Germany's ex-royals want their riches back

[Nilokeras]

I mean, I don't really see the issue; if the properties in question are rightfully theirs, why should they not have them back? It's not like they're asking for the throne back or something.

The question is if House Hohenzollern or their members around this time had a substantially impact on the rise and establishment of, and support for Nazi-Germany. Which is... doubtful. At least as far as the "significant" part is concerned.

The framing of the law is less that the ex-royals played a major part in supporting the Nazis and moreso whether or not they 'supported' the Nazis beyond the line which the conditions of the time would have required you to as a regular citizen. ie lots of people did not openly denounce Nazism or wore swastika armbands or etc at the time because doing so would have gotten you persecuted. But becoming an active member of the party, for example, or hosting Nazi officials as part of a campaign for your restoration, would be beyond that line.

[Atheris]

In the end I guess it's a matter of the law but in my view property of the royal class belongs to the people, and they use it as representatives of the people. Once they no longer represent the people the property is no longer theirs. It is passed to the next representatives of the people.

inb4 "NOOOO MONARCHIES AREN'T REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PEOPLE"

[The republic ofTexas and northern Mexico]

If it’s there rightful property then sure.

[Phoenixy]

Since they’re private citizens of the Republic now, and it’s been handing property seized by the Eastern government back, I don’t see why there should be a special exemption for the ex-royals

For the very reason that when they owned said property they were not private citizens.

[Senkaku]

Since they’re private citizens of the Republic now, and it’s been handing property seized by the Eastern government back, I don’t see why there should be a special exemption for the ex-royals

They acquired that property as part of their official political function as monarchs. Germany's monarchy has been destroyed as a consequence of its own failures, I don't see why the German people should be expected to let them keep all the trappings of imperial wealth.

[Adamede]

I think this is something the courts are better able to decide rather the an a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals on the internet.

However I see nothing wrong with it going either way.

[Celritannia]

They should have every right to reclaim their personal property.

[Atheris]

Since they’re private citizens of the Republic now, and it’s been handing property seized by the Eastern government back, I don’t see why there should be a special exemption for the ex-royals

For the very reason that when they owned said property they were not private citizens.

But that's nothing to do with the law. The only reason a person can not get their property back is if they "substantially supported the Nazis".

[Nakena]

I don't disagree but thats not whats concerned here, since the riches in question were confiscated by the GDR post WW2 and are in no relation to the downfall of House Hohenzollern post WW1.

So different story.

They started the ball rolling on the Long War of the 20th Century. I don't see it as a different conflict; it all flowed from the decisions the Kaiser made. I don't have sympathy for the descendants of the Qing Dynasty either, who got a nice settlement at first under the ROC and later faced much harsher measures-- if your ancestors rule the country and profit hugely from it, and then their misrule and bad decisions lead them to lose political control and eventually lose your family's fortune, that's not everyone else's problem. It's the risk you run when you run a personalist dictatorship as your family business.

As said before I agree with your view here. The Hohenzollern fucked royally up etc. It could be argued that they lost their right to rule even.

However they managed to retain most of their poessions inside germany post 1918.

The legal battle here now concerns those that were post WW2 confiscated by SMAD authorities in the eastern occupation zone. So from a legal perspective it is a different story.

[Senkaku]

They should have every right to reclaim their personal property.

Why? They acquired it as part of their old family business, the legitimacy of which rested on their divine right to rule and politically dominate Germany. That right and their political domination have been dispensed with as a consequence of their own errors, why shouldn't the German people take custody of the property now that the monarchy is gone?

[Brigadier General]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they were substantial nazis they likely would have been investigated or even prosecuted in the trials following the war.

However some of those items may have greater cultural value to the German people in a museum, in which case those items should be appropriated by the government and hopefully a cash value given to the family for their compulsory patriotism.

Now, had they been war criminals I would say seize everything sell whatever is not culturally significant and donate the proceeds to living relatives of the victims of the holocaust in as fair a way as possible. Even if that amounts to a small amount, its the intent and gesture that would matter.

[No State Here]

I think this is something the courts are better able to decide rather the an a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals on the internet.

No one here is deciding anything, this is a debate forum. NSG has people with strange opinions and ideologies sometimes, but that seems to be a side effect of being the official forum of a nation creation simulator

[Dytarma]

Bro its been a century, chill

What does that have to do with anything?

Well it just seemed that comment was filled with rage.

[Frajland]

Not directly, don't try pulling the whole "I'm technically related to Jesus" kinda thing.

Don't know what that means, but-- yes, it was direct. When your family enterprise is a personalist dictatorship in a major industrial country, and it fails, the consequences tend to be massive, far-reaching, and unpredictable. That's the nature of the business, they knew the risks. Frankly, given Europe's rather grim treatment of previous deposed dynasties, they probably got lucky that it hasn't gone worse for them. It might be time to stop tempting fate and quietly fade into the pages of history, rather than embarking on quixotic legal battles to reclaim an ancient fortune that they've long since lost the rights to.

TL;DR the "Jesus Relation" theory is that

if Jesus was the child of mary, and mary was human, (and assuming that humanity has existed continuously) you're extremely distantly related to Jesus, but that's kinda cheating.

Also after some looking into it, I feel that they should be able to get their stuff back, if they are able to pay for it and the funds go to something like a Holocaust museum or something in that vein.

[Senkaku]

They started the ball rolling on the Long War of the 20th Century. I don't see it as a different conflict; it all flowed from the decisions the Kaiser made. I don't have sympathy for the descendants of the Qing Dynasty either, who got a nice settlement at first under the ROC and later faced much harsher measures-- if your ancestors rule the country and profit hugely from it, and then their misrule and bad decisions lead them to lose political control and eventually lose your family's fortune, that's not everyone else's problem. It's the risk you run when you run a personalist dictatorship as your family business.

As said before I agree with your view here. The Hohenzollern fucked royally up etc. It could be argued that they lost their right to rule even.

However they managed to retain most of their poessions inside germany post 1918.

As part of a political settlement they made in the initial crumbling of the monarchy... but they set in motion, and indeed helped to assist, later events which made this settlement untenable. Tough shit for them.

The legal battle here now concerns those that were post WW2 confiscated by SMAD authorities in the eastern occupation zone. So from a legal perspective it is a different story.

I don't see it as being different. The fall of their dynasty set the stage for WW2, and furthermore they supported the Nazis in prosecuting that war. All of this still flows from the Kaiser's fuckups.

[Albionist Great Britain]

Gott segne das Haus Hohenzollern. I wish the royals luck in regaining their stolen properties and all the best to their health.

Here’s hoping Deutschland reinstates its monarchy as well.

[Phoenixy]

For the very reason that when they owned said property they were not private citizens.

But that's nothing to do with the law. The only reason a person can not get their property back is if they "substantially supported the Nazis".

Legally it is quite problematic, because if they were to give one part of the property back, then they'd have to give the entirety of the German crown property back to them which as you understand would not only be troublesome, but also an institutional defeat for Germany as a Federal Republic.

[Senkaku]

Don't know what that means, but-- yes, it was direct. When your family enterprise is a personalist dictatorship in a major industrial country, and it fails, the consequences tend to be massive, far-reaching, and unpredictable. That's the nature of the business, they knew the risks. Frankly, given Europe's rather grim treatment of previous deposed dynasties, they probably got lucky that it hasn't gone worse for them. It might be time to stop tempting fate and quietly fade into the pages of history, rather than embarking on quixotic legal battles to reclaim an ancient fortune that they've long since lost the rights to.

TL;DR the "Jesus Relation" theory is that

if Jesus was the child of mary, and mary was human, (and assuming that humanity has existed continuously) you're extremely distantly related to Jesus, but that's kinda cheating.

Cool? And?

[The Blaatschapen]

Give it back, but levy immediate back taxes not paid since ages. With interest. Both property and inheritance tax.


More seriously, no, let them work for their riches, just like the rest of us common people.

[Commonwealth of Hank the Cat]

Give it back, but levy immediate back taxes not paid since ages. With interest. Both property and inheritance tax.


More seriously, no, let them work for their riches, just like the rest of us common people.

B-but how am I going to live without my ten castles?!

[Frajland]

TL;DR the "Jesus Relation" theory is that

if Jesus was the child of mary, and mary was human, (and assuming that humanity has existed continuously) you're extremely distantly related to Jesus, but that's kinda cheating.

Cool? And?

It's essentially using something that's very distant and indirect to say that it all leads back to one person.
No, the Hohenzollerns are not solely responsible for literally everything that has ever happened in human history since 1918, and that's not even the issue here; the issue is the guy's support of the Nazis.

[Celritannia]

They should have every right to reclaim their personal property.

Why? They acquired it as part of their old family business, the legitimacy of which rested on their divine right to rule and politically dominate Germany. That right and their political domination have been dispensed with as a consequence of their own errors, why shouldn't the German people take custody of the property now that the monarchy is gone?

Because then the democratic elected German Government would be no different than Monarchies who accumulated that wealth.

Plus, there is a difference between a Monarch's State Property, and a Monarch's Personal Property.

Under the German repatriation scheme, they promised all citizens would receive their property back as long as they did not support the Nazi Regime.
One member of the whole party supported them, but that does not mean the whole family is at fault.

Should we treat people differently simply because their ancestors did something a long time ago? Or should we treat them like every other private citizen under the law?

[Phoenixy]

Give it back, but levy immediate back taxes not paid since ages. With interest. Both property and inheritance tax.


More seriously, no, let them work for their riches, just like the rest of us common people.

The people:

[No State Here]

This thread is getting brigaded by the Kaiserboos, actually that seems to happen everywhere on the internet when the German Empire is criticized

[Senkaku]

Gott segne das Haus Hohenzollern. I wish the royals luck in regaining their stolen properties and all the best to their health.

Here’s hoping Deutschland reinstates its monarchy as well.

See, if they were reinstating the monarchy, I'd be fine with them getting their shit back. But till that happens, no palaces for them.

For the very reason that when they owned said property they were not private citizens.

But that's nothing to do with the law. The only reason a person can not get their property back is if they "substantially supported the Nazis".

Firstly, there seems to be plenty of evidence of their substantial support for the Nazis as private citizens during the period, but even if we disregard that-- their mistakes when they ran the country, and the consequent loss of WW1, collapse of the dynasty, and political turmoil which overtook Germany, all seem to constitute extremely substantial (indeed, vital and indispensable) support for the Nazis. If they hadn't made such catastrophic errors, Germany might still be a monarchy and Nazism would never have risen.

They should receive nothing.