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Indiana AG: LGBT Parents should be stripped of Rights

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Kungsu
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Postby Kungsu » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:44 am

My issue with all of this is that people keep trying to superimpose their religious beliefs onto legislation. Pretty much any anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment comes from some religious conviction or another. The government should be kept secular. How would you like it if a different religion started to impose laws that suppressed your rights as a [insert denomination here]? (i.e. If you are a Christian and the government enacts Sharia law and makes it illegal to be non-Muslim.) The government's job is to allow people to live how they want in manner that is relatively safe for themselves and others, not legislate morals. That's what religion is for.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:13 am

Kungsu wrote:My issue with all of this is that people keep trying to superimpose their religious beliefs onto legislation. Pretty much any anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment comes from some religious conviction or another. The government should be kept secular. How would you like it if a different religion started to impose laws that suppressed your rights as a [insert denomination here]? (i.e. If you are a Christian and the government enacts Sharia law and makes it illegal to be non-Muslim.) The government's job is to allow people to live how they want in manner that is relatively safe for themselves and others, not legislate morals. That's what religion is for.


There are two things that influence homophobia, those being religion and toxic masculinity. Neither has been good for us.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:16 am

Sundiata wrote:
Kernen wrote:Come on man is a meaningless plea in the context of a rigorous discussion. You might consider refutation.

Man, I know. I'm just sensitive to homophobia.

From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:51 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Man, I know. I'm just sensitive to homophobia.

From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.


Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:53 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.


Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.

No it hasn't. Im still at a loss to understand why two men or woman being in love and getting married and possibly adopting children is such a big deal to people. How does it affect you in any way?

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:53 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.


Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.


Apparently advocating people be stripped of their rights is just "moral opposition".
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:56 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.


Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.

And why doesn't the proverbial shoe fit in that case?
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Esalia
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Postby Esalia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:12 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:From your comments in this thread, only a few limited forms of it.


Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality,


Well, of course a term operating as a catch-all term of hatred towards a particular group will evolve to the point where it covers all hatred towards a particular group.

This is like claiming that "racism is too broad because it covers moral opposition to black people". That's literally what the word is for.

so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.


Boo hoo, getting called out on your hatred means you can't be hateful anymore. Cry me a river.
Last edited by Esalia on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am

Vassenor wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.


Apparently advocating people be stripped of their rights is just "moral opposition".


Rights?

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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:15 am

Esalia wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality,


Well, of course a term operating as a catch-all term of hatred towards a particular group will evolve to the point where it covers all hatred towards a particular group.

This is like claiming that "racism is too broad because it covers moral opposition to black people". That's literally what the word is for.

so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.


Boo hoo, getting called out on your hatred means you can't be hateful anymore. Cry me a river.


What on earth are you taking about? There's nothing morally wrong about being black. Race is an immutable condition of being. It is literally skin deep.

Harry S Truman said true criticism is engendered by respect. If I oppose homosexuality from a moral viewpoint, it's because I have respect for humanity.
Last edited by Turelisa- on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:17 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Esalia wrote:
Well, of course a term operating as a catch-all term of hatred towards a particular group will evolve to the point where it covers all hatred towards a particular group.

This is like claiming that "racism is too broad because it covers moral opposition to black people". That's literally what the word is for.



Boo hoo, getting called out on your hatred means you can't be hateful anymore. Cry me a river.


What on earth are you taking about? There's nothing morally wrong about being black. Race is an immutable condition of being. It is literally skin deep.

and what's morally wrong about being gay? How does two men or woman getting married and possibly adopting children harm you in any way?

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:19 am

San Lumen wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Homophobia is a term which has become too broadened, to cover not only violence - physical assault and intentional emotional distress - but also moral opposition to homosexuality, so as to silence criticism and shut down debate.

No it hasn't. Im still at a loss to understand why two men or woman being in love and getting married and possibly adopting children is such a big deal to people. How does it affect you in any way?

It's not really a "big deal" per say. It's just that morally speaking, a child should be raised by a mother and father. Homosexuals aren't bad people or even poor parents with respect to physical or material concerns but material concerns aren't the end-all-be-all to people with concerns like mine. There's a larger agenda we're working on here.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Esalia
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Postby Esalia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:19 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Esalia wrote:
Well, of course a term operating as a catch-all term of hatred towards a particular group will evolve to the point where it covers all hatred towards a particular group.

This is like claiming that "racism is too broad because it covers moral opposition to black people". That's literally what the word is for.



Boo hoo, getting called out on your hatred means you can't be hateful anymore. Cry me a river.


What on earth are you taking about? There's nothing morally wrong about being black. Race is an immutable condition of being. It is literally skin deep.


Yes. And?

What made you go "what on earth are you talking about?"

Harry S Truman said true criticism is engendered by respet. If I oppose homosexuality from a moral viewpoint, it's because I have respect for humanity.


Harry S Truman is not infallible, and I do not care if you think you have respect for humanity.
Last edited by Esalia on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:19 am

San Lumen wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
What on earth are you taking about? There's nothing morally wrong about being black. Race is an immutable condition of being. It is literally skin deep.

and what's morally wrong about being gay? How does two men or woman getting married and possibly adopting children harm you in any way?


I've already outlined my opinions earlier in the thread.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:22 am

Turelisa- wrote:
San Lumen wrote:and what's morally wrong about being gay? How does two men or woman getting married and possibly adopting children harm you in any way?


I've already outlined my opinions earlier in the thread.

I think that it's important to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, thank you.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:28 am

Esalia wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
What on earth are you taking about? There's nothing morally wrong about being black. Race is an immutable condition of being. It is literally skin deep.


Yes. And?

What made you go "what on earth are you talking about?"

Harry S Truman said true criticism is engendered by respet. If I oppose homosexuality from a moral viewpoint, it's because I have respect for humanity.


Harry S Truman is not infallible, and I do not care if you think you have respect for humanity.


You apparently conflate racism with both homophobia and moral opposition to homosexuality.

A racist thinks a black person is inferior based on his emotive reaction to his racial features and hates black people as an existential threat. His hatred is objectified in violence against black people, which is perversion.
A homophobic person thinks a homosexual is inferior based on his emotive reaction to his homosexual behaviour, and hates homosexuals as an existential threat. His hatred is objectified as violence against homosexuals, which is perversion.
A Christian thinks homosexual behaviour is an existential threat to the homosexual person and criticises their behaviour, which is perversion, because he is a Christian who hates perversion.
Last edited by Turelisa- on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:29 am

San Lumen wrote:and what's morally wrong about being gay?

It isn't morally wrong but to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered." Homosexual desires are not sinful but homosexual acts are sinful. I am not trying to offend your sensibilities when I say this: it is a very tough teaching but I sincerely believe that it echos the will of God.

Thank you.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:30 am

Sundiata wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
I've already outlined my opinions earlier in the thread.

I think that it's important to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, thank you.


Homosexuality is sexual acts. Desires, thoughts and ideations have no objective reality.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I think that it's important to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, thank you.


Homosexuality is sexual acts. Desires, thoughts and ideations have no objective reality.

Ok and why is it any of your business? I don’t see how it affects you in any way.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:35 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I think that it's important to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, thank you.


Homosexuality is sexual acts. Desires, thoughts and ideations have no objective reality.

Homosexuality is same-sex attraction. Homosexual acts are a separate subject. Homosexual marriage is likewise a separate subject.

To conflate all of these concerns functionally alienates people. It isn't a choice to be attracted to someone of the same sex but that is certainly homosexuality. We have a moral obligation to affirm that homosexuality is not a choice.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Esalia
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Postby Esalia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:38 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Esalia wrote:
Yes. And?

What made you go "what on earth are you talking about?"



Harry S Truman is not infallible, and I do not care if you think you have respect for humanity.


You apparently conflate racism with both homophobia and moral opposition to homosexuality.


Aside that the racism comparison isn't necessarily "racism is as bad as homophobia" but "a word that covers hatred against a group will cover hatred against that group", I see functionally little difference between people who hate gay people and people with "moral opposition" to homosexuality.

Both lead to the same end result, the oppression of gay people. That those "morally opposed" to homosexuality wrap their desire to oppress in something other than open hatred changes nothing to me, just as the hypothetical person "morally opposed" to black people might wrap their desire to oppress black people in something other than open hatred.

So taking this;
A racist thinks a black person is inferior based on his emotive reaction to his racial features and hates black people as an existential threat. His hatred is objectified in violence against black people, which is perversion.
A homophobic person thinks a homosexual is inferior based on his emotive reaction to his homosexual behaviour, and hates homosexuals as an existential threat. His hatred is objectified as violence against homosexuals, which is perversion.
A Christian thinks homosexual behaviour is an existential threat to the homosexual person and criticises their behaviour, which is perversion, because he is a Christian who hates perversion.


I see functionally little difference between the homophobe and the Christian. If either of them get their way, gay people will be oppressed. That the Christian wraps up their hatred in patronising """care""" for the gay person changes nothing.
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Esalia
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Postby Esalia » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:39 am

Turelisa- wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I think that it's important to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, thank you.


Homosexuality is sexual acts. Desires, thoughts and ideations have no objective reality.


Homosexuality is the attraction, not the act. One can be gay and never engage in same-sex sex, and one can be something other than gay and engage in same-sex sex.
Last edited by Esalia on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:49 am

Esalia wrote:I see functionally little difference between the homophobe and the Christian. If either of them get their way, gay people will be oppressed. That the Christian wraps up their hatred in patronising """care""" for the gay person changes nothing.

No man, no.

I am very hurt that you think this. Everyone, including people who experience same-sex attraction are valuable for being themselves. You make each day matter because you're you.

We like you for being you. That's sincere. Speaking as a Christian, the last thing we want is to lose you. We know it's not easy. But we love you, we really do love you, and most importantly God loves you.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:54 am

Sundiata wrote:
San Lumen wrote:and what's morally wrong about being gay?

It isn't morally wrong but to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered." Homosexual desires are not sinful but homosexual acts are sinful. I am not trying to offend your sensibilities when I say this: it is a very tough teaching but I sincerely believe that it echos the will of God.

Thank you.

So as long as someone doesn’t act on said desires and lives a life completely alone it’s ok to you?

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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:56 am

Sundiata wrote:
Esalia wrote:I see functionally little difference between the homophobe and the Christian. If either of them get their way, gay people will be oppressed. That the Christian wraps up their hatred in patronising """care""" for the gay person changes nothing.

No man, no.

I am very hurt that you think this. Everyone, including people who experience same-sex attraction are valuable for being themselves. You make each day matter because you're you.

We like you for being you. That's sincere. Speaking as a Christian, the last thing we want is to lose you. We know it's not easy. But we love you, we really do love you, and most importantly God loves you.


I find it ironic there are homosexuals who, on one hand, preach disingenuously about love and tolerance and their demand for it, and on the other, subject people who refuse to endorse their position with hatred.

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