Are the actions of the U.S. military justified?

[Alcala-Cordel]

"Just following orders" is not an excuse for atrocities.

Of course. The USA hasn't committed any atrocities though.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not but oh my god this is funny.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Invasion =\= Atrocity. We weren't matching the populace of iraq into gas chambers. There was no "This is an obviously illegal thing we are doing here." Moment.

the invasion of iraq was unjustified, simple as, that's the obviously illegal thing

Both wars in Iraq were some of the most just wars the US has fought in since WWII though. The only war even remotely more just was the Korean War which was purely defensive.

feels like treating the south american continent as your playground, including funding and supporting those who ordered the assassination of literal saints (oscar romero) seems like an atrocity to me

Heavy-handed interventionism isn't necessarily an atrocity. I mean, the US backing animals like Peron or Pinochet is, but that's not much to do with the US military.

[Caninope]

Both wars in Iraq were some of the most just wars the US has fought in since WWII though. The only war even remotely more just was the Korean War which was purely defensive.

All you're doing is directly supporting my point that the US is an unjust belligerent by any meaningful definition of just war. The First Gulf War, I can accept, but certainly not the second.

feels like treating the south american continent as your playground, including funding and supporting those who ordered the assassination of literal saints (oscar romero) seems like an atrocity to me

Heavy-handed interventionism isn't necessarily an atrocity. I mean, the US backing animals like Peron or Pinochet is, but that's not much to do with the US military.

The US security apparatus shares collective blame for the things it does.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Both wars in Iraq were some of the most just wars the US has fought in since WWII though. The only war even remotely more just was the Korean War which was purely defensive.

All you're doing is directly supporting my point that the US is an unjust belligerent by any meaningful definition of just war. The First Gulf War, I can accept, but certainly not the second.

Its casus belli was not necessarily argued in good faith and I'll freely concede that (though Saddam's Iraq did have WMDs, it wasn't the type that they were accused of having), but any war that removes an animal like Saddam is ex post facto just.

Heavy-handed interventionism isn't necessarily an atrocity. I mean, the US backing animals like Peron or Pinochet is, but that's not much to do with the US military.

The US security apparatus shares collective blame for the things it does.

Not really. The US Armed Forces does not share the blame of what animals the US government supports. The United States as a sovereign polity can be blamed for the atrocities that people like Peron or Pinochet committed, but the US Armed Forces can't. Of course, the military has its own can of worms for which to be blamed.

[La Xinga]

Comes the question who decides the war crimes.

Typically, those sets of international law pertaining to the laws of war that all participating nations adhere to. There aren't really that many major principles in the law of war tbh.

If the UN says playing NS was a war crime then?

Because a bunch of governments say something that doesn't mean I agree with them.

[Adamede]

Typically, those sets of international law pertaining to the laws of war that all participating nations adhere to. There aren't really that many major principles in the law of war tbh.

If the UN says playing NS was a war crime then?

Because a bunch of governments say something that doesn't mean I agree with them.

That doesn’t mean you’re right either.

[Neanderthaland]

Tell that to the Kurds. Or to the thousands of Syrians your Government sent to Libya and Armenia to die instead of Turks.

The Turkish army has no problem with the Kurds, in the hearts of the Turkish people, the job of the Turkish soldier in Syria is the fight against terrorism.The use of FSA terrorists in Azerbaijani territory is completely a black propaganda of the Turkish enemies. If you are going to talk with these fake news, I suggest you not to talk at all. America, on the other hand, sees the whole world as its toparks and I try to explain this mistake. What is America doing in Syria ? Money Money and more money. I dream of a world without limits, in which humanity is only engaged in science, because as a human being I know that the real enemy is death.

Quiz time: did America keep any of that gold? Do you even know?

[The Emerald Legion]

Invasion =\= Atrocity. We weren't matching the populace of iraq into gas chambers. There was no "This is an obviously illegal thing we are doing here." Moment.

the invasion of iraq was unjustified, simple as, that's the obviously illegal thing

No it wasn't. There are very few nations where we would be unjustified in invading.

[Gusdovania]

The US should learn to mind it`s own business.

[The Emerald Legion]

The US should learn to mind it`s own business.

Why?

[Atheris]

Invasion =\= Atrocity. We weren't matching the populace of iraq into gas chambers. There was no "This is an obviously illegal thing we are doing here." Moment.

the invasion of iraq was unjustified, simple as, that's the obviously illegal thing

I beg to disagree. The invasion of Iraq was justified. Iraq was violating WMD treaties by forcing out UN weapons inspectors and developing chemical weapons and using them in a genocide against the Kurds. Even if WMDs weren't being developed by Iraq, I would still say that the deposition of Iraq was not any less justified than the deposition of Mussolini or Hitler - fellow genocidal dictators.

The problem with Iraq wasn't that we invaded, the problem was with the speed that we left and how we set up the new government. If we left later and helped establish a stable and unbiased government, Iraq wouldn't be the debacle it became.

[La Xinga]

If the UN says playing NS was a war crime then?

Because a bunch of governments say something that doesn't mean I agree with them.

That doesn’t mean you’re right either.

"Oranges taste good"

"Oranges taste bad"

"That doesn't mean you're right!"

[Adamede]

That doesn’t mean you’re right either.

"Oranges taste good"

"Oranges taste bad"

"That doesn't mean you're right!"

There’s a difference between “orange taste good or bad” and “the globally accepted drift ion of war crimes is wrong because I said so”. When it comes to geopolitics we have a good definition of what they are.

[The Republic of Fore]

1. Yeah, unprovoked attack that was caused by you trying to destroy someone's economy when they hadn't done anything to you.
2. They weren't going to occupy Hawaii, you're being utterly ridiculous. Had they even tried we could have pushed them back. Never mind that literally every single one of our admirals argued against moving our fleet to pearl harbor. But hey, I'm sure a rando on the internet knows better than people who had longer military careers than either of us have likely been alive.
3. They wouldn't have happened if America didn't get involved in something that wasn't our concern. There was no reason for us to get involved. We don't owe southeast asia a thing.

1. Maybe America should've considered minding Its own business.
2. All of the countries that Japan occupied, because it got us involved. No, we should have minded our own business and not got involved in a scenario where exactly zero Americans had been harmed. As I said before, we could have kept the pacific fleet in san diego and expanded it just in case.
3. Maybe the US should mind It's own damn business and not stick It's nose in places where it doesn't belong then cry when people fight back. Southeast asia isnt a part of the US. So what happens there isn't our concern.

Before I delve into this absolute sewer of takes, I will answer my opinion on the OP. The American military has been at times, justified, and at times not justified. There is no denying that the modern American military is in the Middle East for extremely dubious reasons. However the involvement in the world wars was undoubtedly and completely justified. To claim otherwise is complete ignorance.

Now, on to some of the shittiest takes I’ve ever heard.

America was attacked, it retaliated. That is complelty justified, end of story honestly. But let’s dig into some of your points.

You think America should’ve kept selling imperial Japan oil, and refusing to do so put their economy at risk, thus why they attacked. You seem to believe this was “not minding our own business” and “unjustified”. That’s complete bullshit. Japan was a cult-like (if not completely a massive cult) military dictatorship run by an insane emperor who sent young men to literally carry out mass suicide attacks and was definitely going to target us at some point soon.

Japan was a threat to many nations and many people. The Rape of Nanking, named so because Japanese troops essentially, and quite literally, raped the entire population of a Chinese city. They played games with the heads of children, held competitions to see which officer could cut the most civilians heads off the fastest, and many, many other things. The things they did were so mind numbingly sickening that literal Fucking nazis in the city helped civilians escape. The fucking nazis had more empathy than the Japanese. And this was one of many, many, many war crimes. Imagine if they had made it to the west coast, or even Hawaii. Imagine what they’d do to the American people, the civilians you so desperately care about.
This isn’t even mentioning what they did to POWs. We can get into that if you’d like, but it’s honestly disgusting. It makes putting Japanese Americans in interment camps look kind.

Japan was an aggressive military state that sought power on a global scale. If you wish to be some a heartless edgelord and claim it’s “none of our business” then so be it, empathy is a virtue I guess. America refused to support japan’s actions, and called for Japan to immediately stop their aggressive expansion. They refused, we cut off their oil. It was damn well with our rights to do so. Funnily, it was America that didn’t owe Japan jack fucking shit, and we weren’t about to support what they were doing, fuck em’. We may not have owed asia anything, but as Fucking humans (and people who could see an openly aggressive military cultist state invading other countries), it was our duty to at least not support their actions. To say otherwise is disgustingly nihilistic, selfish, stupid, and blind.

Japan needed that oil to continue it’s aggressive expansion, and when we refused to deliver, they attacked. We responded. They wanted to fight, so they got a fight. Refusing to support someone you don’t like is a justified and simple thing to understand. You need to realize that you can’t just sit in a corner and ignore everyone, the real world requires diplomacy, politics. Our country was built on the ideals of free men. We don’t always stick to those ideals but god damnit we tried. And don’t be stupid, America was on japan’s hit list years before they ever attacked, it was a matter of time. They planned on attacking the US, it doesn’t take a genius to see (or research) that.

Moving our fleets to Pearl Harbor wasn’t because we planned on attacking them, it was because we knew they were going to eventually attack and we wanted to be ready. Fuck, we damn well were minding our own business.

Your lack of empathy is hardly a sound argument, further you have no idea what the context of the US stopping our supply of oil to Japan. Ironically you spit on the graves of those brave men who fought for our right to be free in WWII by saying such disgusting things. They chose to fight, to defend out country from a hostile state and they chose to defend our allies. They chose this so everyone could live free.

Our allies fought for their freedom in Europe, freedom from the tyrannical grip of the nazi state. To damn them to their deaths is to damn the US as well. Once Germany and Japan were done with Europe and Asia who the fuck do think was next on their list? South America? No, they were going to go after the United States. “Minding our own business” would have meant millions upon millions of more American deaths and possibly even the loss of a war with enough time. So don’t you dare suggest it wasn’t our business to get involved. Besides, if you want to look at it as coldly as possible as I’m sure you’d love to, all of those European nations owed us now.

Also, hindsight is 20/20, we do know better than the US military in the 1940s, and a bunch of people on the internet sometimes like to do a thing called “looking at history” maybe you should try it. Because American admirals also famously fielded a literally completely useless torpedo for a good chunk of the pacific war because the defense industry in charge of producing them paid nicely. How many American lives do you think that cost?


TL;DR: America was going to be attacked by Japan eventually and was attacking a bunch of other people, and was making the nazis look like humanitarians, so we said fuck them. They resorted to attacking us, now you’re sitting here blaming America for not supporting an insane cult military state like you’re some sort of genius for saying “oh well no one had to die if we just let them keep being aggressive military expansionists with a taste for massive war crimes”.

Also, ironically, contrary to your beliefs, the American people supported being in the war, and it helped get us out of the depression, so maybe you should yell at them too?

1. Japan was never going to invade the US, please stop spreading this nonsense, they abandoned their plans to do so when they realized it wasn't feasible.
2. Yeah, we moved our fleet to pearl harbor to be ready for an attack. And that worked out great didn't it? I hear losing a dozen ships and over 2,000 sailors and marines is a great way to show how ready for war you are. There's no reason we couldn't have kept the fleet in san diego, continued expanding and then attacked if japan tried something.
3. Oh yeah, we were totally minding our own business. Not like we were arming Japan's enemies and tried to destroy their economy or anything. I know about the rape of nanking, but that's China's problem.
4. I have tried looking at history. And I see that moving our fleet did squat all to prepare us for war besides lead to the deadliest attack on US soil until 9/11.
5. Germany and Japan couldn't have conquered the US, that's a ridiculous fantasy. And they would not have tried.
6. I'm blaming america for shoving It's nose where it didn't belong. Please tell me when China became a US state. We have no "duty" to anyone but ourselves.
7. It doesn't matter whether Europe owes us, we don't need them.
8. I'm not spitting on anyone's graves. I'm saying they would have been better off contributing to their own country than dying for the benefit of some foreigner. And please don't give me this "they fought for freedom!" drivel. The vast majority of WW2 vets were drafted, they fought because they were forced to.
9. Yeah well "the people" are drooling brain-dead morons who think chocolate milk comes from brown cows and can't find new york state on a map. So excuse me if I don't consider what they do or don't support to be relevant. Especially when the vast majority of them only support the war as long as It's someone else dying instead of them.

[The Republic of Fore]

Yeah, after we declared war on Japan when we stuck our nose into something that wasn't our concern. It would have been smarter to not embargo Japan, keep the pacific fleet in San Diego, and continue expanding it just in case Japan did attack anyway. And if they didn't, all those boys who died could've become doctors, or lawyers, or engineers. Far more useful to us than they were as worm food inside a pine box.

By your same logic, we didn't owe Japan anything either.

So why let them have our oil and rubber if they're doing something we don't care for? Or do we just roll over whenever some power is mildly aggressive towards us?

You're sounding like you want to be tough on the world, but really you just want America to be weak and easily manipulated by outside powers.

They were paying for it, weren't they? We should sell to whoever will buy. I want Americans to not have our sons wasted on other countries' problems.

[Amazonia-on-Themiscyra]

Most of them are to me; I think Vietnam was kind of pointless and I'm not sure abut our intervention in the Middle East, but for the most part, yes, I support our military actions

[Senkaku]

What was your opinion on the German invasion of Poland and Western Europe?

That it was western Europe's problem, and not worth sending hundreds of thousands of American boys to die for.

Given the state of German missile, long-range aircraft, and submarine technology by the end of the war, even as they came under under immense military and economic pressure, do you really believe it would've stayed "Western Europe's problem" for long?

[The Republic of Fore]

That it was western Europe's problem, and not worth sending hundreds of thousands of American boys to die for.

Given the state of German missile, long-range aircraft, and submarine technology by the end of the war, even as they came under under immense military and economic pressure, do you really believe it would've stayed "Western Europe's problem" for long?

Is there any actual proof that Germany planned to attack the US? People said the same thing about north korea. How did that prediction turn out?

[La Xinga]

"Oranges taste good"

"Oranges taste bad"

"That doesn't mean you're right!"

When it comes to geopolitics we have a good definition of what they are.

And who says I think I think they're good?

[Postauthoritarian America]

The US, being (still) a global superpower, is going to use its military where it feels it has to in order to protect its interests. That's just a fact of life; the justification is what it is. Among US interests in the Middle East are no more 9/11s and a reliable flow of oil to, not so much the US as US allies especially in Europe. No more 9/11s means no Taliban regime in Afghanistan, no ISIS caliphate anywhere, no Iran as regional power broker (with or without nukes), etc.; a reliable flow of oil means more or less the same thing. Ensuring that is going to require a certain US military presence and activity in the region. My advice would be to get used to it.

Note that US interest in the Middle East is distinct from Trump interest in the Middle East, which consists in unquestioning support for Israel and its own destablilizing activities in order to appeal to Christian authoritarians, going easy on Mister Bone Saw in Saudi so he won't call in Ivanka's husband's family's loans, etc.

[Senkaku]

Given the state of German missile, long-range aircraft, and submarine technology by the end of the war, even as they came under under immense military and economic pressure, do you really believe it would've stayed "Western Europe's problem" for long?

Is there any actual proof that Germany planned to attack the US?

Oh, nothing besides their plans as early as 1938 to build a bomber that could hit the continental US, and the mountains of rhetoric about us being a decadent and racially impure liberal democracy full of Blacks and Jews, and their megalomaniacal drive for world domination that led them to attack every country they could get their hands on and attempt to wipe out all their untermenschen...?

People said the same thing about north korea. How did that prediction turn out?

Apples to oranges, and I'm pretty sure no one (or at least no one credible) has ever seriously thought North Korea plans on building a vast Eurasian empire or launching a first strike on the United States.

[Adamede]

When it comes to geopolitics we have a good definition of what they are.

And who says I think I think they're good?

And I’m saying that what you think doesn’t matter worth a damn.

[Adamede]

Before I delve into this absolute sewer of takes, I will answer my opinion on the OP. The American military has been at times, justified, and at times not justified. There is no denying that the modern American military is in the Middle East for extremely dubious reasons. However the involvement in the world wars was undoubtedly and completely justified. To claim otherwise is complete ignorance.

Now, on to some of the shittiest takes I’ve ever heard.

America was attacked, it retaliated. That is complelty justified, end of story honestly. But let’s dig into some of your points.

You think America should’ve kept selling imperial Japan oil, and refusing to do so put their economy at risk, thus why they attacked. You seem to believe this was “not minding our own business” and “unjustified”. That’s complete bullshit. Japan was a cult-like (if not completely a massive cult) military dictatorship run by an insane emperor who sent young men to literally carry out mass suicide attacks and was definitely going to target us at some point soon.

Japan was a threat to many nations and many people. The Rape of Nanking, named so because Japanese troops essentially, and quite literally, raped the entire population of a Chinese city. They played games with the heads of children, held competitions to see which officer could cut the most civilians heads off the fastest, and many, many other things. The things they did were so mind numbingly sickening that literal Fucking nazis in the city helped civilians escape. The fucking nazis had more empathy than the Japanese. And this was one of many, many, many war crimes. Imagine if they had made it to the west coast, or even Hawaii. Imagine what they’d do to the American people, the civilians you so desperately care about.
This isn’t even mentioning what they did to POWs. We can get into that if you’d like, but it’s honestly disgusting. It makes putting Japanese Americans in interment camps look kind.

Japan was an aggressive military state that sought power on a global scale. If you wish to be some a heartless edgelord and claim it’s “none of our business” then so be it, empathy is a virtue I guess. America refused to support japan’s actions, and called for Japan to immediately stop their aggressive expansion. They refused, we cut off their oil. It was damn well with our rights to do so. Funnily, it was America that didn’t owe Japan jack fucking shit, and we weren’t about to support what they were doing, fuck em’. We may not have owed asia anything, but as Fucking humans (and people who could see an openly aggressive military cultist state invading other countries), it was our duty to at least not support their actions. To say otherwise is disgustingly nihilistic, selfish, stupid, and blind.

Japan needed that oil to continue it’s aggressive expansion, and when we refused to deliver, they attacked. We responded. They wanted to fight, so they got a fight. Refusing to support someone you don’t like is a justified and simple thing to understand. You need to realize that you can’t just sit in a corner and ignore everyone, the real world requires diplomacy, politics. Our country was built on the ideals of free men. We don’t always stick to those ideals but god damnit we tried. And don’t be stupid, America was on japan’s hit list years before they ever attacked, it was a matter of time. They planned on attacking the US, it doesn’t take a genius to see (or research) that.

Moving our fleets to Pearl Harbor wasn’t because we planned on attacking them, it was because we knew they were going to eventually attack and we wanted to be ready. Fuck, we damn well were minding our own business.

Your lack of empathy is hardly a sound argument, further you have no idea what the context of the US stopping our supply of oil to Japan. Ironically you spit on the graves of those brave men who fought for our right to be free in WWII by saying such disgusting things. They chose to fight, to defend out country from a hostile state and they chose to defend our allies. They chose this so everyone could live free.

Our allies fought for their freedom in Europe, freedom from the tyrannical grip of the nazi state. To damn them to their deaths is to damn the US as well. Once Germany and Japan were done with Europe and Asia who the fuck do think was next on their list? South America? No, they were going to go after the United States. “Minding our own business” would have meant millions upon millions of more American deaths and possibly even the loss of a war with enough time. So don’t you dare suggest it wasn’t our business to get involved. Besides, if you want to look at it as coldly as possible as I’m sure you’d love to, all of those European nations owed us now.

Also, hindsight is 20/20, we do know better than the US military in the 1940s, and a bunch of people on the internet sometimes like to do a thing called “looking at history” maybe you should try it. Because American admirals also famously fielded a literally completely useless torpedo for a good chunk of the pacific war because the defense industry in charge of producing them paid nicely. How many American lives do you think that cost?


TL;DR: America was going to be attacked by Japan eventually and was attacking a bunch of other people, and was making the nazis look like humanitarians, so we said fuck them. They resorted to attacking us, now you’re sitting here blaming America for not supporting an insane cult military state like you’re some sort of genius for saying “oh well no one had to die if we just let them keep being aggressive military expansionists with a taste for massive war crimes”.

Also, ironically, contrary to your beliefs, the American people supported being in the war, and it helped get us out of the depression, so maybe you should yell at them too?

1. Japan was never going to invade the US, please stop spreading this nonsense, they abandoned their plans to do so when they realized it wasn't feasible.
2. Yeah, we moved our fleet to pearl harbor to be ready for an attack. And that worked out great didn't it? I hear losing a dozen ships and over 2,000 sailors and marines is a great way to show how ready for war you are. There's no reason we couldn't have kept the fleet in san diego, continued expanding and then attacked if japan tried something.
3. Oh yeah, we were totally minding our own business. Not like we were arming Japan's enemies and tried to destroy their economy or anything. I know about the rape of nanking, but that's China's problem.
4. I have tried looking at history. And I see that moving our fleet did squat all to prepare us for war besides lead to the deadliest attack on US soil until 9/11.
5. Germany and Japan couldn't have conquered the US, that's a ridiculous fantasy. And they would not have tried.
6. I'm blaming america for shoving It's nose where it didn't belong. Please tell me when China became a US state. We have no "duty" to anyone but ourselves.
7. It doesn't matter whether Europe owes us, we don't need them.
8. I'm not spitting on anyone's graves. I'm saying they would have been better off contributing to their own country than dying for the benefit of some foreigner. And please don't give me this "they fought for freedom!" drivel. The vast majority of WW2 vets were drafted, they fought because they were forced to.
9. Yeah well "the people" are drooling brain-dead morons who think chocolate milk comes from brown cows and can't find new york state on a map. So excuse me if I don't consider what they do or don't support to be relevant. Especially when the vast majority of them only support the war as long as It's someone else dying instead of them.

If Japan has the right to not have America care about its atrocities in China than the US has a right to not trade Japan.

[Kubra]

Also, America first, boyos. Who America gives arms to is America's business, if Japan has a problem well that's more a them problem.

[La Xinga]

And who says I think I think they're good?

And I’m saying that what you think doesn’t matter worth a damn.

If so, it's the same to you.