Indiana AG: LGBT Parents should be stripped of Rights

[Reko Guire]

I have; you can quite literally take what Indiana said and copy paste it for my thoughts. Again, not sure why this is complicated for you.

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

[Grenartia]

The least you can do is speak your own words, instead of letting someone else speak and think for you.

I'm not under any obligation to do otherwise, either; we do have a thing called concurrence, in both lay usage and in legal arguments, afterall.

And in neither case does it justify you not explaining things in your own terms.

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

That's not how it works. Its not fucking corona.

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

Wouldn't surprise me. Fun Fact relevant to this case: Lesbian couples have the highest domestic abuse ratings of any couple pairing in the United States.

Real "13/50" hours in this thread right now.

[Neanderthaland]

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

I mean, clearly the the heterosexuality of the grandparents didn't "rub off" of the parents, so why on earth would you believe this?

[Neanderthaland]

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

Wouldn't surprise me. Fun Fact relevant to this case: Lesbian couples have the highest domestic abuse ratings of any couple pairing in the United States.

Hmm... I wonder if the author of that study also included findings as to why this occurs...?

"We found evidence that supports the minority stress model - the idea that being part of a minority creates additional stress," he says.

"There are external stressors, like discrimination and violence against gays, and there are internal stressors, such as internalised negative attitudes about homosexuality."

The external stresses on a same-sex relationship include what Carroll describes as the "double closet phenomenon" when victims are reluctant to report abuse because they do not want to be outed to the authorities.

But it is the internal stress, says Carroll, which can be particularly damaging.

"Sometimes homosexual individuals project their negative beliefs and feelings about themselves on to their partner," he says.

"Conversely, we believe that victims of domestic violence in same-sex couples believe, at some level, they deserve the violence because of internalised negative beliefs about themselves."

[Grenartia]

And in neither case does it justify you not explaining things in your own terms.

I've already stated you can quite literally copy and paste what Indiana said and take it as my exact views; not sure why this is complicated for you. Sounds like a personal problem, to be honest.

I have no problem understanding it. The issue is why you let someone else do your talking and thinking. The minute you give up those abilities, you effectively become a slave.

[Necroghastia]

Alright, Nousa, why don't you explain why a sperm donor should have "parental rights?"

Why don't you explain why this

“A birth mother’s wife will never be the biological father of the child, meaning that, whenever a birth-mother’s wife gains presumptive ‘parentage’ status, a biological father’s rights and obligations to the child have necessarily been undermined without proper adjudication,”

is not obvious drivel that fails to take into account transgender people?

[Necroghastia]

Alright, Nousa, why don't you explain why a sperm donor should have "parental rights?"

Why don't you explain why this

is not obvious drivel that fails to take into account transgender people?

"Without proper adjudication" covers it pretty well.

Not really. It's empty legalese that means nothing.

I don't really understand what you're even asking about transsexuals, however.

A trans woman and a cis woman can have a biological child together. A trans man and a cis man can have a biological child together. This is an obvious point that negates Hill's premise that "a birth mother's wife will never be the biological father."

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

It’s interesting that people think there is such a thing as “parental rights”. Maybe we should also argue that there is such a thing as the rights of a master to beat and even kill a slave.. Why not call a spade a spade. Power is power, not “rights”.

How are you more left wing than I, eh?

How are you doing? :3

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I think we disagree on terminology here. I don’t think there can be rights over other humans while you think they can exist.

Thanks for confirming the widespread but uncomfortable belief that socially children aren’t fully people which has been true from ancient history to the present day.

Children are not fully developed enough to have the same rights as adults. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't a child.

>anyone who isn’t a child

Thanks for letting me know that “child” is an insult. Before feminism in many Eurasian societies feminity was also an insult..

I think the implications are fairly clear.

>not fully developed enough to have the same rights as adults

What’s this? Might is right?

[Necroghastia]

Not really. It's empty legalese that means nothing.

That you do not understand it does not make it meaningless jargon, because its well established in case law and precedent with real meaning here. With regards to your example of a sperm donor, as part of the sperm donor process said donor(s) are required to waive their legal rights and in return are absolved of obligations before the actual donation occurs; i.e. proper adjudication.

k so what's the problem lol

A trans woman and a cis woman can have a biological child together. A trans man and a cis man can have a biological child together. This is an obvious point that negates Hill's premise that "a birth mother's wife will never be the biological father."

Namely because trans is a social construct and does not change the underlying biological realities of the sexes? Yes, a Transsexual can have children with a Heterosexual...

You mean a transgender person can have children with a cisgender person. The examples I'm giving are very much in the range of "not hetero."

because of their biological realities, which is in line with what Hill says.

Hill explicitly says "a birth mother's wife," which has nothing to do with "biological realities."

Yes, they may identify as something else, but that doesn't change their chromosomes, no?

Implicit transphobia aside, the chromosomes don't matter in the slightest, because that could change what they're registered as by the government.

[Necroghastia]

k so what's the problem lol

You're the one that brought up the Sperm Donor example, so that's rather on you, no?

You do realize that the case that started this was because of a couple that used artificial insemination right? I'm not the one who first brought it up. It's what the whole thing is about.

If you mean in terms of the legal case presented by Indiana, it's quite obvious; proper adjudication would not be rendered in many cases that would be effected by the lower court's precedent. In particular, adoptions or children from prior relationships.

You would think they'd mention those are the cases they're talking about if that was what they're actually thinking about. Has such an alteration of the birth cert in those circumstances even been attempted? Been asked for by anyone? Hell, mechanically how would this court decision affect the people you claim it would? At all?

You mean a transgender person can have children with a cisgender person. The examples I'm giving are very much in the range of "not hetero."

I understand you wish to play semantics with your socially constructed terms, but it's not really relevant to your point.

All terms are "socially constructed." That what language is.
I'm not "playing semantics," I'm correcting you. Heterosexuality has nothing to do with my example.

Hill explicitly says "a birth mother's wife," which has nothing to do with "biological realities."

You need to go re-read the brief and article in question because you don't even understand what Indiana's talking about in their case and this shows it. Hill does specifically speak of biological fathers, which is rather relevant in a case involving a Lesbian couple no? You've chosen to engage in a cherry pick of a single term from the brief instead of looking at what the whole brief is even about.

Implicit transphobia aside, the chromosomes don't matter in the slightest, because that could change what they're registered as by the government.

Given Hill (and thus Indiana) are talking about biological fathers, chromosomes very much matter given, yah know, basic biology and the overall legal thrust being made here? Again, you seem pretty ununiformed on this and operating on a knee jerk basis; might I suggest taking a step back and objectively re-reading the case and the reporting on it before continuing this?

Yeesh, and you're trying to talk down to me about "playing semantics?" Once again, it's perfectly possibly for a birth mother's wife to be a biological father if said wife is transgender. This basic fact undermines Hill's claim that a "birth mother's wife will never be the biological father."
(also lol @ how you're telling me to read up on the case again when you're trying to tell me *i* brought sperm donation into this come onnnnnn)

[Adamede]

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

1: I doubt that’s how it works

2: So what if it is? It’s not like they can out breed the straights.

[Grenartia]

Children are not fully developed enough to have the same rights as adults. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't a child.

>anyone who isn’t a child

Thanks for letting me know that “child” is an insult. Before feminism in many Eurasian societies feminity was also an insult..

I think the implications are fairly clear.

>not fully developed enough to have the same rights as adults

What’s this? Might is right?

Blatantly bad arguments blatantly made in bad faith. You're clearly another EdgyPoster^TM.

The simple fact is that children are not capable of the kind of thinking necessary to safely and responsibly exercise the rights adults have. And honestly, I'm worried you're one of those "children can give consent to sex" types based on your arguments so far.

[The New California Republic]

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

Nonsense.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

>anyone who isn’t a child

Thanks for letting me know that “child” is an insult. Before feminism in many Eurasian societies feminity was also an insult..

I think the implications are fairly clear.

>not fully developed enough to have the same rights as adults

What’s this? Might is right?

Blatantly bad arguments blatantly made in bad faith. You're clearly another EdgyPoster^TM.

The simple fact is that children are not capable of the kind of thinking necessary to safely and responsibly exercise the rights adults have. And honestly, I'm worried you're one of those "children can give consent to sex" types based on your arguments so far.

I’m not one of the pedophilia advocates.

Instead I’m just someone who is really tired of parentism which smells like China.

[Grenartia]

Blatantly bad arguments blatantly made in bad faith. You're clearly another EdgyPoster^TM.

The simple fact is that children are not capable of the kind of thinking necessary to safely and responsibly exercise the rights adults have. And honestly, I'm worried you're one of those "children can give consent to sex" types based on your arguments so far.

I’m not one of the pedophilia advocates.

Instead I’m just someone who is really tired of parentism which smells like China.

Ok, cool, so you admit there is a case where children clearly cannot be treated the same as adults.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I’m not one of the pedophilia advocates.

Instead I’m just someone who is really tired of parentism which smells like China.

Ok, cool, so you admit there is a case where children clearly cannot be treated the same as adults.

I agree. Children can not reasonably consent to self-harm.

[Grenartia]

Ok, cool, so you admit there is a case where children clearly cannot be treated the same as adults.

I agree. Children can not reasonably consent to self-harm.

Not just self-harm. Sexual activity as well.

Furthermore, children simply are not capable of the kinds of decision making necessary to function on the same level as adults. This isn't even an opinion, this is basic fucking fact. Psychology 101. Acting like this is not true is not just factually wrong and intellectually dishonest, it is downright harmful to the very children you seek to help.

You're sick and tired of authoritarian parenting? So am I. But the alternative isn't no parenting whatsoever, so stop ripping off Rothbard's Ethics of Liberty.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I agree. Children can not reasonably consent to self-harm.

Not just self-harm. Sexual activity as well.

Furthermore, children simply are not capable of the kinds of decision making necessary to function on the same level as adults. This isn't even an opinion, this is basic fucking fact. Psychology 101. Acting like this is not true is not just factually wrong and intellectually dishonest, it is downright harmful to the very children you seek to help.

You're sick and tired of authoritarian parenting? So am I. But the alternative isn't no parenting whatsoever, so stop ripping off Rothbard's Ethics of Liberty.

Well, Libertarianism and children are incompatible.

[Kernen]

Not just self-harm. Sexual activity as well.

Furthermore, children simply are not capable of the kinds of decision making necessary to function on the same level as adults. This isn't even an opinion, this is basic fucking fact. Psychology 101. Acting like this is not true is not just factually wrong and intellectually dishonest, it is downright harmful to the very children you seek to help.

You're sick and tired of authoritarian parenting? So am I. But the alternative isn't no parenting whatsoever, so stop ripping off Rothbard's Ethics of Liberty.

Well, Libertarianism and children are incompatible.

Thus the existence of parental rights.

[San Lumen]

You unironically think kids will become fucked up from having two dads?

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

That is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.

[Atheris]

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

Nonsense.

I think it was a joke.

[The New California Republic]

The homosexuality could rub off on them.

Nonsense.

I think it was a joke.

No, in light of this comment it wasn't:

I don’t care what kind of sex people have but the idea that gay couples and married couples should be treated equally is insane.

[Atheris]

I think it was a joke.

No, in light of this comment it wasn't:

I don’t care what kind of sex people have but the idea that gay couples and married couples should be treated equally is insane.

Oh, darn. I stand corrected, then.

[Senkaku]

Not just self-harm. Sexual activity as well.

Furthermore, children simply are not capable of the kinds of decision making necessary to function on the same level as adults. This isn't even an opinion, this is basic fucking fact. Psychology 101. Acting like this is not true is not just factually wrong and intellectually dishonest, it is downright harmful to the very children you seek to help.

You're sick and tired of authoritarian parenting? So am I. But the alternative isn't no parenting whatsoever, so stop ripping off Rothbard's Ethics of Liberty.

Well, Libertarianism and children are incompatible.

Given that children are an essential and eternal reality of human life, this should perhaps tell you something about the feasibility of your version of libertarianism