Hungary and Poland blocked EU recovery package (resolved)

[Novo Portugal]

And what's wrong with a United States of Europe, exactly? Because as it stands right now, a unified EU would benefit immensely in asserting itself globally as well as fighting both reliance on the United States and economic subjugation to Russia and China.

Aside from that, though, Brussels can think whatever it wants, but at the end of the day the EU is run by it's members, so your point is pretty much moot regardless of how true it might be. Hungary and Poland don't want to play by the EU's rules? Fine, but don't expect the EU to economically help them either. You can't have your cake and eat it too, y'know.

Maybe the fact that millions of people of Europe don't want that? Maybe because nations of centuries are not that interested in alienating their sovereignty, maybe because we don't have to aglomerate different peoples in huge made up countries because of international pressure or making blocs for economic purposes or wtv. What is it with you guys and this idea that a united states of Europe is either logical or beneficial is beyond me, power and money isn't everything, the right to self rule is something which millions of Europeans hold dear and for centuries our ancestors died for that. Stop thinking that it's that simple and beneficial when in fact you're all completely ignoring the fact that many countries would just be neglected by the boys in Brussels and the big boys of the EU, as one would suspect seeing the different populations and economies. On top of that you have rivalries between countries that aren't really going away anytime soon.

[Novo Portugal]

Seriously, either some of you are completely oblivious to the reality of Europe and the growing euroceptism and of parties who are against it all over, you haven't seen brexit happening either, calls from Italian opposition and even talks in many more other members or just really like to debate on things by presuming someone wants it when it's really not in no one's minds.

The EU isn't even capable of decisions most of the time, let alone unifying at this point and then you even start talking about the US joining, there's levels to wishful thinking but seriously, don't speak only as technocrats who only see numbers and unwanted unloved projects, and speak more from what's the reality of individual nations and it's people's wishes.

[The Alma Mater]

Seriously, either some of you are completely oblivious to the reality of Europe and the growing euroceptism and of parties who are against it all over, you haven't seen brexit happening either, calls from Italian opposition and even talks in many more other members or just really like to debate on things by presuming someone wants it when it's really not in no one's minds.

I admit I missed the Italy thing. Why are they opposed to the EU, since that is where they keep begging ?

[The Restored Danelaw]

Seriously, either some of you are completely oblivious to the reality of Europe and the growing euroceptism and of parties who are against it all over, you haven't seen brexit happening either, calls from Italian opposition and even talks in many more other members or just really like to debate on things by presuming someone wants it when it's really not in no one's minds.

I admit I missed the Italy thing. Why are they opposed to the EU, since that is where they keep begging ?

It's really funny to me how it's consistently the countries being fed by the EU's cash who're more glaringly Eurosceptic. Well, barring England but that can really be excused to a degree, given British history.

[Plzen]

It's really funny to me how it's consistently the countries being fed by the EU's cash who're more glaringly Eurosceptic. Well, barring England but that can really be excused to a degree, given British history.

I'm going to speculate and say that poverty is the root cause of both. Poverty attracts EU support and poverty causes eurosceptism, so countries that get EU support tend to be the same countries that are intensely eurosceptic.

[Dumbandumba]

Hungarexit and Pol-end would be followed by extra restrictions on Polish and Hungarian workers in western Europe.

- that would alleviate the labour surplus in those parts, thereby finally allowing for the much needed appreciation of labour (= wage increase) that has engendered so much anti EU sentiment in the west.
Meanwhile, the return of all those workers to their native countries would flood said parties with voters that the current governments have been trying to disenfranchise - because of their anti-nationalist outlook.

Let it all come to a clash, two exits, and major electoral shifts.

[Ifreann]

Explain to me how, say, Italy is real but Europe is not.

The nationalist wave of the late 18th and early 19th century was responsible for the unification of Italy and Germany, mostly because of a shared language and culture, and the absence of a central figure. In the case of Germany, that was the Holy Roman Empire, and in Italy, it was the power and prestige of the Papacy waning. Italy shared a common language, religion and culture, and, with the exception of Catholic Bavaria, so did Germany. Europe has no unifying factor, each region has different languages, customs, religions, and economic situations. The only unifying factor one may pose for Europe would be race, which I believe to be purely a social construct

So only countries with the one language are real? What about the UK? Or Switzerland? Or Belgium?

---

Only an American could think that European identity is fake but national identities of European nations, many of which were created from other nations and had wildly varying territories over history and from time to time ceased to exist, are real.

Don't even start with that because it's clearly a lie , Portugal is since 1139 one country one people one culture, how is this artificial? How's France artificial? I'm European just like a Chinese is an Asian. It's my continent not my country.

Every country is artificial, obviously. Countries are things made by people, they are as artificial as cars or skyscrapers.

[Plzen]

Every country is artificial, obviously. Countries are things made by people, they are as artificial as cars or skyscrapers.

Arguably even more artificial.

A car exists as a physical entity in objective, observable reality. I, or for that matter anyone else, can see it, can hear it, can touch it, and if they're particularly unwise they can even taste it.

On the contrary, what, exactly, is a nation again?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Hungarexit and Pol-end ...

Hungoaway ?

[Loben III]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

Germany has no one to blame but themselves for their spinelessness, tad bit ironic that they had the finest army in western Europe during the Cold War.

[Plzen]

Germany has no one to blame but themselves for their spinelessness.

I mean, Western Europe is surrounded in this bubble of (relatively) stable countries they're on (relatively) good relations with. Since the Iron Curtain collapsed in '91 they haven't really been under any serious military threat at home. Whereas Poland has a land border with Belarus, which is a firm Russian ally, and Ukraine, which has been in on-and-off civil war.

Funding follows (perceived) necessity.

[Loben III]

Germany has no one to blame but themselves for their spinelessness.

I mean, Western Europe is surrounded in this bubble of countries they're on (relatively) good relations with. Since the Iron Curtain collapsed in '91 they haven't really been under any serious military threat at home. Whereas Poland has a land border with Belarus, which is a firm Russian ally, and Ukraine, which has been in on-and-off civil war.

Funding follows (perceived) necessity.

And say Poland gets suspended from the EU and Russia swoops in, then what? I highly doubt the German politicians would do anything.

[The Restored Danelaw]

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

Germany has no one to blame but themselves for their spinelessness, tad bit ironic that they had the finest army in western Europe during the Cold War.

To be honest this is less "spinelessness" and more... do they need a military? I mean the answer is obviously yes, but back in the Cold War, they were the first country to see combat in any possible war against the Soviet Bloc -and they, more than anyone in the west, knew what fighting Soviets looks like. Right now, they're surrounded by allies with whom they have both good relationship and of the stability of whom they have little doubt.

[Plzen]

And say Poland gets suspended from the EU and Russia swoops in, then what? I highly doubt the German politicians would do anything.

NATO being a separate institution from the European Union, Article 5 will be triggered regardless of whether or not Poland is an EU member and the British, French, and most notably the Americans would be treaty-bound to intervene.

In the event that NATO dissolves and Russia invades the Baltic States and/or Poland without triggering American intervention, I suspect that you will then see an immediate and significant rise in the willingness of Western European countries to maintain well-funded militaries. Right now defence really isn't a major concern for most of them.

[Loben III]

And say Poland gets suspended from the EU and Russia swoops in, then what? I highly doubt the German politicians would do anything.

NATO being a separate institution from the European Union, Article 5 will be triggered regardless of whether or not Poland is an EU member and the British, French, and most notably the Americans would be treaty-bound to intervene.

In the event that NATO dissolves and Russia invades the Baltic States and/or Poland without triggering American intervention, I suspect that you will then see an immediate and significant rise in the willingness of Western European countries to maintain well-funded militaries. Right now defence really isn't a major concern for most of them.

Living comfortably and getting Americans to do the dying for you tends to do that.

[Ifreann]

NATO being a separate institution from the European Union, Article 5 will be triggered regardless of whether or not Poland is an EU member and the British, French, and most notably the Americans would be treaty-bound to intervene.

In the event that NATO dissolves and Russia invades the Baltic States and/or Poland without triggering American intervention, I suspect that you will then see an immediate and significant rise in the willingness of Western European countries to maintain well-funded militaries. Right now defence really isn't a major concern for most of them.

Living comfortably and getting Americans to do the dying for you tends to do that.

What dying have Americans been doing for western Europe?

[Loben III]

Living comfortably and getting Americans to do the dying for you tends to do that.

What dying have Americans been doing for western Europe?

I should’ve said potentially. Not like Western Europe would lift a finger for the Baltic’s or Poland at this rate.

[Ifreann]

What dying have Americans been doing for western Europe?

I should’ve said potentially. Not like Western Europe would lift a finger for the Baltic’s or Poland at this rate.

How shameful of us to dishonour the potential sacrifice of American lives in the potential pursuit of America's own foreign policy interests.

[Loben III]

I should’ve said potentially. Not like Western Europe would lift a finger for the Baltic’s or Poland at this rate.

How shameful of us to dishonour the potential sacrifice of American lives in the potential pursuit of America's own foreign policy interests.

Just saying, I’m an advocate of the sizing down of nato as it were and focusing on Eastern Europe and Asia. Leaner, better, no Western European dead weight to carry.

[Picairn]

To be honest this is less "spinelessness" and more... do they need a military? I mean the answer is obviously yes, but back in the Cold War, they were the first country to see combat in any possible war against the Soviet Bloc -and they, more than anyone in the west, knew what fighting Soviets looks like. Right now, they're surrounded by allies with whom they have both good relationship and of the stability of whom they have little doubt.

This. Modern Russia is also not the Soviet Union anymore, I doubt they can even reach past Warsaw in a war.

[Greed and Death]

Hungary and Poland block funding and now Moderna blocks your vaccine. it must be rough to be European these days.

[Ifreann]

How shameful of us to dishonour the potential sacrifice of American lives in the potential pursuit of America's own foreign policy interests.

Just saying, I’m an advocate of the sizing down of nato as it were and focusing on Eastern Europe and Asia. Leaner, better, no Western European dead weight to carry.

And I like reminding people that America tries to keep its allies and customers from falling under Russian influence because that's in America's own interests. People sometimes act like America only spends so much money on tanks and bombs because the useless Euros keep spending money on healthcare and social welfare, but no, of course not, America doesn't have such a huge military for our sake, you have it for your own sake. You don't use your military to protect us, you use it to keep us politically aligned with you and against your rivals.

[Phoenicaea]

discussion in these last pages is quite clueless, it is vague blames for supposed failures. thing i hope for is nato gets disbanded, whatever this may bring after the present political swamp.

[Greed and Death]

Every country is artificial, obviously. Countries are things made by people, they are as artificial as cars or skyscrapers.

Arguably even more artificial.

A car exists as a physical entity in objective, observable reality. I, or for that matter anyone else, can see it, can hear it, can touch it, and if they're particularly unwise they can even taste it.

On the contrary, what, exactly, is a nation again?

You are sounding very libertarian.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

And what's wrong with a United States of Europe, exactly? Because as it stands right now, a unified EU would benefit immensely in asserting itself globally as well as fighting both reliance on the United States and economic subjugation to Russia and China.

Aside from that, though, Brussels can think whatever it wants, but at the end of the day the EU is run by it's members, so your point is pretty much moot regardless of how true it might be. Hungary and Poland don't want to play by the EU's rules? Fine, but don't expect the EU to economically help them either. You can't have your cake and eat it too, y'know.

Maybe the fact that millions of people of Europe don't want that? Maybe because nations of centuries are not that interested in alienating their sovereignty, maybe because we don't have to aglomerate different peoples in huge made up countries because of international pressure or making blocs for economic purposes or wtv. What is it with you guys and this idea that a united states of Europe is either logical or beneficial is beyond me, power and money isn't everything, the right to self rule is something which millions of Europeans hold dear and for centuries our ancestors died for that. Stop thinking that it's that simple and beneficial when in fact you're all completely ignoring the fact that many countries would just be neglected by the boys in Brussels and the big boys of the EU, as one would suspect seeing the different populations and economies. On top of that you have rivalries between countries that aren't really going away anytime soon.

If the EU united, what makes you think it would be led by Brussels? Because the Euroskeptics tell you so? The reality of a united EU wouldn't just be """""direct rule from Brussels""""" like everyone here worries about. And before you accuse me of being a "pro-EU liberal" like some others, I don't like corporate dominance in the market and I definitely hate the idea that free trade creates free governments. Neoliberalism, in my opinion, is a failing establishment in dire need of serious reform, especially since it's caused wage stagnation, corporate subjugation of the working class, and other major issues that will need to be resolved if they wish to survive. But that's a subject for another time.

Anyways, I only say that the EU should try and get rid of Poland and Hungary because otherwise the system will continue to be sabotaged and won't work. Obviously the EU has problems, but to think it's impossible to reform them or that justifies "leaving" is unrealistic and ignores the very real economic impact the EU has on Europe's markets. If you want to free yourself from US or Russian/Chinese influence (as I presume you would, you seem keen on an independent and self-reliant Europe), then banding together under this sort of EU-type confederation might be your only hope in having a Europe free from outside influence.

Also, not to assume what people want, but if nobody wants to be in the EU, then why haven't other governments attempted to try and exit the EU either? I mean surely the people would support it, correct?

Seriously, either some of you are completely oblivious to the reality of Europe and the growing euroceptism and of parties who are against it all over, you haven't seen brexit happening either, calls from Italian opposition and even talks in many more other members or just really like to debate on things by presuming someone wants it when it's really not in no one's minds.

Ah yes, calling a united EU "beneficial to Europe" means I'm one of those DASTARLY, EVIL EUROCRATS despite living on the other side of the pond.

Dude, nobody has assumed that Europeans want a united EU. But what we are saying is that Hungary and Poland shouldn't be allowed to bypass the EU's rules while still receiving benefits.

The EU isn't even capable of decisions most of the time

Something something democratic system.

let alone unifying at this point and then you even start talking about the US joining there's levels to wishful thinking but seriously, don't speak only as technocrats who only see numbers and unwanted unloved projects, and speak more from what's the reality of individual nations and it's people's wishes.

As if you know what the people want, don't you

Tell me, aside from that one guy who wanted the US and Canada to join the EU to replace Hungary and Poland, who here has proposed any "unrealistic ideas?" Most people here seem to be concluding the same basic thing: Hungary and Poland should be stopped from exploiting the EU, and nothing more. The way that's accomplished seems to be the point of disagreement here.