the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox traditions. Protestantism not being particularly fond of overarching religious institutions, Reformed Christians tend to be a fairly diverse bunch - but then you can say that about the Muslims too.

[Resilient Acceleration]

How the hell is any of that going to push for peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians?

I won't because Muslims and Christians cannot coexist peacefully.

The 87% Muslim-majority Indonesia is basically being governed by a Christian de-facto prime minister, and many Christians occupy many important political, social, and business position. I would argue that our current intolerance is as much an ethnic problem as it is a religious problem, as Christians with "native" ethnicity experience far less discrimination than Chinese-Christians. A big portion of the Islamic intolerance also magically disappeared after we appoint the boss of the largest moderate religious sect as vice president, leaving only hardline Islamists as a source of problem.

[Resilient Acceleration]

What specifically?

The fact that Islamic mosques supported by Saudi extremists are trying to push for sharia law in European lands.

No thank you. I am 1/10th German and I don't want my fatherland to be destroyed like that

Well I'm 3.75% German (based on family tree alone), but equating "all Islam" with "mosques supported by Saudi Arabia" is a pretty big claim. There's no doubt that institutionalized radicalism is a problem, but open hostility to everyone ain't gonna solve the problem.

[Rijk van Afrika]

I won't because Muslims and Christians cannot coexist peacefully.

The 87% Muslim-majority Indonesia is basically being governed by a Christian de-facto prime minister, and many Christians occupy many important political, social, and business position. I would argue that our current intolerance is as much an ethnic problem as it is a religious problem, as Christians with "native" ethnicity experience far less discrimination than Chinese-Christians. A big portion of the Islamic intolerance also magically disappeared after we appoint the boss of the largest moderate religious sect as vice president, leaving only hardline Islamists as a source of problem.

I don't care about Indonesia

[Nakena]

The 87% Muslim-majority Indonesia is basically being governed by a Christian de-facto prime minister, and many Christians occupy many important political, social, and business position. I would argue that our current intolerance is as much an ethnic problem as it is a religious problem, as Christians with "native" ethnicity experience far less discrimination than Chinese-Christians. A big portion of the Islamic intolerance also magically disappeared after we appoint the boss of the largest moderate religious sect as vice president, leaving only hardline Islamists as a source of problem.

I don't care about Indonesia

With that attitude you do no favor to yourself and your beliefs and cause.

[-Astoria-]

Muslims need to take more visible action to weed out rotten apples instead of seeming to support them.

"Support"? Here's a list of condemnations.

[Plzen]

I don't care about Indonesia

It is, of course, a meaningless truism that if you disregard countries in which multireligious societies work, then in no considered country will one find an example of a viable multireligious society.

[Plzen]

It indeed is ironically reversed in many christian circles - thousands of believers denounce misdeeds while the clergy remains silent; while with muslims it is the clergy speaking up but the masses yelling louder.

I'm not entirely convinced, but for the moment accepting this as true, why do you think this is?

[Resilient Acceleration]

I don't care about Indonesia

It is, of course, a meaningless truism that if you disregard countries in which multireligious societies work, then in no considered country will one find an example of a viable multireligious society.

In any case, multireligious societies are already widespread. Hell, current conditions are far far better than say 17th century Europe, where during the Thirty Years' War, a third of the German population died while some sources says it's 60%.

Also as a side note, Indonesia's economy is projected to overtake Germany's lmao.

[Nakena]

Very much this.

And this is very true for a lot if not the majority of moslems and the culture that comes with it. Thats why many westerners fail to understand Islam, because they see it simply as something that can be easily "reformed" or secularized. The idea of such absolute belief is alien to them.

But they do not understand how deep running this can be and how much, for this reason, a barrier it can form at some point. Theres a barrier of both understanding and believing in fundamentally different truths and worldviews as well.

And I think that includes many posters here in this thread too.

Doesn't mean it cannot be reformed. My country's secularism is basically dependent on religious orders like Nahdlatul 'Ulama, a mass organization with 90 million members established in 1912 to specifically combat the influence of radical Wahabbi clerics from Arabia. They basically try to reinterpret Islam, which has syncreticized with the local culture anyways as it genuinely spread peacefully here, to conform to national values as much as possible. Which is probably why, facing dire Islamist opposition, the incumbent president quickly appointed the boss of the organization as his vice president, giving him legitimacy to reverse uno card and basically brand Islamist hardliners as "heretic".

Did it worked out in the end? I have been received no updates on the situation in Indonesia in a while. The last thing I read was something a few years ago about islamism on the rise and people be publically whipped as "moral penality" or some stuff. mind you it has been quite a while

[-Astoria-]

Doesn't mean it cannot be reformed. My country's secularism is basically dependent on religious orders like Nahdlatul 'Ulama, a mass organization with 90 million members established in 1912 to specifically combat the influence of radical Wahabbi clerics from Arabia. They basically try to reinterpret Islam, which has syncreticized with the local culture anyways as it genuinely spread peacefully here, to conform to national values as much as possible. Which is probably why, facing dire Islamist opposition, the incumbent president quickly appointed the boss of the organization as his vice president, giving him legitimacy to reverse uno card and basically brand Islamist hardliners as "heretic".

Did it worked out in the end? I have been received no updates on the situation in Indonesia in a while. The last thing I read was something a few years ago about islamism on the rise and people be publically whipped as "moral penality" or some stuff. mind you it has been quite a while

IIRC that was in a specific region.

[Resilient Acceleration]

Doesn't mean it cannot be reformed. My country's secularism is basically dependent on religious orders like Nahdlatul 'Ulama, a mass organization with 90 million members established in 1912 to specifically combat the influence of radical Wahabbi clerics from Arabia. They basically try to reinterpret Islam, which has syncreticized with the local culture anyways as it genuinely spread peacefully here, to conform to national values as much as possible. Which is probably why, facing dire Islamist opposition, the incumbent president quickly appointed the boss of the organization as his vice president, giving him legitimacy to reverse uno card and basically brand Islamist hardliners as "heretic".

Did it worked out in the end? I have been received no updates on the situation in Indonesia in a while. The last thing I read was something a few years ago about islamism on the rise and people be publically whipped as "moral penality" or some stuff. mind you it has been quite a while

Public whipping is an exclusive prerogative of Aceh, an autonomous province who implemented Sharia law. They are allowed to do this as an agreement to end decades of separatist conflict, itself only possible after the province was devastated by tsunami.

Today's Islamism is definitely on a worrying rise, but it's still far better than in the 1950's, where the hardline Masyumi party issued a fatwa declaring anyone who don't vote for a pro-Islam party an apostate. But after the politically motivated Islamist demonstrations against "blasphemy" in 2016, the government has been pretty quick on recognizing Islamism as a "threat" to national unity (and their own office), resulting in crackdown against Islamist organizations through both legal and shadowy means.

In any case, Islamist movements are highly dependent of funding from anti-government oligarchs, most importantly the son of former dictator, convicted murderer, and gambling/beer magnate Tommy Suharto. They also don't really have a viable political candidate to offer, and have to stick to secular opposition parties to gain prominence. Now that the government has given said parties ministerial positions and secured a 80% parliamentary majority, Islamism magically ceased as a real political momentum. We'll have to be careful again in 2024, though.

[Rio Cana]

I don't care about Indonesia

It is, of course, a meaningless truism that if you disregard countries in which multireligious societies work, then in no considered country will one find an example of a viable multireligious society.

In Indonesia if you are not among the six recognized religions you kind of do not exist. Read - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41981430

[Krasny-Volny]

So I was thinking about this the other day while at my church. So I'm a devout Christian and a full believer in Jesus Christ etc. etc. Now I'm non denominational meaning I'm not catholic nor protestant, just believer of the bible and God. Now I thought Muslims, they believe in many of the same stuff as Christians, Jesus, a god, heaven and hell, at least from what I know (Please please PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong). So I was so confused why did they absolute hate each other. There was an entire decades long war fought back in the medieval ages, then recently Muslims have been painted in a bad light, especially by extremists on the right. I feel Muslims are so alike and I want to bridge the gap, yet the world is saying otherwise. So here I am. I want to know more exactly about your beliefs and be free to ask about mine. Especially in times like this we must respect and get to know each other so we do not fear each other.

My mother and her family are a Christian minority from a Muslim country. I see all this talk about how Westerners and Western countries need to respect Muslims more but it’s a two way street. Those of us who originally come from Muslim nations want the full respect and dignity you would expect when visiting a Western Christian country.


Respect and give respect.

[Atheris]

Just don't be dicks to each other.

I'm a universalist, so I believe all people will eventually enter Heaven, no matter their religion, race, or anything like that. After all, the Lord died for all of us, didn't he?

Just leave people alone and let them worship whoever - and whatever - they want, even if that's nobody and nothing.

[Resilient Acceleration]

It is, of course, a meaningless truism that if you disregard countries in which multireligious societies work, then in no considered country will one find an example of a viable multireligious society.

In Indonesia if you are not among the six recognized religions you kind of do not exist. Read - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41981430

Recently we have acknowledged the existence of traditional beliefs and liberalize the rules though, meaning that the differences and state discriminations has practically ceased to exist in all but name. Except for atheists.

[Mecha Bavarian]

Public whipping is an exclusive prerogative of Aceh, an autonomous province who implemented Sharia law. They are allowed to do this as an agreement to end decades of separatist conflict

I try to picture that line of thoughts.

"Give me independence"
"No"
"Then the violence will not stop"
"If i allow to you to implemente Sharia law and to whip our citizens on public, will you stop"
"Now you are talking"
"Fantastic, i will bring the national flags and the whips"

[New haven america]

It is. Citation: Europe today

I don't think you quite get how a logical proof works. Your argument is not that Muslims and Christians don't coexist. Your argument is that it is not possible for Muslims and Christians to coexist. Such a statement cannot be demonstrated with a single counterexample.

There are no spoons on my dinner table, and therefore spoons don't exist. Utter nonsense.

---

Muslims need to take more visible action to weed out rotten apples instead of seeming to support them.

I don't know what the situation is like in the world as a whole, but I know for a fact that in the Netherlands prominent Muslim religious organisers have openly stated on-air that radicalism is a serious problem, and some of their clergy have been injured defending their institutions from physical assaults by radical Islamicists.

What more can you ask for? That's more than what some Reformed Christian churches do about nutcases in their ranks.

I mean, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Iran not financially backing and supporting terrorists might be a step in the right direction.

[Picairn]

I don't understand why people hate each other so much just because of religion while we are equal in birth and death.

[Rijk van Afrika]

I don't understand why people hate each other so much just because of religion while we are equal in birth and death.

It's better for all that we stick to our own kind largely

[Salus Maior]

I don't understand why people hate each other so much just because of religion while we are equal in birth and death.

That everyone lives and dies isn't really that meaningful a bond, anymore than everyone also has hair or bones.

[Sungoldy-China]

When the two sides can agree on the interpretation of the Bible and the Quran, the relationship really improves, right?

But things that both parties cannot agree on internally is too difficult to reach an agreement with the outside world.

[The Alma Mater]

I don't understand why people hate each other so much just because of religion while we are equal in birth and death.

"I don't understand why people hate eachother based solely on the thing that defines their morals and outlook on life".
Think about what you said

[Picairn]

"I don't understand why people hate eachother based solely on the thing that defines their morals and outlook on life".
Think about what you said

You can have morals without religion though.