NationStates

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:51 pm**

Page wrote:
Galloism wrote:Reading the case it looks like it's the carveout in the law that's causing the court to go against this. Because the ordinance is not content neutral.

They reference heavily where doctors in Florida were prohibited to ask their patients if they owned guns, and that rule was struck down - because the doctor could ask if the patient owned anything else, IE, a dresser, or a scythe. Therefore, this was a restriction on the content of the doctor's speech - not a regulation on the practice of medicine per se.

Here, we have a similar thing. The ordinance restricted counseling based on the content. Counseling someone to try and "push" them into being gay was explicitly protected by law, while counseling someone to try and "push" them to be straight was explicitly banned by law. This means you cannot know if they broke the law or not without analyzing the content of their speech, and this means it gets strict scrutiny by law.

To help understand why this line was struck, imagine two laws:

1) Gathering of persons over 25 is barred within 100 feet of an abortion clinic
2) Gathering of persons over 25 is barred within 100 feet of an abortion clinic if they are pro-choice protestors

The first one is a general restriction on groups, and would likely face intermediate scrutiny. The second one is a regulation of content and thus receives strict scrutiny.

I haven't heard of anyone pushing people to be gay, but are you saying that if the law instead said it was forbidden to try to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity rather than specifying it's forbidden to try to make a gay person straight or a trans person cis, then it would be okay?

I'm going to use a good legal answer and say probably.

It would receive a lower standard of scrutiny, likely intermediate, and therefore far more likely to survive a challenge.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:51 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:For those wondering this is only about talk only therapy.

So electrocuting your kids for being turned on while looking at members of the same sex is still banned as are the other medieval cures that have been created.

Let's say hypothetically every day I tell my kid they're a piece of shit and that they are undeserving of love or friendship. Is that okay because all I'm doing is talking?

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:51 pm**

Galloism wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
So what does this mean for the actual law banning conversion therapy on minors?

Basically, they either need to create a content neutral law (banning counseling on gender and orientation generally), or such counselings can proceed.

It doesn't mean people are pulling out the car batteries again.

Never said anything about batteries, and why would they need to have all such therapy go. Why could they instead make it so that people can neither be pushed one way or the other? A person who is straight should not be pushed "converted" to being gay anymore then a person who is gay should be "converted" to straight.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:52 pm**

Disgraces wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:Why would anyone want to become straight?

Because it's the way humans are supposed to be.

Humans aren't supposed to be anything.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:52 pm**

Bluepillar wrote:
Romextly wrote:What? Being gay doesn't make you a criminal or more likely to commit a crime.

Do you even know any gay people? This is an ancient meme.

I am friend to 2 gay people and a asexual and a bisexual. So yeah, I have friends

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:52 pm**

I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:52 pm**

Disgraces wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:Why would anyone want to become straight?

Because it's the way humans are supposed to be.

Nobody is 'supposed to be' anything.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

Presidents can't veto court rulings.

And I don't even know if Biden would if he could. His head is so far up his ass with this unity fantasy of his that he wouldn't want to make homophobes feel like he isn't listening to them.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Galloism wrote:Basically, they either need to create a content neutral law (banning counseling on gender and orientation generally), or such counselings can proceed.

It doesn't mean people are pulling out the car batteries again.

Never said anything about batteries, and why would they need to have all such therapy go. Why could they instead make it so that people can neither be pushed one way or the other? A person who is straight should not be pushed "converted" to being gay anymore then a person who is gay should be "converted" to straight.

If they did that, it would get a lower standard of scrutiny and would be more likely to survive a challenge.

But that requires a change in law. All the court can do is knock down the unconstitutional law. It's up to the local legislature (in this case, the city council) to craft a new one that complies with the constitution.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

The president can't veto that

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Disgraces wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:Why would anyone want to become straight?

Because it's the way humans are supposed to be.

The concept of straightness didn't even exist in numerous cultures for aaaages. Our current view of sexuality in the US comes from the fucking Tudors, who, like with a lot of things, had an extreeemely warped view of tings.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

That's not how the presidency works.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Romextly wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:

But the people performing conversion therapy aren't misinforming people and committing fraud? You can't just change someone's sexuality for them, that's not something that can be done.
Disgraces wrote:

Alright then, I'll rephrase my argument.

If I worked for a company and promised them that "I will create a computer virus that will infect your rivals' computer systems and feed anything that goes into their servers to yours. All you need to do is sign this contract stating how I will do it." And then they did sign it, because having access to that intel is immensely powerful. Now, obviously they're unethical for accepting such an offer, which is illegal, but I am too for giving them the offer in the first place. Just because I'm not misleading my client doesn't mean I'm doing something right.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm**

Tsaivao wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:For those wondering this is only about talk only therapy.

So electrocuting your kids for being turned on while looking at members of the same sex is still banned as are the other medieval cures that have been created.

Verbal abuse is still abuse. You can traumatize people with words the same way you can with an iron rod, it's just harder to see the side-effects of it.

I do not disagree. It is worth noting this is only the preliminary injunction phase of the trial. Once we get to latter phases of the trial with evidence submitted it may be possible for the government to meet its burden in banning this "therapy".

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:54 pm**

Page wrote:
Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

Presidents can't veto court rulings.

Ah my mistake then, sorry.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:54 pm**

Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

There is not a thing Biden can do about this ruling. I hope you are not from the US or are young enough not to have taken NSL because that is a very bad understanding og how the US system of government works.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:54 pm**

Deacarsia wrote:This is good.

No.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:55 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Galloism wrote:Basically, they either need to create a content neutral law (banning counseling on gender and orientation generally), or such counselings can proceed.

It doesn't mean people are pulling out the car batteries again.

Never said anything about batteries, and why would they need to have all such therapy go. Why could they instead make it so that people can neither be pushed one way or the other? A person who is straight should not be pushed "converted" to being gay anymore then a person who is gay should be "converted" to straight.

That would be a perfectly reasonable law in my opinion. I'm open to banning conversion/transition therapy for minors, the issue is that the laws being passed allow for therapy in one direction but not the other.

For adults, go to whatever therapy you want, you're of age, you can make your own decisions.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:55 pm**

Wtf do y'all mean humans aren't supposed to be heterosexual? Did you forget about reproduction?

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:55 pm**

Disgraces wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:Why would anyone want to become straight?

Because it's the way humans are supposed to be.

That's like saying humans are supposed to have brown eyes.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:55 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Aeritai wrote:I doubt this ruling would last... Once Biden becomes President he will most likely veto the ruling or something.

There is not a thing Biden can do about this ruling. I hope you are not from the US or are young enough not to have taken NSL because that is a very bad understanding og how the US system of government works.

Sorry it was just a mistake my bad.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:56 pm**

Aeritai wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:There is not a thing Biden can do about this ruling. I hope you are not from the US or are young enough not to have taken NSL because that is a very bad understanding og how the US system of government works.

Sorry it was just mistake my bad.

Don't worry about it. The US system of government is weird.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:56 pm**

Disgraces wrote:Wtf do y'all mean humans aren't supposed to be heterosexual? Did you forget about reproduction?

Every individual human doesn't need to reproduce any more than every individual lion needs to hunt.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:56 pm**

Disgraces wrote:Wtf do y'all mean humans aren't supposed to be heterosexual? Did you forget about reproduction?

You suppose there's actually meaning in biological mechanisms. This is a great chain of being level mistake.

Posted: **Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 pm**

Disgraces wrote:
Tsaivao wrote:Why would anyone want to become straight?

Because it's the way humans are supposed to be.

This is, by the way, false

NationStates

US Court Rules First Amendment Protects Conversion Therapy