Hungary and Poland blocked EU recovery package (resolved)

[Senkaku]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

[Nakena]

Why? Because it would be hard or inconvenient, it's totally off the table? If you're not prepared to use full measures and you want to leave them a clear way to triumph in the conflict, why bother even trying to solve the problem in the first place?

I dont think there is a EU mechanism for ejection unless like, Orban starts to perform virgin sacrifices or something like that.

I have zero confidence in the Germans or the smaller countries to show any backbone this time around, and my faith in the French is minimal at best, since even if they do end up having a spine they'll probably be alone.

Germany isnt going to do much. because reasons. But the pressure of the MSM and certain twitter elites is mounting.

Okay, we agree. Their aversion to defense spending is pathological. Why do you always seem to think me saying they should do something is the same as me saying they will do it?

Yes. And wat.

If Trump didn't teach them that we're not reliable enough to cling onto as a security blanket, I don't know what will. In the absence of any German will to act, the US should step up to the plate to punish the Hungarians and Poles, but I don't think we will, and we also can't just permanently act as Germany's all-protecting mama bear so they don't have to trouble themselves with the thought of having to make preparations for violence or conflict. They need to face the cold hard truth and get in bed with Paris, because the domestic political situation over here makes it very difficult for us to reliably help them with this sort of thing.

Germans were raised for decades to worship the US as overlords (love or hate it) and are unable to think for themself. The current german state is an US creation too. That being said theres a strong other (anti-american) tendency in germany that favors Russia and thinks Putin is cool... other direction same problem.

France on the other hand, very differently, maintained it's independence. To absurd degrees that they live in their own microcosm and pocket universe, where they stand, of course, at the center of the universe.

[Claorica]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

*Germany Invades Poland Again*

*Poland plays the Uno Reverse Card*

[Nakena]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

Poland is very afraid of russian invasion. Look up Eagle Guardian.

[Senkaku]

Why? Because it would be hard or inconvenient, it's totally off the table? If you're not prepared to use full measures and you want to leave them a clear way to triumph in the conflict, why bother even trying to solve the problem in the first place?

I dont think there is a EU mechanism for ejection unless like, Orban starts to perform virgin sacrifices or something like that.

People forget that politics are made up and political institutions are just comprised of people. If the other countries want they can just make a mechanism and say they're doing it.

[Nakena]

I dont think there is a EU mechanism for ejection unless like, Orban starts to perform virgin sacrifices or something like that.

People forget that politics are made up and political institutions are just comprised of people. If the other countries want they can just make a mechanism and say they're doing it.

You got this though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7 ... pean_Union

Article 7.1: The mechanism begins with a proposal to find a "Clear Risk of Serious Breach" of EU values either by the Commission, the Parliament or one-third of member states. This is then approved by a two-thirds majority in Parliament. The accused country is then called to answer to the Council, which may then issue recommendations and vote by four-fifths to identify a breach. [8]

Article 7.2: In the event of a "serious and persistent breach" (i.e. the country does not heed the Council's guidance) then the Commission or one-third of countries, approved by a two-thirds majority in Parliament, calls the country to answer to the European Council again. The European Council must then decide unanimously to proceed to Article 7.3.

Article 7.3: Once the European Council has unanimously decided that the breach is still occurring, the Council then votes by qualified majority to suspend rights of the accused country, including voting rights within the Council, until all duties are fulfilled.

[Major-Tom]

Poland is being pretty ballsy for someone in invading distance.

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

That is, until Joe Biden mixes up the "Law and Justice Party" and the "Polish Workers' Party" and decides that wall needs to be torn down.

[Senkaku]

People forget that politics are made up and political institutions are just comprised of people. If the other countries want they can just make a mechanism and say they're doing it.

You got this though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7 ... pean_Union

Article 7.1: The mechanism begins with a proposal to find a "Clear Risk of Serious Breach" of EU values either by the Commission, the Parliament or one-third of member states. This is then approved by a two-thirds majority in Parliament. The accused country is then called to answer to the Council, which may then issue recommendations and vote by four-fifths to identify a breach. [8]

Article 7.2: In the event of a "serious and persistent breach" (i.e. the country does not heed the Council's guidance) then the Commission or one-third of countries, approved by a two-thirds majority in Parliament, calls the country to answer to the European Council again. The European Council must then decide unanimously to proceed to Article 7.3.

Article 7.3: Once the European Council has unanimously decided that the breach is still occurring, the Council then votes by qualified majority to suspend rights of the accused country, including voting rights within the Council, until all duties are fulfilled.

Council has to decide unanimously to proceed to 7.3, which means Hungary and Poland can shield each other. They're going to have to make a new approach.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

Ah yes, I'm now apparently an "EU liberal," despite having no taste for neoliberalism and corporate dominance.

The problem with anything less than trying to get rid of them is that they have repeatedly attempted to screw over the EU and defy their rules. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. And as we saw with Brexit, economic incentives won't be enough to align nations wanting "special treatment" with the EU. They will want to leave anyways, so why shouldn't we give it to them?

[Nakena]

You got this though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7 ... pean_Union

Council has to decide unanimously to proceed to 7.3, which means Hungary and Poland can shield each other. They're going to have to make a new approach.

Yeah it doesnt matters in the end. Like you said people are people. And a LOT of people (governments) will now be mad at Budapest and Warsaw. They will give them shit to eat. Its going to be very nasty. There can be only losers in this drama. On the other hand PL/HU seem to have calculated to go down with flying colours and make their stand and being "based". As said no winners here either. I am curious how this shitshow turns out.

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

Ah yes, I'm now apparently an "EU liberal," despite having no taste for neoliberalism and corporate dominance.

The EU is all about neoliberalism. Its just less so than it used to be.

[Senkaku]

Council has to decide unanimously to proceed to 7.3, which means Hungary and Poland can shield each other. They're going to have to make a new approach.

Yeah it doesnt matters in the end. Like you said people are people. And a LOT of people (governments) will now be mad at Budapest and Warsaw. They will give them shit to eat. Its going to be very nasty. There can be only losers in this drama. On the other hand PL/HU seem to have calculated to go down with flying colours and make their stand and being "based". As said no winners here either. I am curious how this shitshow turns out.

Hopefully the western countries will finally take steps and PiS and Fidesz won't survive the economic ruin that'll then be brought down on their heads. Worst case, it makes them double down, become even more extreme, leave the EU, and go over to the Russians, but at least then everything will be out in the open.

[Nakena]

The problem with anything less than trying to get rid of them is that they have repeatedly attempted to screw over the EU and defy their rules. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. And as we saw with Brexit, economic incentives won't be enough to align nations wanting "special treatment" with the EU. They will want to leave anyways, so why shouldn't we give it to them?

The original idea was that all EU members have to be nominal liberal democracies. PL/HU noticed after a while they can get away with it by moving away from it. Erdogan noticed that pretending to make liberal reforms with EU context allowed him to establish his own regime. In the end it boils down to EU's leadership ignorance. Neither of those three appeared overnight, all of them got big alongside EU and were sometimes propped up by it in the first place. Frankenstein monsters were created.

Brexit is a different topic. Alltogether. Its Cameron having gambled... wrong time, wrong place. Boom. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Hungary and Poland have no intention to leave the EU. they have the intention to stay and have their way within.

[Greater Miami Shores]

It's fair to say stuff got serious now:

Hungary and Poland blocked the EU's historic €1.82 trillion budget-and-recovery package on Monday, setting off what top officials and diplomats branded an institutional crisis with no evident path out of the stalemate.

Even for Brussels, which often sees itself as never better than when managing an emergency, the crisis over the carefully-negotiated response to the coronavirus crisis seemed to confront the bloc with one crisis too many.

The standoff will now be the top item on the agenda when EU heads of state and government meet via videoconference on Thursday, but senior officials warned that they did not expect any resolution by then. Officials were left contemplating an open-ended delay even as EU countries are being battered by a second wave of the pandemic, with many countries in various forms of lockdown, partially paralyzing their economies.

While both Budapest and Warsaw blocked progress, many diplomats and officials placed most of the blame on Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, who has often railed against the EU and its institutions.

"Everybody knows that this is a deadlock," a senior official said. "We are at a crossroads and nobody knows where this is leading. We only know that the whole package cannot be approved as long as we don't have the Hungarians on our side."

"We will continue with consultations, but at a certain point in time, the Hungarians will have to show their cards on the table," the official said. "Otherwise we are in deep shit."

Hungary and Poland blocked the package during a meeting of EU ambassadors on Monday, citing opposition to a new mechanism that would allow the EU to cut off funds to a country found to be violating the rule of law in certain circumstances tied to the budget. The ambassadors were able to approve the rule-of-law mechanism itself despite those objections because it required only a qualified majority. But Hungary and Poland then used their veto power to block a step toward finalizing the so-called Own Resources Decision, a prerequisite for the bloc to borrow money for its new €750 billion recovery fund.

The two countries also signaled that they are withholding political support for the bloc's €1.074 trillion seven-year budget, which is due to start on January 1. Officials were quick to point out that the budget-and-recovery package includes tens of billions for Hungary and Poland, essentially accusing Budapest and Warsaw of harming their own citizens.

Poland and Hungary are both major recipients of EU funds — and have been very heavily hit by the second wave of the coronavirus. Officials and diplomats said that Orbán had refused to budge even after a series of meetings and personal entreaties, including from German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Council President Charles Michel, and top officials from France, Italy, Spain and Portugal — some of the countries worst affected by the coronavirus.

"Even after having had discussions with the German chancellor and the pressure from the southern countries," the senior official said. "Even after all that, and even with all the money that is at stake ... there is no movement. They are just fully entrenched."

"Even in tête-à-têtes or very private conversations, nobody sees how this can be solved. If you are confronted with one partner who doesn't understand what's at stake, how urgently this is needed, there is no sense of logic," the official said.
Fudge found wanting

Some diplomats said the EU was paying the inevitable price for not fully resolving the rule-of-law dispute during the July summit when the budget-and-recovery package was approved. To clinch a deal after long negotiations, leaders agreed there would be a link in the budget to rule-of-law standards, but left the wording open to interpretation.

“It’s not the end of the story, we are now entering a political phase," one senior EU diplomat said. "But if the paralysis goes on, we risk finding ourselves with a very reduced budget and only mandatory spending, and no commitment on structural funds, foreign policy etc."

In fact, the options are quite limited.

Even if the 25 other heads of state and government on the European Council were willing to surrender, the seven-year budget requires agreement of the European Parliament, which fought hard in protracted negotiations to fashion the rule-of-law mechanism. Some MEPs had only reluctantly accepted the deal, saying the provision was not tough enough.

And while, theoretically, the recovery plan could be adopted outside the EU's budget — as an "intergovernmental agreement" between countries — European Commission officials had carefully considered that route last spring, and dismissed it as overly complicated and time-consuming, potentially causing a repeat of many difficulties faced in managing the eurozone debt crisis.

The EU institutions and many EU national governments have complained for years about what they view as backsliding by Warsaw and Budapest when it comes to rule of law and other fundamental principles of democracy. But Hungarian and Polish officials said they were being blackmailed by Brussels, and refusing to surrender after years of being held to unfair double standards.

"There is no clear objective criteria or clear definition of principles of rule of law, so you cannot use it as a tool for [a] concrete sanctioning mechanism," Hungarian Justice Minister Judit Varga told reporters.

"The political blackmailing is a very bad and irresponsible tactic from the European Parliament and some member states," the minister said. "It is not our task to find [a] solution to the problem."

Polish officials were equally defiant.

“This is an issue that will determine if Poland is a sovereign subject in the EU community, or it will be politically and institutionally enslaved," Poland's justice minister, Zbigniew Ziobro, told reporters. “It’s not about a rule of law … but about political and institutional slavery."
More obstacles ahead

There is still a long road ahead — and multiple potential hurdles — for the bloc's €1.8 trillion package to become a reality. The seven-year budget will need to win support in the European Parliament and garner unanimous support in the Council before it can come into effect. The Own Resources Decision also needs unanimous support in the Council, before being ratified by member states' national parliaments.

Even if a temporary political fudge could be found in the Council with Poland and Hungary, national parliaments in Budapest and Warsaw will have the opportunity to in effect veto the funding arrangements for the €750 billion recovery fund, if they so choose — adding extra pressure on negotiators. The national parliaments' ratification is, however, a double-edged sword. Some parliaments in countries such as Finland are unlikely to ratify the Own Resources Decision if legislators feel that Hungary and Poland were given too many concessions on the rule-of-law front.

While the decision to block progress did not come as a surprise, there was still an explosion of outrage at Hungary and Poland for standing in the way of what many view as a landmark funding plan.

Germany's Europe minister, Michael Roth, said no country had any reason to oppose the rule-of-law provision unless it intended to violate EU principles. "If you adhere to the principles of the rule of law, then you have nothing to fear," he said.

France's Europe minister, Clément Beaune, insisted a compromise would be found but said Paris was not backing down from its support for the rule-of-law mechanism. "The blocking by Hungary and Poland of the European budget does not call into question our determination on recovery and on the rule of law," Beaune tweeted.

Manfred Weber, the German leader of the center-right European People's Party (EPP) group in the European Parliament, insisted that the rule of law provision did not unfairly target Hungary, Poland or any country. "The peoples of Europe have one single enemy at the moment, and that is the coronavirus, and they expect us to deliver now," he said.

Iratxe García, the leader of the socialist group in the Parliament, said: "Blocking the EU budget is unfair to all Europeans and it only hurts citizens, also Polish and Hungarians."

Still, the senior EU official said it appeared that Orbán was enjoying his spot at the center of the storm.

"This drama is part of the negotiations and he knows that," the senior official said. "The more we talk about him the more he likes it."

Jacopo Barigazzi, Maia de La Baume, Hans von der Burchard and Zosia Wanat contributed reporting.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-in-c ... t-hold-up/

So Poland and Hungary (whom a lot of people either love or hate) have gone full serious and have decided to block the entire help package over their petty drama internally and with the EU and so on. Whatever happened before or was the issue before, now it will get very serious from now on, and more political drama and fallout are likely to follow as consequence. Everything might be on the table, and the final showdown may no longer be able to be delayed.

It's like two trains on the same track on collision course. The game is on. I believe this will end in a complete clusterfuck. Or maybe Hungary and Poland get slided out by a multilateral treaty outside of EU institutions. Which would leave them without cash and likely set a precendant for the further course of events.

my Friend, long time no see, long time no post, long time no Friendly TGs to each other. GMS.

It sounds similar to the Republicans, Trump and Democrats, stimulus checks agreement crisis? Due to the virus that is responsible for the deaths of Americans and Persons all over the world?

Brussels, often sees itself as the Capital City and Government of The United States of Europe, not of a Union of European Nations?

From Hungary and Poland's Perspective, no wonder they are blocking the EU's historic €1.82 trillion budget-and-recovery package? Hungary and Poland blocked the package during a meeting of EU ambassadors on Monday, citing opposition to a new mechanism that would allow the EU to cut off funds to a country found to be violating the rule of law in certain circumstances tied to the budget.

But Hungarian and Polish officials said they were being blackmailed by Brussels, and refusing to surrender after years of being held to unfair double standards.

"There is no clear objective criteria or clear definition of principles of rule of law, so you cannot use it as a tool for [a] concrete sanctioning mechanism," Hungarian Justice Minister Judit Varga told reporters.

"The political blackmailing is a very bad and irresponsible tactic from the European Parliament and some member states," the minister said. "It is not our task to find [a] solution to the problem."

Polish officials were equally defiant.

No wonder they are blocking the EU's historic €1.82 trillion budget-and-recovery package? I would too if I were Hungary and Poland's Prime Minister, President or leader. I happen to RP Budapest Hungary. GMS.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=budapest_hungary

I happen to RP NS Poland:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ns_poland

[Nakena]

Yeah it doesnt matters in the end. Like you said people are people. And a LOT of people (governments) will now be mad at Budapest and Warsaw. They will give them shit to eat. Its going to be very nasty. There can be only losers in this drama. On the other hand PL/HU seem to have calculated to go down with flying colours and make their stand and being "based". As said no winners here either. I am curious how this shitshow turns out.

Hopefully the western countries will finally take steps and PiS and Fidesz won't survive the economic ruin that'll then be brought down on their heads. Worst case, it makes them double down, become even more extreme, leave the EU, and go over to the Russians, but at least then everything will be out in the open.

Theres also the situation with domestic political arithmetics. PiS and Fidesz came to power as opposition against burned out and failed left-liberal governments who pursued neoliberal agendas and ran, with applause from the EU, their countries into the ground. Theres a reason why PiS and Fidesz keep getting voted in. And that are just things that are, and are difficult to change. Altough by now the opposition seems to get it slowly together.

Funny enough the major opposition party in Hungary is unironically (but now supposedly moderate) neo-nazi.

[Salus Maior]

It's kinda telling that the primary reaction of many pro-EU liberals here is "kick them out so they don't disturb our happy party zone"

Just an observation. Given that previously there was quite some attempt at getting countries like Ukraine into the liberal western sphere of influence against the "evil putinist Russia".

What reaction would be appropriate reaction to someone repeatedly going against the EU's values and now intentionally getting people killed just to make a petty point?

I mean, if participating in the EU means toe-ing a very particular ideological line, then it's foundations really are build upon sand.

If the EU keeps pushing this kind of ideological condition on its members, they're just going to keep slipping away one by one. As Britain has, and Poland and Hungary will eventually if the EU remains insistent on trying to govern for them.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Hopefully the western countries will finally take steps and PiS and Fidesz won't survive the economic ruin that'll then be brought down on their heads. Worst case, it makes them double down, become even more extreme, leave the EU, and go over to the Russians, but at least then everything will be out in the open.

Theres also the situation with domestic political arithmetics. PiS and Fidesz came to power as opposition against burned out and failed left-liberal governments who pursued neoliberal agendas and ran, with applause from the EU, their countries into the ground. Theres a reason why PiS and Fidesz keep getting voted in. And that are just things that are, and are difficult to change. Altough by now the opposition seems to get it slowly together.

Funny enough the major opposition party in Hungary is unironically neo-nazi.

Prime Minister Viktor Orbán of Hungary, is a Political Genius, the leftist opposition is very weak and politically stupid.

I edited my post above with another link, after I quoted you like I always do, I also happen to RP NS Poland. GMS.

[Nakena]

What reaction would be appropriate reaction to someone repeatedly going against the EU's values and now intentionally getting people killed just to make a petty point?

I mean, if participating in the EU means toe-ing a very particular ideological line, then it's foundations really are build upon sand.

If the EU keeps pushing this kind of ideological condition on its members, they're just going to keep slipping away one by one. As Britain has, and Poland and Hungary will eventually if the EU remains insistent on trying to govern for them.

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

It's amplified by the ideological differences, namely that Fidesz and PiS follow anti-liberal agendas that collide with the current zeitgeist preferred by the european establishment. Of course, it would be interesting if this would be all an issue if their ideology were different.

The EU didn had probems with the AKP doing the same in Turkey until the Gezi Park Protests and Erdogan being dropping the mask.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I mean, if participating in the EU means toe-ing a very particular ideological line, then it's foundations really are build upon sand.

If the EU keeps pushing this kind of ideological condition on its members, they're just going to keep slipping away one by one. As Britain has, and Poland and Hungary will eventually if the EU remains insistent on trying to govern for them.

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

That is the real issue.

Sorry to strongly disagree with you, my Friend, the real issue is Brussels thinks of itself as the Capital City and Government of The United States of Europe, not of a Union of European Nations. GMS.

[Nakena]

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

That is the real issue.

Sorry to strongly disagree with you, my Friend, the real issue is Brussels thinks of itself as the Capital City and Government of The United States of Europe, not of a Union of European Nations. GMS.

Some brussels liberals and MSM may think that. But they are horribly wrong. Its not the way the EU functions. Of course it doesnt helps them either.

[Salus Maior]

I mean, if participating in the EU means toe-ing a very particular ideological line, then it's foundations really are build upon sand.

If the EU keeps pushing this kind of ideological condition on its members, they're just going to keep slipping away one by one. As Britain has, and Poland and Hungary will eventually if the EU remains insistent on trying to govern for them.

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

That is the real issue.

It's amplified by the ideological differences, namely that Fidesz and PiS follow anti-liberal agendas that collide with the current zeitgeist preferred by the european establishment. Of course, it would be interesting if this would be all an issue if their ideology were different.

The EU didn had probems with the AKP doing the same in Turkey until the Gezi Park Protests and Erdogan being dropping the mask.

Turkey isn't in the EU.

[Nakena]

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

That is the real issue.

It's amplified by the ideological differences, namely that Fidesz and PiS follow anti-liberal agendas that collide with the current zeitgeist preferred by the european establishment. Of course, it would be interesting if this would be all an issue if their ideology were different.

The EU didn had probems with the AKP doing the same in Turkey until the Gezi Park Protests and Erdogan being dropping the mask.

Turkey isn't in the EU.

It's still relevant. Extremly even. Because the EU supported the rise of the AKP in Turkey during the joining process. Which was all just a scheme by Erdogan to use the EU to turn Turkey into an one party state under AKP rule. The EU kept applauding him until fairly late in the game.

In other words the EU has no problem with one party states as long as they push an superficially pro-EU agenda. Which would make the PL/HU drama less a system than a ideological question.

[Salus Maior]

Turkey isn't in the EU.

It's still relevant. Extremly even. Because the EU supported the rise of the AKP in Turkey during the joining process. Which was all just a scheme by Erdogan to use the EU to turn Turkey into an one party state under AKP rule. The EU kept applauding him until fairly late in the game.

In other words the EU has no problem with one party states as long as they push an superficially pro-EU agenda.

I'd still argue that is different from policing member states.

[Nakena]

It's still relevant. Extremly even. Because the EU supported the rise of the AKP in Turkey during the joining process. Which was all just a scheme by Erdogan to use the EU to turn Turkey into an one party state under AKP rule. The EU kept applauding him until fairly late in the game.

In other words the EU has no problem with one party states as long as they push an superficially pro-EU agenda.

I'd still argue that is different from policing member states.

Not really. The EU did "police" Turkey as well, with Erdogans support to screen them for EU compatibility.

The EU (Specifically Olli Rehn and Günter Verheugen) were instrumental in Erdogans rise to Sultan of Turkey. They helped giving him the foreign pressure and support he needed.

[Claorica]

They have one of the strongest militaries in the EU thanks to Germany's spinelessness and France's post-colonial thirst for maintaining an informal empire, and the protection of the American military, so I don't think they're worried about that, at least coming from the west.

That is, until Joe Biden mixes up the "Law and Justice Party" and the "Polish Workers' Party" and decides that wall needs to be torn down.

Not gonna lie, if war somehow broke out between Poland and Hungary I would absolutely 110% betray the US in support of Poland and/or Hungary.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

The condition of EU membership is, as things stand currently, being a liberal democracy and all that jazz in the contemporary sense. Orban has been attempting to establish an semi one party state in Hungary since about ten years and theres similar tendencies in Poland with the PiS.

That is the real issue.

Sorry to strongly disagree with you, my Friend, the real issue is Brussels thinks of itself as the Capital City and Government of The United States of Europe, not of a Union of European Nations. GMS.

And what's wrong with a United States of Europe, exactly? Because as it stands right now, a unified EU would benefit immensely in asserting itself globally as well as fighting both reliance on the United States and economic subjugation to Russia and China.

Aside from that, though, Brussels can think whatever it wants, but at the end of the day the EU is run by it's members, so your point is pretty much moot regardless of how true it might be. Hungary and Poland don't want to play by the EU's rules? Fine, but don't expect the EU to economically help them either. You can't have your cake and eat it too, y'know.